Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Candypants]

Hay guys. I'm a PM bowser main that's looking to start really putting work into melee. The armor on yoshi looks really appealing so I'd like to ask what should I work on having not played much yoshi before now?

 

[Icyo]

Hay guys. I'm a PM bowser main that's looking to start really putting work into melee. The armor on yoshi looks really appealing so I'd like to ask what should I work on having not played much yoshi before now?

Watch some videos of good Yoshi players(aMSa, Hamyojo, etc.). Figure out what tech they're using most and practice that. This thread is an excellent resource: http://smashboards.com/threads/some-yoshi-information.351635/

Above all else, work on basic movement.

 

[Pάρί]

What are some moves I can use for spacing?
Also how do I edgeguard with Yoshi?

 

[Icyo]

What are some moves I can use for spacing?
Also how do I edgeguard with Yoshi?

I don't really know how to answer that first question...but I'll try my best to answer the second one.
Edge guarding is matchup dependent. Some come back to the stage easier and Yoshi has fewer options when edgeguarding them.

Let's look at Captain Falcon's recovery as an example. His Up-B is a very linear move. He only has two options: grab the ledge or land on the stage. We want to try and predict which option he'll take. Usually, if you're on stage, he'll go for the ledge. With this in mind, we can bait out grabbing the ledge by simply standing on stage. We want to position ourselves so that we can run off and grab the ledge before he can.This happens a lot when he's recovering from above. Even if he does end up landing on stage, we still have time to get up and punish. If he's recovering from below, we can usually set up so that we can dsmash him and hit him away. Example: http://gfycat.com/MediumSaneDoe

 

[Purpletuce]

For spacing, your dtilt and bair are super good, but more than anything your movement is what needs to be getting them offguard. If you only dashdance and zone with bair, you will lose nuetral to half the cast, alternatively, if all you do is tons of DJC & wavealnding on platforms, a good half the cast can just start swatting at large areas above them, and will probably get you eventually. You need to mix in a variety of tools to be effective, and a large amount of them aren't going to be very intuitive.

For example, last time I was in tourney I had to play a good marth on FD, and lived to nearly 200%, and he was at 100ish. He was getting greedy with Fsmash, and I knew I could afford to risk my last stock, so I used downB in neutral to read his Fsmash and it worked. In 99% of situations that is a terrible option...

Similarly you don't have any single edgeguard tool that is super dominant, and you usually won't be able to cover all of their options. I think edgeguarding situations are often obvious when they're happening, and there is no shortage of aMSa showcasing tons of options available to Yoshi. If there is any specific area you're having trouble with that might be a better topic.

 

[Noyu]

So I recently took perhapsman's advice (I think it was him) and decided to shield drop going straight downwards and it's actually really easy after 40 minutes lol.

Recently I saw a vid of vectorman vs. Jace and the commentator said it's easier to shield drop with yoshi. My question is how? A friend about 2 months ago said this was true but didn't say how and this commentator didn't say anything either. Is it easier in the sense to retaliate after the drop? I could imagine that being easier but not the actual drop.

 

[Sashimi]

The input for shield drop is the same with Yoshi as with any other character, but Yoshi has no shieldstun, so it is easier to time his shield drop after an attack.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

isn't it also about how you don't have to worry about tilting your shield and being vulnerable somewhere that you didn't want to be?

 

[Noyu]

Well that's just a perk of yoshi's shield in general. It in a way makes the drop easier, but I just wanted to know if in general without enemy pressure if the inputs or framing of the drop is easier.

 

[Noyu]

No character has to tilt their shield to shield drop but you have a point that someone like falcon may have to tilt their shield up to shield on an enemy and then cannot shield drop. But they can just jump out of shield i think.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

How do you guys deal with passive players? I realized that I am terrible at dealing with someone that straight up doesn't approach until I do... am I supposed to wait them out longer or still try to bait something out?

 

[Noyu]

Wavedash bait, egg stall (depending on the course), waveland bait, or just wait. As stupid as this sounds I like jumping over people sometimes because when people have to turn around they aren't usually comfortable. People waiting is very bad for yoshi but it's possible to manage. I personally like to run up to someone and d-tilt or d-smash at a good distance away because they always spot dodge thinking it's going to be a grab. I wouldn't try this on marth or sheik.

 

[Icyo]

I've noticed that whenever aMSa nairs someone holding their shield, he always hits them on the upper half of their shield. Does he do this to stay in double jump longer just in case they try to attack him before he nairs? Or does he do it to cross them up and land farther behind them?

 

[Sashimi]

Cross ups are easier with high DJCs but otherwise low DJCs are better on shield. High ones don't give you a frame advantage.

 

[PsyRex]

What is a cross-up and when is it useful? Also, what exactly does "frame advantage" mean?

EDIT: Also, do you still have to l-cancel if you DJC? Sorry if these are dumb questions.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

a cross-up is basically attacking in a way that ends up with you behind your opponent

a frame advantage is basically the difference of how much time you are able to act vs. your opponent (doing an aerial right before you land will leave your opponent in shieldstun for a different frame of time, and you won't be as vulnerable because this frame of time is closer to when you have landed)

you still have to l-cancel after a double jump cancel, yes. the aerial itself is not actually being affected by the double jump cancel, your movement is what changes from the double jump

 

[Noyu]

How do you guys set up grabs? Does any yoshi here actually grab cold turkey or do most here grab from a setup?

 

[Icyo]

How do you guys set up grabs? Does any yoshi here actually grab cold turkey or do most here grab from a setup?

You can do it to tech chase people. Leffen manages it here against Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOzrppvbvHk
Although, I am curious how practical this is because it seems fox is standing right before he does it once or twice.

 

[Sashimi]

I find some characters easier to grab than others, mostly based on the range of their attacks.

- Any time you know they are going to hold shield, you have a free grab. If they're the kind of player who spotdodges, jumps or otherwise does something out of shield when you move towards them, they're afraid of your grab and you can get something else by threatening grab.
- Any time your opponent does a techroll, you have a free grab on reaction as long as you position yourself properly. Characters with very good techrolls will be harder to cover but the techroll behind you should be universally easy to cover.
- Any time your opponent does something laggy on shield, you have a free grab. Shield DI will help for anything that has really long range. This is not reliable vs good opponents but you might as well take the free grab against players who have this habit.
- Any time you land a Fair on a grounded opponent, and it doesn't knock them over, you have a free grab. Against floaties you'll probably prefer some other follow-up. Standing grab won't be fast enough vs crouching opponents but Fair > Dashgrab can be done.
- If your opponent whiffs an aerial, their landing lag will usually be less than the startup time of dashgrab, so to get a grab you either need to be punishing a very laggy aerial or be spaced so far away that you can start the grab before your opponent lands (in which case they're not likely to throw out an aerial). There's a lot that can go on in this situation so I won't go into detail but I'll just say that dashdance > grab is not easy/simple with Yoshi.

 

[Noyu]

thanks guys

 

[Kimimaru]

I forgot to mention this before, but at the tournament I was at a couple weeks ago I was playing friendlies against a Falcon and threw an egg at his shield from close range when he was at around 100%. The egg bounced off his shield twice then shield stabbed him, which knocked him up enough to combo into D-smash. @ Sashimi do you think you can look into how Yoshi's eggs bounce on hit? I have yet to figure out whether an egg will bounce off a shield or not when it's thrown.

 

[Sashimi]

@ Kimimaru Yeah, I have been wondering what causes the egg to bounce off shields, since it tends to be pretty rewarding when it happens. My initial guess is it either has to do with the angle at which the egg hits the shield (I'm hoping it's this) or the speed at which the egg is moving when it hits, or something along those lines. I will figure it out and let you know!

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Yo I think I actually just figured it out! At the very least, I figured out one of the guaranteed ways to make the egg bounce (not sure if there's multiple scenarios)

http://puu.sh/gAHlO/678143cc00.png here is a terrible drawing, I'll explain it though

Imagine splitting a shield in half vertically. If an egg hits the half of the shield that is farther away from Yoshi (facing away from him), then it will bounce. Yoshi with the weird orange thing on his head in the picture is shown to throw an egg over the half of the shield closer to him, onto the side that is facing away from him. It would bounce off from this.

Gfycat example: http://gfycat.com/LegalWelltodoFlycatcher

 

[PsyRex]

Hm, however this egg does not bounce off of the shield multiple times. Maybe if the egg were closer to the top of the shield, but still on the opposite side?

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

While testing, I had a single egg bounce multiple times when it had a higher angle and wasn't as fast (if a bounce makes the egg fall back onto the correct half of the shield then itll bounce again)

I'm eating dinner now, I'll show that in a gfycat afterwards ^^

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Egg breaks on 2nd bounce: http://gfycat.com/BeautifulUnacceptableArrowworm#

Egg keeps going after 2nd bounce: http://gfycat.com/AnyUniformBlesbok

I kept doing a few tests and found out a few other things:

1. sometimes the egg will bounce even on the side of a shield that faces yoshi (seems to have to do with the area of the shield hit and the speed/angle of the egg? it will sometimes happen with slower eggs that hit the bottom half of a shield, but I can't get it to be consistent)
2. the whole "half of the shield facing away" thing works on Yoshi's shield
3. sometimes the "line" that splits the shield into a side that does make the egg bounce and doesn't make the egg bounce becomes enlarged on the side that doesn't let the egg bounce, seems to happen when yoshi is very close to it

I'm gonna try to do some more testing over this week, might use some frame by frame/TAS stuff to try to get more precise info on this (was a lot more complicated than I thought it was at first)

 

[Kimimaru]

Wow, interesting! I look forward to more of your testing; excellent work so far!

 

[Purpletuce]

I think the bounce is only really good if it is on the side closest to yoshi, as it will tend to bounce in a way that protects you. I feel like I've had the most success with this when I'm doing ECEs, and it hits while on the way up, and clips their shield.

I'd assume it is impact based, and a certain angle of impact will cause the egg to break.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

I managed to get it to bounce towards me a couple of times but didn't figure out a completely repeatable setup yet, gonna do the more serious testing tomorrow and probably a couple of days after as well

 

[PsyRex]

Angle of impact seems really likely. It would also explain why it happens more easily when hitting the side opposite Yoshi.

 

[Icyo]

I'm pretty sure it's a combination of the arc and place you hit on the shield. I've attached a picture that shows where I've found you can bounce the egg. If you hit the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock part of the shield, it bounces off regardless of velocity. Same thing goes for the 1 o'clock and 11 o'clock position of the shield. You can get it to bounce off the top if you have a very small angle like the arrows demonstrate at the very top.

I'd like to apologize for my terrible Microsoft Paint diagram.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Simply because of how shields/hitboxes/hurtboxes work in Melee, I really don't think that the area of the shield hit directly affects if an egg bounces or not. I could be wrong, but it just seems likely that there's something else going on with shield mechanics or something.

 

[Icyo]

It worked for me. Try it out.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

I'll try it out in a bit, but I meant that there is probably something else going on that makes certain areas a lot easier to bounce.

 

[Purpletuce]

I still recommend trying it from the ledge, because that is the only time where it really helps

 

[Icyo]

Why does aMSa throw out a lot of full hop nairs in this set against SFAT? Is it for countering Fox's SH/FJ nair?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds0_wKt7qjE

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

on a related note (since seeing that set reminded me), how does aMSa do the thing when he shield drops and then uairs without falling through?

 

[Sashimi]

You Uair on the first actionable frame, and if you hit someone, the hitlag allows your ECB to change shape with the Uair which puts you above the platform again.

 

[kofinater]

at some point i rember reading that yoshi could vudu dash? Could someone make a gif or provide more info? Or maybe i completely made this up

 

[Sashimi]

You read correctly, though it's not as noticeable as Luigi's. I'll post a GIF here in a second.

Edit: After looking at the frame data I am not 100% sure that it is actually a Vududash, but it at least functions the same way.

Regular Perfect Waveland:

Perfect Waveland > Egg Lay:

It might actually be that Yoshi's ECB shape changes during Egg Lay in a way that allows him to slide off like that, but I am not sure yet.

Edit 2: After more testing I am pretty sure that it is a combination of both. The actual vududash itself makes only a tiny difference in how far Yoshi goes after leaving the platform, and the ECB change during Egg Lay does most of the work. Unfortunately Egg Toss does not work on Battlefield platforms like Egg Lay does in the above GIF but it may be possible on other stages (most likely Yoshi's Story or Fountain of Dreams).