Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Mind Trick]

It's kinda hard to implement if I don't know what you're talking about lol...
Instant djl to stop dash, djl on platforms, djc to reach the ground faster, djc to change direction instantly, djc platform cancels, dj wavelands, which one do you mean?

 

[MrHazuki]

I imagine one of the most useful parts is getting to the platform to continue combos, and be able to shield -> shielddrop counter more easily.

 

[Sashimi]

It's kinda hard to implement if I don't know what you're talking about lol...
Instant djl to stop dash, djl on platforms, djc to reach the ground faster, djc to change direction instantly, djc platform cancels, dj wavelands, what are you talking about?

He means DJC to reach the ground faster. aMSa posted a video on youtube recently showing how DJC can be a useful movement tool for fast-falling. I think he was mostly using Dair to do it.

I have a question, though. Why is specfically Dair good for this movement? My gut says Nair would be a better choice since there's at least a hitbox out, but I'm sure aMSa has some reason for using Dair.

 

[Mind Trick]

Ah, thanks, missed that one.
I think he uses dair because there's less delay between the attack and the fall due to changing direction on the controlstick. This is pretty good for tomahawk stuff.

 

[V3ctorMan]

^OMG sorry yeah, I forgot to link the post.. >< thanks guys sorry,.. and yeah basically that video that perhaps man linked.. .. Sorry it was late last night, and.. gah ><: idk... but yeah it's sooo useful you guys... for real.. Please use, you'll LOVE it's potential..! <3

EDIT: it's not meant for a hitbox... it's meant for a movement type of maneuver... pay close attention, and just use your imagination, for the kind of mndgames you can do with this. <3

 

[Purpletuce]

I've never used DJC exclusively for movement, but I have used DJC FF Nair quite a bit to both move and to cover my landing. I only really used it to get from top platform to the ground against characters I want above me (Shiek Marth Luigi). I think one big utility of using Dair is that it doesn't have a hitbox out. Since the move doesn't start up for so long, it has the first 15 frames autocancel, making it the move that is fastest after landing. I might mess around with this later, although I think it might be easier to keep doing Nair because also having the hitbox to disrupt opponents is nice.

So, lately I've noticed I've had some change in heart on what MUs I like. My current thoughts(amount of trouble Yoshi has):

Falco=Shiek>Fox=Falcon=Peach=IC>Puff=Samus=Doc>Marth=Ganon
Really Hard: Falco, Shiek
Hard: Falcon, Fox, IC, Peach
Not That Hard: Doc, Puff, Samus
Evenish: Ganon Marth

Not too sure about Samus or Peach, I have limited experience vs. them

 

[MrHazuki]

If I were to play NTSC I would probably agree about everything except Peach. She is on a tier of her own.

 

[Purpletuce]

As in you think she is harder than everyone else? Like I said I don't have much practice against her. Except for a few games(less than 10), I've only ever played bad peaches or Bladewise.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

wanted to give my full shoutout to aMSa... thanks for the idea.. on that DJC for "movement purposes" I think that's a new idea, that will help push Yoshi's metagame even further.. Thanks to you, i've completely added it to my game... and man is it useful.. I admit, I was unsure if it's usage at first, and had tried some time ago to implement it, but I've come to grow and appreciate i..tCan't wait to team with you at apex good sir... Yoshi evolution, one step at a time..

I hope to see other Yoshi's implement this into their game... It maybe ackward to get used to at first, but I believe it is very viable, kind of like parrying... maybe not to the same extent, but I COMPLETELY see it's potential.. thanks again aMSa.. <3 you man

So, I tried this today... And a reverse DJC waveland towards your opponent seems to be one of the most useful things I've learned so far. It's so easy to follow up with anything after it as well. Do you have any examples of any yoshi's using DJC for movement?

 

[Purpletuce]

I think he is talking about to quickly shift momentum from rising to fast-falling, then AC landing. What you're talking about is interesting, but totally different.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

I see what he means now. Really tricky to get used to, but i think this will be very useful.

 

[Kimimaru]

I've started incorporating DJLs, using them to drop through platforms very quickly. I feel this will really give me more movement options and allow me to use more mixups in my play. It's incredible how many awesome tools Yoshi has at his disposal, especially that Fox shine -> follow-up counter using Yoshi Bomb!

Speaking of that, was aMSa even in the air when he got hit by that shine? I assume so, but I wouldn't be surprised if something strange about Yoshi Bomb allowed him to CC the knockback or something. This is the video I'm referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxvB861j0Lw

 

[Hawt Salsa]

especially that Fox shine -> follow-up counter using Yoshi Bomb!

Did anyone ever give an explanation about how this was pulled off?

 

[Sashimi]

I would also like to know what was going on in that Yoshi Bomb video.

 

[MrHazuki]

I guess jumping using down-B lets you become airborne earlier than jumping (or just as fast). If you switch phase (meaning landing or gliding off edge/ground disappears) while in non-tumbling stun (e.g. shine) you lose all stun, which means you can dsmash as soon as you land.

Very situational, eh.

 

[Sashimi]

Thanks! I guess that's useful against Fox players who like to shine too much.

 

[Mind Trick]

Wow, I never even noticed dair has an autocancel when its just starting up, definitely using this now. This ****ing game, never stop learning.

 

[Purpletuce]

Almost all moves have autocancel frames when they're starting up. All of Yoshi's moves have AC frames, although the Dair is the only really pronounced one.

 

[Sashimi]

What can Yoshi do to fastfallers with a grab?

 

[Kimimaru]

D-throw can lead into stuff if they don't DI away and a tech chase if they do. Some things you can do at lower percents are D-throw -> N-air -> Running Grab -> U-air chains. At higher percents on Fox/Falco, U-throw leads into D-smash and several other things. In my experience, F-throw and B-throw are generally pretty useless, but they may have some uses as mixups.

 

[YOSHIDO]

What do you mean with retreating, like djcing and instead of turning around just drifting back? If so, fair is pretty good with this.



Some thoughts:
- Work on your movement, you're stationary too much, making you much easier to hit. I see you moving fluidly between stocks but it seems to disappear when the opponent is back.
- Work on your punish game, way too much dsmash and ending combo's early.
- Good job mixing up recovery.
- Grab more and stay grounded more (especially against marth this is really important), don't just throw out moves. Better opponents will punish that floating nair stuff and unspaced aerials on shield mercilessly.
- Don't hit CF and sheik back on stage! If you work on a speedy waveland on the stage (and timing invincibility against sheik poof) its easy to dsmash them back off.
- Look out for doing the obvious roll in when under pressure.

Thanks man I've been trying to figure out where I'm being to logical. I will push to try and keep moving then punish with what i want to hit with instead of waiting for it to happen.

I'll incorporate dash canceled grabs more. I will try and mix up floaty airs with djc airs more. I like a floaty nair to keep them ground so i can gain a better position. An thanks about the waveland to edge guard. I didn't know it was fast enough. An I completely agree. I'll finally break the fear and roll habit before apex!. But yeah man thanks again.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Are you Yoshi mains going to try out Yoshi in P:M? I'm interested to know what you all will think of him.

Sorry if this thread isn't the place to post this.

 

[Sashimi]

Are you Yoshi mains going to try out Yoshi in P:M? I'm interested to know what you all will think of him.

Sorry if this thread isn't the place to post this.

He looks like Melee Yoshi with the ability to jump out of shield, a useful Side B and 64 Nair, so I'm pretty excited. It seems like parrying is gone, which is unfortunate, but overall, I can't complain. I'll definitely be maining Yoshi in P:M.

Edit: I've been told that parrying is NOT gone, though it will be less important now that Yoshi can jump OoS.

 

[Purpletuce]

I doubt I'll main him in PM. I have a hunch they'll make him more like a normal character. I'll check it out though.

 

[MrHazuki]

He seems really boring.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

Jumping out of shield would screw up my play style almost instantly.

 

[Kimimaru]

He looks pretty good; I like that they gave him his 64 U-tilt. However, I have a feeling they completely changed his playstyle and the unique feel of the character that we all know and love. I have friends with Project M, so once 3.0 comes out I'll give him a try and give my thoughts.

 

[yoshiiscool]

Hey guys, I've kinda started playing melee again recently, since this new guy wanted to start learning in my area. We just recorded some ****, and I'm pretty rusty, but I think the game's pretty fun again. What kinda stuff do I have to learn after not playing much for 2-3 years?

(vids for those interested:
vs fox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XShLIQwr5iA
vs falco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIKA4OVqOiU )
Sorry for the lack of sound, we initially were just going to use them to critique ourselves, but I figured I'd put up the yoshi ones at least for the hell of it. If there's enough interest I'll rig up sound next time.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

If I can say something (I've been playing for a while but only a yoshi main for a month now) You were full hopping alot, which will leave you open for some hits.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

(yoshiiscool)

welcome back good sir! =D

Glad to see you've found your mojo for playing again... I actually just watched both of your matches vs the fox and vs the falco... and you're still very solid.. I'm happy to see that.. Your execution on a few things is still missing in a few areas, but it's something that comes back with playing more, so I'm sure you'll be fine in that department... in due time.

Also glad to see you've got someone to play now, and it seems you're doing well in training him too, so hopefully he progresses too

You've even implemented shielddrops in your game which is a MUST for yoshi's, and I also notice that you, implement parry's before (at least you try to) before every single jump, and that's a wonderful mindset to have.. another thing, I believe everyone should do also.. Keep improving on these areas, and you'll be golden..

I honestly don't know what to REALLY say besides, just keep practicing, and experiment, in a few areas... I noticed a combo you had used, that I recently just starting liking actually also.. but have kind of went away from it a lil bit... At lower %, if you're able to pull a jab reset, on spacies... DJCuair>Ftilt/Utilt, has amazing options also rather than just the uair chains... with that you can also build the % to make the uair chains easier to connect... ^^

I LOVE the use of Ftilt... it seems you've noticed that Ftilt, is an amazing option, on sh approach from spacies.. Again, this is something everyone should use in this MU, (of course not to a spamming point) but if you know the spacing(s) of that Ftilt, and the sooner you understand it's priority, you'll only begin to love it even more..

Things I didn't like..hmmmmmmmm... you only used it twice.. but you were WAY up in the air, (without a jump) and just Down+B on stage, and you got punished both times.. xD Can't really blame you, cuz it sucks not having a jump, but yeah... lol

Regardless, glad to see you playing again, Hope to see more videos from you, and hope you get back into the scene, and play some tourney matches, so we can see what you can do... Im sure i'll be able to give a more, "in depth" idea of where you're at, when you play someone in tourney or something..

@ Yoshido, - I'm watching yours too, I didn't forget, I'll comment yours soon too! n_n
@ Mind Trick - not sure if I said this yet, but i'm glad to see you back, posting too.. and that you've found the mojo, in wanting to play and learn also! woooot

@ Kimi - I critiqued a match of yours in the video thread I believe, (I might have done both I don't recall) ><; but again, I'm glad to see so much action going on with Yoshi, it's amazing! ^^

Purpletuce - how you been buddy, GG's on your recent tourney, hope vids do get up tho! ^^

Salsa, Perhaps man - Hiiiiiiiiiiiii! and welcome! Always a pleasure to see more players!!

Allrite, so keep it up Yoshis!!! <3

Lastly, Went to my 2nd AZ tourney this year, had a wonderful time... Tourney had about 40-50 entrants or so, so it was actually a decent tournout for us.... Forward even showed up! =D Sadly, because the tournament was running so late, (it was around 12am, and I had work in the morning, and had a 3.5 hour drive back home.. (Yep SV sucks) I had to actually forfeit my match, so I was rather dissapointed... I would've had to fight (Medz) he's an up and coming Fox player, (about even with TAI) in terms of MU) while Tai excels overall, but very solid Fox! and if I beat him, I would've played Tai for 2nd place... I've had much success vs Marth, and vs TAI also, so it was rather disappointing, knowing I'll never know now... ultimately, I LIKELY would've never beat Axe anyway, (he was waiting in GF's), so I sadly settled for 4th/5th place? not sure actually.. xD but knowing the possibilty of

1st. A pikachu main
2nd. A Yoshi main,

at a tournament!! >,<; woulda been sooo cool!

like REALLY got me excited!! =D can you blame me!?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure many of my sets got recorded, and or streamed, so I'll post them here as soon as they are up... but I could be wrong.. >.>; I DO KNOW, there are at least two sets on stream, me vs Axe (he sent me to losers) and me vs Crystal (Mizuki/Rubyiris).. so at least two sets! I had some interesting matches... 2 Falco's, a shiek, Mario, Samus, Fox, Peach, Marth.. got a lot of diversity this tourney.. was good times..

Anyway, my long post is done!!

Keep it going Yoshi's...!

oh aMSa! <3 <3 <3 I see you! and thanks for watching me play! Apex is right around the corner!

 

[MrHazuki]

I went to a tournament in Finland this weekend and played really well. Nothing recorded.
Got to bracket and won one match in losers, which by far tops anything I've ever done with Yoshi.
My parries are getting better and I've gotten a feel for how it feels to try hard with Yoshi in tournament.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm not sure I'd want to parry before all my jumps, it seems like something to do if you're not confident on what is going on, and it only benefits if they're trying to stop you from being in the air, but it will always slow you down from getting into the air. If you're doing a FJ anyway, you won't be able to punish unless they over-commit to something.

Also, glad to see everyone is going to tournaments still. Getting a mindset for trying hard with Yoshi is very strange. I play him quite a bit different in tournament compared to friendlies. Good luck in getting a feel for it.

 

[Bonsai]

Can someone show me a vid that shows why parrying is really good?

 

[Purpletuce]

I think knowing what it is is more useful than a video. It is a way for Yoshi to shield something, take no shieldstun or hitlag, and jump out of it. It also cannot be grabbed. Essentially it allows Yoshi to counter any move that he knows will hit him in a small (usually 4 or 5 frames) window.

 

[Bonsai]

I already kind of knew what it is, not that much in detail though. It sounds really good, but a video could actually show that it's good, and how much better it makes Yoshi.
(btw, it sounds like a powershield which has a longer window, is that the right way to see it?)

 

[Purpletuce]

A powershield has the benefit of allowing you to release shield more quickly I think. Parrying outright eliminates all stun, has a bigger window, cant be grabbed and allows yoshi to jump oos. The timing is like a powershield but Parrying is substantially better. Parrying also has the same abilities to deflect projectiles as power shielding.

If I wasn't on mobile id pull up a few videos.

Here are some examples of what you can do though:
After Parrying ganon's stomp, nair him before he hits the ground
After Parrying falco nair or dair approach, nair him before he can get a shine out
If falcon is one frame slow on a stomp tech Chase, nair him for It.

Those are practical examples that are commonly done. Here are the shennanigans you might see in a video:
After being fox u smashed, either shield drop aerial land dsmash or parry jump double jump land dsmash
Or (credit to bones) parry a FireFox sweetspot, slide off and double jump to grab the ledge.

 

[Dinowulf]

How ya doing Vman. You and amsa's yoshi videos has been a great help for me in melee where i've made some serious improvement fighting against friends (when i go visit them in florida-I live in alabama and the scene is dead where i'm living.) Anyways on which i believe is your most recent match in that southerwestern Justice match

at 1:22 - 1:24. I saw you do a Eggroll from the right platform to the left while rolling in the air.. is there a effective method to pulling that off and what is a good cpu opponent to practice your parries on?

 

[Purpletuce]

When you start your sideB, you will always bounce. If you start your sideB at a height where you will barely land on the platform, you will bounce again. You can move the bounce however you like.

Also, in that clip I saw vman practicing the DJC Dairs to fall quickly. Maybe it is just me, but I don't see those as worth learning. The only utility it has over doing a DJC FF Nair(which is must safer) is the difference between the AC lag of Dair and L cancel lag of Nair. I'd rather have a hitbox to protect me.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hey DemonicDragon, welcome to the yoshi boards, and I'm glad to hear that aMSa, and myself have been able to help your developmemt with the character!! that's awesome news to hear! ^^; Hopefully you continue your pursuit in perfection of Yoshi! n_n Yoshi's an awesome character to use.

I feel for you when you say your scene (or general area) is dead... I too, am in the same boat, I don't actually practice very often, (vs human opponents) most of my practice is solo practice, tech skill etc... and I understand the struggles, it is to become better, and/or maintain top level performance without having the luxuries of your peers... I live that life, (as again this has only been my 2nd AZ tourney this year) haha so I feel you...

Haha, yeah I actually came here to link my matches, because both of them did get uploaded... and it seems my other set(s) might have been record only, and or won't be uploaded.. (im positive SOMEONE has em, AZ's just a lil lazy).. well something's better than nothing I suppose... but you beat me to it..

vs Mizuki (winners round 3, 4?)- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRg2d7ksnAY
vs Axe - (winners semifinals) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rh737mQkY8

(I should probably watch these too^) but i'm busy

Basically what Purpletuce said ^ on how the egg bounce works, but it isn't really "useful" except to appeal the audience, or for tech savvy purposes.. It just looks REALLY cool to me on battlefield, since you can go from platform to platform.. and it's kind of like my "signature" if you will.. so I kinda just do it.. >.>; lol no real reason otherwise.

@Purpletuce - I understand you wanting the hitbox, but again, the hitbox isn't the initial purpose of this manuever to begin with... It's a SHOCKINLY amazing spacing/mindgame tool.. I'm not fully 100% confident with it yet, i'm like 80% confident with my consistency in the timing(s) of it, so I don't utilize too much in the spacies MU, but it's very useful in other matchups. It reminds me when I was trying to add shielddropping to my game, I don't wanna fully utilize it, till i'm 100% confident like I am with shielddrops, or a common skill like a wavedash.. xD... Again with that DJCDair, you can also fall diagonally and down, (to the left/right) also <- which is what I mean by saying im still tryna gain that consistency... You don't see it's potential now, and don worry you're not the only one... but aMSa, and I both PROMISE you all... this is a GREAT thing to learn, and add to your game, hopefully one of us (anyone really) will be able to demonstrate a good use for this...

I was also talking with aMSa, this morning, and he was also explaining to me, that DJCBair is very good also, and I too, wasn't fully understanding of it's potential... so I went into training mode, and fiddled with it.... DJCBair will likely see some increased usage also, as it's potential, I've come to somewhat fully understand. just like the DJCDair... aMSa, will be releasing a video of it (like he does with his Yoshi guides/tutorials.. and I've decided to team up with him also on these projects as I feel they will help many things.. he's shown me this, and all I've shown him is the potential...errr gimmick off egglay out of shield (well sorta outta shield).. xD I should get to work..

Anyway, thanks again.. and lets keep doing work Yoshi's!!

Also aMSa, we should try the Yoshi ladder at Apex, crowd would go crazy.. you been practicing that?

 

[Dinowulf]

Thanks for the advice. I have some djc expirence from Smash 64 (Kalliera) and Egg throwing from Brawl. So i almost got the ECE down. I saw the tip about Yoshi's quick left/right jiggle to recover from the spinning damage. I hope i can post some actual matches soon. someday lol. i hope to upload some clips in January until then i will be watching you and amsa for apex. it's a freaking team dream for me.