Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[MrHazuki]

I really like to waveland into bairs (with or without DJ for movement/changing direction). Yoshi's bair is the key.
Kill with uair or sneaky nairs.

 

[Sashimi]

Bair is good in general but don't directly challenge Puff's Bair with it
Crouch cancel at low %
Usmash or Uair if she is above you
Egg Toss if she is far away or above you but avoiding your Usmash
Egg Lay or Dtilt if she is grounded a lot
Reverse DJC Nair can mess up Puff's spacing
Running parry is very good if Puff is trying to wall you out

Uthrow Rest doesn't work
Uair Rest shouldn't work, but don't tech predictably on platforms or it will still get you
Utilt Rest works, avoid getting hit by Utilt at all costs

Without Rest, Puff has a hard time KOing Yoshi.

 

[Kimimaru]

I 2-0d a very good Puff last Saturday that I've never beaten before, and what I did was mix up my options a lot. I never went for desperate U-smashes and generally didn't do much in the neutral. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing anything; it puts pressure on your opponent because they'll be thinking of how to approach you. The good part about this MU is you can force Puff to approach by tossing eggs. That said, here are some general pointers:

-Make an effort to rack up as much percent as safely as possible. Eggs are ideal
-If she's above you, well spaced U-airs and U-smashes are essentially unpunishable. Try to make it hard for her to get back to the ground and refresh her jumps
-Be careful about when you use your double jump. If you get knocked offstage without your jump there's a high probability Puff will Wall-of-Pain-you and take a stock at a low percent

 

[kofinater]

@Peanutphobia Do your homework hahha http://youtu.be/9zYTM2zRm90

 

[kofinater]

How do you guys work on tightening your range of play? I feel like when i'm on my game i can take on players that would be considered levels above me but occasionally can lose to players i would consider significantly worse. For example in the past 2 months I've gone to game 3 against StriCNYN3, 4%(#1 in North East Ohio), and Wenbo. But have loses to a bad IC and some pretty bad Peaches and foxes. I feel like Peach and fox are particularly prone for loses when not playing well, but i feel pretty good vs fox when i'm in tune especially after watching some of the stuff aMSa was doing at Apex, but when you mess up an edgegaurd and get killed for it because of sakurai combo it feels so dumb. Peach especially ****s me up, I actually feel like i have some things in the MU that i'm getting better at but whenever i see my opponent hover over that character i get instantly upset and start sets off in a bad mood especially when i know the person i'm playing doesn't main peach.

 

[Sashimi]

I've been dealing with this as well over the past few months. I think the biggest thing that has been helping me is remembering to play seriously against every opponent. Often I'd be very focused against players that I knew were better than me, but I'd zone out/play auotpilot/do "generic Yoshi things" against players that I thought would be easy to beat. A few times this led me to lose to players that I felt I should have beaten. I have beaten all of those players since, some in multiple sets, and I think it was mostly because I went into our sets very focused and treating them like I would any other opponent. Sometimes it also helps to start a bit slower or simpler than usual. Worse players are usually worse because of their habits or their willingness to make large commitments, so if you let them do their thing at the beginning of the game (while keeping yourself safe), you can find holes in their gameplan pretty quickly.

Peach can be rough for obvious reasons, but I find most counterpick Peaches don't actually prepare well for the matchup and fail as a result. I've had a few people try to counterpick Peach against me and then spend most of their time doing FC Fairs or other simple Peach things that are easy for Yoshi to counter. Counterpick Peaches also often have no idea what to do against Egg Lay.

 

[kofinater]

ya, I just have a really silly mental block vs Peach. Need to work on it

 

[Dinowulf]

two questions guys. 1. What are the inputs you do for a Parry > Wavedash > Fsmash? (L > R + D > fmash)
2. Is it easier to parry on the L or R buttons?

 

[Sashimi]

1. I can't think of a good situation for Parry > Wavedash > Fsmash, but the inputs would be L or R > X or Y > Move stick to the wavedash angle > L or R (preferably the one you didn't use for the parry) > C-stick forward.

2. There isn't much of a difference, but I find Parry > Double Jump Land much easier if I do the parry with L, and everything else is about the same so I use L.

 

[booskaboom]

What should I do against Pikachu?

 

[Icyo]

Can someone explain the weird movement aMSa is doing here:
http://youtu.be/UufV85QoCVE?t=2m16s

It looks like he's moonwalking out of a dash.

 

[Sashimi]

He's doing the "Charlie" which is to start a moonwalk by dashing (we'll call this frame 1), transition into your run by holding forward as late as frame 20 and then hit backwards as soon as possible to initiate "TurnRun," but with the backwards momentum of the moonwalk. After a certain point aMSa lets go of the stick so that he can dash out of TurnRun when it ends and he can start the whole thing again with another moonwalk.

 

[kofinater]

How do you guys feel about timing people out? I havn't done it yet but there are a few laser/DD camp foxes in my region that don't challenge me when i'm on the ledge i've always had the thought to just stay there but have never fully committed. Last weekly one of my games went for 6 minutes vs a fox and i kind of want to try it but i never fully have the heart.

 

[Noyu]

1. You're not timing out a fox as yoshi. They will eventually come unless they aren't good enough for you to beat, in which case you should just beat them.
2. Laser camping is so prominent in this new metagame it sickens me. Try picking a small course so they won't camp you.
3. If you seriously are going to attempt the ledge stall, which is ridiculous imo, make sure you're a clean stock ahead as he might try to cheese you when he realizes you will time him out.

4. Can someone tell me if they consistently shield drop just by holding down on the control stick alone and don't use the 45 degree angle trick to shield drop? I want to shield drop consistently and more importantly FAST. I watched hamyojo play and shield drop fast at some times but at other times it took him a while and at one point he seemingly was trying to go for a drop because he wasn't moving at got grabbed.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Noyu There's nothing wrong with the diagonal method with yoshi, since shield angling doesn't even matter, you can just always hold, or quickly move stick to side when shielding.

 

[Icyo]

I shield drop consistently without angling. While practicing, I can do it while moving the control stick at an amazing speed. It just takes muscle memory. Doing the 45-degree angle trick makes me feel like I have to anticipate shield dropping and prepare the stick in advance.

 

[kofinater]

1. You're not timing out a fox as yoshi. They will eventually come unless they aren't good enough for you to beat, in which case you should just beat them.
2. Laser camping is so prominent in this new metagame it sickens me. Try picking a small course so they won't camp you.
3. If you seriously are going to attempt the ledge stall, which is ridiculous imo, make sure you're a clean stock ahead as he might try to cheese you when he realizes you will time him out.

4. Can someone tell me if they consistently shield drop just by holding down on the control stick alone and don't use the 45 degree angle trick to shield drop? I want to shield drop consistently and more importantly FAST. I watched hamyojo play and shield drop fast at some times but at other times it took him a while and at one point he seemingly was trying to go for a drop because he wasn't moving at got grabbed.

Ya, I figured. But there are some seriously non committal foxes , that even when i have a lead i could very realistically stay on the ledge for like a minute. Like i said the game i won did go for 6 minutes+ and i did end up just beating him on stage but the ledge was a much safer place then it usually is against him so i retreated there a bunch. As far as quick shield drops without the 45 degree method. KJH from Michigan plays claw and puts his thumb right under the control stick in a position that if he pressed down as fast as possible it consistently shield drops.

 

[kofinater]

@ Noyu There's nothing wrong with the diagonal method with yoshi, since shield angling doesn't even matter, you can just always hold, or quickly move stick to side when shielding.

There is one problem with the diagonal method. And thats shield DI. For me shield dropping left is easier but if you are on the left side of the platform and fox up airs you, you'll slide off and get hit by the strong hit. If i hold right that won't happen.

 

[Sashimi]

@ Noyu I use the straight down method of shield dropping and it works fine for me, but the angled method is really good. I guess it doesn't hurt to be able to do both.

@ K kofinater There is a local Fox main who insists every time we play that Yoshi players should just time everyone out with eggs, haha. I say if you're consistent enough at it, then go for it. Especially when your opponent is waiting across the stage, you don't have to worry about doing fast ECEs because there's no immediate threat, so you can slow down to ensure you won't SD. Or you can just sit on the ledge whenever your opponent is out of range (ex. other side of FD).

One thing I don't see often is the combination of ECEs + other ledge options, surprisingly. Even aMSa just throws eggs until he feels like coming off of the ledge or his opponent hits him. Sometimes he does the Yoshi Bomb ledge stall, but there are a lot of cool things you can do to prevent your opponent from hitting you during ECEs if they do manage to get close. Fast (<100%) getup attack, aerial interrupt into some intangible attack, ledgehop Nair, Fair or Uair, Waveland behind (esp if they shield) can all be done while an egg is still out.

But yeah, no one is going to let you time them you. At the very least, you'd convince the Fox to stop camping.

 

[Noyu]

Thanks, @ Sashimi

The 270 degree method sounds like the best imo.

Also I COMPLETELY agree with @ Sashimi . I never see enough ECEs from other yoshis and admittedly I don't do it enough myself. On top of this, tactical light-shielding is another tech I don't see enough.

 

[tauKhan]

When I played yoshi, I tried some pretty extensive camping against my training partner who plays fox. He quickly started just turning and bairing all the eggs, and simultaneously moved towards the ledge. Bairing the eggs is also extremely easy, he basically never got accidentally hit while doing it. Often he would just stand under the other side of platform and wait me to get on stage and punish me for that, or corner me at least. On the other hand he could easily get within shine range and punish me for slow execution.

What can you do against that strategy? I felt like yoshi's slow dj made it impossible for me to punish him getting close to the edge.

 

[Purpletuce]

Having to rely on being able to hold all the way to the side is terrible. It is far too slow, and you can definitely be consistent with the moving it down method.

 

[Noyu]

Ok, and the speed at which you get to the shield drop orientation of the control stick does not matter right? It just matters that you get there and don't go past? I shield drop a lot in practice but again my shield drops are not ready for actual fights yet. Also do you just immediately flick up-air after visually seeing that you dropped or do you just KNOW you're going to get the drop and then up-air automatically to be quicker. Also, do you just shield drop with the control stick and fling the C-stick up or fling the control stick up to jump and press A or Z to up-air?

Thanks :D

 

[Sashimi]

@ Noyu I just assume that I'll get the shield drop and C-stick up with that assumption. There's no penalty for moving the C-stick too early either since Yoshi can't buffer jump OoS like other characters. Imo it's better to be too early rather than too late, since being early results in an empty shield drop while being late ends with your Uair potentially missing or being blocked. Either way it isn't too hard to time the Uair right anyway.

@ T tauKhan Yoshi's <100% ledge attack covers a pretty good range and can be done with intangibility. If Fox is approaching by hitting your eggs with Bairs, you can throw out an Egg to bait the Bair, then punish his landing with the ledge attack or aerial interrupt > whatever you want. He can shield those attacks of course, but that gives you the mixup of wavelanding past him while intangible. I don't think anything is guaranteed, but the options I listed are a lot better than just repeatedly throwing eggs at close opponents.

 

[Purpletuce]

I definitely know when I'm going to shield drop, and the Uair timing is pretty reflexive.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Alright so I'm 100% back to being Yoshi... I can't handle 20XX, it's just not my thing haha

What are your guys's "tech skill practice" routines?

 

[Pάρί]

So I was watching Amsa play against someone and to ledge hog them instead of wavedashing onto the ledge he dash towards it and it looked like he slid onto the ledge without wavedash onto it. Can someone please explain what this is?

Also how do I put shield pressure on someone as yoshi? Do I just DJC aerial?

Sorry if this questions are confusing

 

[Icyo]

So I was watching Amsa play against someone and to ledge hog them instead of wavedashing onto the ledge he dash towards it and it looked like he slid onto the ledge without wavedash onto it. Can someone please explain what this is?

Since Yoshi's double jump turns him around, you can simply run/walk off the edge then use your double jump to turn around and grab the ledge.

 

[Noyu]

there are many ways to shield pressure, amsa DJC nairs a lot but something like dair can destroy one's shield.

 

[Purpletuce]

Except Dair is terrible and you shouldn't go for it unless you can hit with the whole thing and hope for a shield poke, or if you think you can ledge cancel (and you give up everything)

 

[Festive]

Having to rely on being able to hold all the way to the side is terrible. It is far too slow, and you can definitely be consistent with the moving it down method.

Could you explain the down method? I tried doing it fast but just end up doing a spot dodge.

 

[Icyo]

Can you do it slowly? You might be moving the control stick to far down. Practice doing it slow then fast. This graphic might help you understand where the sweet spot is:

 

[Festive]

Can you do it slowly? You might be moving the control stick to far down. Practice doing it slow then fast. This graphic might help you understand where the sweet spot is:

Omg this helps so much! Thank you! :D

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Yo I'm having some trouble with parrying

It takes me a long time against an opponent to start to read their movement well enough to be able to parry some of their moves. How can I practice being able to parry against opponents I haven't played before faster?

 

[Sashimi]

Try to play more against opponents who purposefully mix up their aerial timings against you. You'll know the "default" timings that they like to do since you probably play with them often, but anyone who tries to mess with your parrying should still give you good practice. I can't think of any other good ways to practise learning to parry against a new opponent other than (obviously) playing new opponents often. Of course it's hard to play with new people all the time. You'll probably also get better at it if you develop the rest of your skills, since learning to parry against a new opponent requires you to be aware of your opponent and to recognize their habits, and you can work on those things without specifically focusing on parrying.

 

[Cervidae]

I went all Yoshi at my local weekly last night and it went a little better than expected! I've just recently switched mains off of Ice Climbers and have only been practicing Yoshi since Monday so I didn't have too high of expectations (if any at all), but I managed to win a few games in tournament and in friendlies. In pools I only managed to win one set and my opponent was new to the game, but I still feel that I solidly. Other than that I took a game off another opponent but lost everything else. A lot of people were asking if my games were tournament matches which got a few good laughs out of me. Unfortunately, the TOs messed up when they were setting up the bracket and left me out, but I got refunded so it wasn't all bad. I'd say the highlight of the night was managing to accidentally parry a grab.

One thing I did notice was that I struggled to get back onto the stage from the ledge. A lot of times I would DJC into a fair from the ledge only to be met with a aerial and sent back offstage without a jump. Eventually I stopped going for the fair or nair and would just let the super-armor protect my approach, but I was wondering if there was a better option to get back on stage. I know I could have used more ECE's, but when the character is already close enough to punish you when your head pulls slightly above the ledge or against a Sheik who can throw needles to challenge your ECE's I couldn't think of much else considering Yoshi's waveland doesn't make him invincible long enough to directly challenge someone on stage (at least I think it isn't; I could be wrong though!).

 

[Sashimi]

If you want to challenge someone from the ledge with intangibility, you'll have to do an aerial interrupt. Otherwise, waveland won't get you an intangible attack but will get you onstage and a fair distance without getting hit.

At most you get 2 frames of actionable intangibility from a waveland and 8 from an aerial interrupt. Ledgehop aerials are as risky with Yoshi as with any other character, so only do them if your opponent is doing something directly punishable while you're on the ledge. You can also go to the platforms if you feel like that's safer.

 

[PsyRex]

How do you guys practice movement? I feel like I do ok with wavelanding, but I have a lot of trouble with movement that isn't across platforms. I also have a hard time "hugging" the platforms/stage the way someone like aMSa does. Are there specific things that you guys practice when you're practicing movement or do you just kind of freestyle it?

 

[Kimimaru]

I've got some good Vs. Peach play for you guys. Start at 4:41:37 here:

http://www.twitch.tv/spartansmashleague/b/631451550

EDIT: Since the link above may not persist, here's the uploaded video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmSzC3xPmnI

 

[YOSHIDO]

Cervidae- I'm glad you're coming to the yoshi side. I honestly say the best way to improve your recovery is by mixing it up. Air dodge, double jump height, get up attack, down b stall to mix up timing, roll are some starts that have worked ore me.