Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[hamyojo]

@ Purpletuce Standing regrab only works with certain DI. If you DI 135-180°, you can Nair them before standing regrab.

And wow, here I was trying out all kinds of things and it was the port number that mattered. Confirming what aMSa said:
At 0%, Port 2 Sheik is +10 after Dthrow against port 1 Yoshi, but +9 after Dthrow against Port 4 Yoshi.

Notice DamageFlyTop is on frame 23 vs frame 24. Each picture shows Sheik's first actionable frame.

I am not sure that this guarantees a way out yet, but it at least makes certain parts of the chaingrab very hard (ie. 1-frame window for regrab). I will keep looking unless aMSa comes back to blow my mind again.

Edit: I haven't heard of port priority affecting hitlag like this before, but I do know that Game & Watch has some weird port priority shenanigans involving knockback when he gets thrown by certain characters.

Wow. Time to add this to the list of things unique/odd about Yoshi... This character was definitely programmed by the better intern, where G&W was programmed by the even worse intern.

 

[Kimimaru]

So with this new info being discovered what is the best port to fight shiek on and can you switch ports mid tournament?

You can switch ports mid-tournament, but I'm not sure about mid-set. Port 4 would be the best port against Sheik.

 

[Purpletuce]

This game is actually the worst programmed game of all time. Seriously, port 4 actually matters? I can't even possibly guess a way that this would make sense. . . how did aMSa even figure this out?

aMSa probably is just santa and swapped everyone's discs overnight.

Also, does this happen in all the versions? I know some things that were glitchy like that were changed.

 

[kofinater]

Would this effect up throw upair from fox? Or any throw combo? And is it specifically port 4 or is it higher numbered port like the other port priority things?

 

[Sashimi]

@ K kofinater

Port 2 Sheik + Port 3 Yoshi produces the same effect so I'm guessing that you just have to be a higher port # than Sheik.

Also there is definitely more to this than just Sheik's Dthrow...

Edit: Works with two Foxes, confirmed that it's not just a weird Yoshi thing.

 

[tauKhan]

@ K kofinater

Port 2 Sheik + Port 3 Yoshi produces the same effect so I'm guessing that you just have to be a higher port # than Sheik.

Also there is definitely more to this than just Sheik's Dthrow...
Edit: Works with two Foxes, confirmed that it's not just a weird Yoshi thing.

The year is 20xx and the game is decided on rps on port priority...

Edit: Think I found the answer.

 

[Sashimi]

It probably won't be a very big deal in most cases, but for Yoshi it can lead to things like this:

 

[tauKhan]

Is it this thing actually:

Actually, to be more specific I think it starts at 4 or 5 when Sheik has port priority and begins at like 6 or 7 if Ganon has port priority. Some throws are weird and when the person being thrown has port priority it releases them at a lower height off the floor than when they don't.

 

[Sashimi]

Oh wow, you're right! Looking frame by frame, it's actually not a difference in hitlag at all. Yoshi (and I would assume other characters) is just starting his "DamageFlyTop" animation on the second frame instead of the first, and continuing normally from there. His starting position is slightly higher to match this change.

 

[Purpletuce]

Well... that makes more sense and seems less broken, but still seems like nonsense.

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

what up y'all. i'm not a yoshi player, but i'm on a conquest to do all the break the targets. i'm trying to learn yoshi's right now, but there is a part where i need to short hop and throw an egg a long distance, all while jumping backward. whenever i try to throw the egg though, i fastfall(?) back into the ground. here's a video of a guy doing what i'm talking about. the part i'm talking about is around 1:55. the yoshi run starts at 1:49. any advice on this part would be greatly appreciated. i mainly don't understand how to not fastfall (i assume that means i'm double jumping?) after throwing an egg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwQ94WeXm6g

 

[Sashimi]

It sounds like you're accidentally double jumping before the egg toss. Yoshi's double jump sends him downwards a little bit before sending him upwards, and if you do an attack before the upward part, it prevents that.

Since it has to be a short hop, I'd suggest the following:
Hit X or Y to jump
During your jumpsquat, move the stick up and backwards, and hold it there until you hit B.
During the startup of Egg Toss, move the stick foward to aim the egg.

Hope this helps!

Edit: After seeing the video, you can move the stick up even earlier during the wavedash. This is probably easier.

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

i forgot to post the video Lolz.

 

[Klaww]

If anyone else was upset about not having Lucky vs aMSa streamed at Apex, it still got recorded at least:

I haven't watched it yet but I'm looking forward to it, especially considering how good Lucky's Fox is.

 

[Sashimi]

On another topic:

My region is planning a sort of "salty suite" at our next monthly, and I might be playing Vrud, a very good Ness main from Montreal. I've played him before but I don't feel that I really understand much about the matchup. Has anyone played a good Ness before, and if so, do you have any advice?

 

[Purpletuce]

If you get him above you, or offstage without a jump, egg covers all his options. Also, his fair and dash attack are way better than they look.

 

[MrHazuki]

Don't be afraid to edgeguard with dair from above. If you get past his rising dj fair/uair, it is very free... and very fun. :D

 

[Kimimaru]

On another topic:

My region is planning a sort of "salty suite" at our next monthly, and I might be playing Vrud, a very good Ness main from Montreal. I've played him before but I don't feel that I really understand much about the matchup. Has anyone played a good Ness before, and if so, do you have any advice?

How did you do against him when you played?

Like Purpletuce said, his F-air and dash attack are better than they look. A well spaced F-air is hard to deal with because you can't armor through it and punish easily, and getting caught with the wrong DI on dash attack (inwards) often leads to a B-air. Aside from F-air, dash attack, and B-air, there isn't much to worry about. Ness has a lot of trouble getting down so juggle him with U-airs and get him offstage as soon as possible. Once he's offstage you pretty much took his stock.

 

[Sashimi]

How did you do against him when you played?

We played about an hour or two of friendlies in December and we went about even in games, but I was kind of just doing general Yoshi things. People are hyping up our potential set so I'd like to actually prepare for the matchup this time, haha.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[aMSa]

hey guys, Do you already know which % you can kill your opponents?
I recorded it on Excel I'll post it soon
but I don't know how to upload the image :/

 

[Purpletuce]

There are two easy ways I know how to do it:

1. Upload the excel to google docs and share a link.

or

2. Export the excel file to pdf, open pdf and save as an image( jpeg / png ). Copy then paste image to your post. ( I can't find out how to save the excel as an image directly. )

 

[aMSa]

Thanks Purpletuce!

 

[aMSa]

Here is!

You can KO any characters in this situation.
For Exmple: when Peach is 129%,Fair,U-smash and downB can KO her Even If she could correctly do DI.
I'm sorry it is not correctly except for Final Destination but it's really close.
and If you wanna check Yoshi's story's KOs %,
Final Destination -7% is really close.

 

[Sashimi]

@ aMSa That is really cool, thank you!

Do you mind if I add this to my frame data thread here? I would make sure to credit you with the information.

 

[aMSa]

@ aMSa That is really cool, thank you!

Do you mind if I add this to my frame data thread here? I would make sure to credit you with the information.

Sure!

 

[Purpletuce]

What is the order of characters on that spreadsheet? Is it just random?

 

[aMSa]

What is the order of characters on that spreadsheet? Is it just random?

I use tier list as a reference.

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Guys... help...
http://www.twitch.tv/eitherian/c/6066327?t=9h43m23s

I'm so sad about this defeat... I got chain grabbed by shiek and didn't know what to do exactly and then I've never fought a Ness in my life that was on the level of this guy. What do? (Also, help with parrying? Anyone got any practice tips?)

All feedback is welcome, if you see anything I can improve do not hesitate to point it out; my play needs so much help it isn't even funny. (Though, feel free to laugh)

 

[Purpletuce]

Your own tier list, or a japan tier list? Falcon over Marth? Very interesting

 

[Kimimaru]

Hey guys, I finally made it out to a Melee tournament yesterday (Saturday) for the first time in 7 months and had a couple of matches on stream, on of them being a Doubles match. I'd like some critique on this match, specifically Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3bpv3y74gE

I'm not a big fan of Stadium and Fox is clearly better on that stage, but I felt I wasn't adapting well enough on my last couple of stocks and kept being predictable by doing the same things. I also always kept getting hit by his getup attacks the entire set which shouldn't have happened. Thanks in advance!

 

[Purpletuce]

It sucks that you lost to Fox on PS. Pretty much the only reason that stage is legal is because every region has one or more high level fox mains, everyone always caters to them, and now it is appropriate for the best character in the game to be the only one that gets a counterpick.

I started watching your set, then I just got annoyed by watching generic fox for the 1000th time.

 

[Festive]

Here is!

You can KO any characters in this situation.
For Exmple: when Peach is 129%,Fair,U-smash and downB can KO her Even If she could correctly do DI.
I'm sorry it is not correctly except for Final Destination but it's really close.
and If you wanna check Yoshi's story's KOs %,
Final Destination -7% is really close.

Do you happen to have the percentages for forward smash and down smash?

 

[kofinater]

@ aMSa , or anyone else. When you say "landin- down b" Do you mean the knockback changes when you hit the ground? Or does a ground b starting from the ground have greater knockback then one starting in the air? If its the latter, I think grounded down-b is a better term.

 

[Sashimi]

@ aMSa , or anyone else. When you say "landin- down b" Do you mean the knockback changes when you hit the ground? Or does a ground b starting from the ground have greater knockback then one starting in the air? If its the latter, I think grounded down-b is a better term.

Starting from the ground, it has higher knockback and damage. The one starting in the air isn't great for KOing until very high %.

@ Festive It's much harder to list KO % for moves that KO horizontally because their KO % changes depending on where you are on the stage. A vertical KO move is easy to list because, from the ground, it will KO at the same % on any part of the stage, assuming that the stage is flat. The ones in aMSa's list all KO vertically

 

[kofinater]

Starting from the ground, it has higher knockback and damage. The one starting in the air isn't great for KOing until very high %.

@ Festive It's much harder to list KO % for moves that KO horizontally because their KO % changes depending on where you are on the stage. A vertical KO move is easy to list because, from the ground, it will KO at the same % on any part of the stage, assuming that the stage is flat. The ones in aMSa's list all KO vertically

cool, that's what i thought, but i didn't realize the kill % was that low. Have a few shield poke setups that i may want to try vs floaties.

 

[Berble]

shoutouts to all u yoshi mains that stick it out in that ****ing awful fox mu lol
sorry our char is so broken

 

[Kimimaru]

For how laggy Yoshi Bomb is, it should be stronger than Fox's U-smash.

 

[BigglesWorth]

So I've done something a bit on shield and got away with it but I am not sure if its because its safe or if its because I am surrounded by people that haven't learned to deal with it. But at certain distance and positions on stage, I have been able to poke shield with a rising bair (spacing it to retreat a slightly after advancing from the initial jump) so that it pokes with the 2nd hit and then once or twice more then reverse double jump nairing so the hard hit goes across the shield (moving Yoshi in a downward motion) across the opponent's shield to the other side then allowing a safe time to parry or roll away at a safe distance. This was inspired primarily by watching axe poke shield safely by nair with the reverse hard hit off platforms. Effectively safe poking with a bair to safely setup a falling nair to the other side. I've been calling it the "bair/nair crossup" not knowing who else does it or how good it is. But since bair is a fairly safe poke and both hits can link to smashes, it seemed useful to pressure oponnents who are center stage and you are mid distance from them (which is arguably one of Yoshi's weakest positions: on the ground facing someone on the ground). Dashdancing into a bair/nair cross roll or dash away takes a chunk of shield, threatens pokes, and makes the center stage position not a great one to be in against yoshi (so were my thoughts).

Is it as safe as I think it might be (though you are relying on position or a mixup after the roll, dash away, or parry) or is it people just don't know how to call it out? If so, then it might be a great midrange poke on shields other than just nair froming platforms.

Let me know. I am still new.

 

[Purpletuce]

That is definitely good and I stole that from Kimimaru at least a year ago.

 

[Peanutphobia]

Sup Yoshis,

It's really cool to see the new (at least for me) sheik port priority info being posted. Keep up the great work everyone!

How do you guys feel about the puff MU? I really struggle against characters I can't get big punishes on like Peach and Puff, but I feel like the general consensus is that puff isn't too bad for yoshi. Any tips for this MU? I don't play it very often, but when I do, I find it very difficult to get around her wall of bairs. Usually my only strategies in neutral are trying to hard read their movement and do something like run under her bair->upsmash, or go for risky fairs; or i'll just edge camp with eggs if i'm in a bad spot by the ledge. I feel pretty helpless in neutral against puff, so if anyone has any tips, please share!