Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Kimimaru]

Or (credit to bones) parry a FireFox sweetspot, slide off and double jump to grab the ledge.

By this do you mean timing a dash attack and holding shield so when a Firefox/bird hits you, you'll parry the attack and thus slide off because you were holding shield at the edge?

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm aware that DJC Dair you can move diagonally as well, but that isn't a valid reason for using it over DJC Nair, because you have equal movement with any DJC aerial. The only difference Dair offers is the AC frames. To be specific, it allows you to be actionable exactly 3 frames earlier, which is the same as half of your jumpsquat animation.

I just feel like the benefit of having a hitbox to protect you is more beneficial than the marginal frame advantage of the DJC Dair.

Also, I'm sure most Yoshis use DJC Bair, it is probably one of the most common ways I space. That, fullhop Bair, Dtilt and Ftilt.

edit:
Kimi, I think run/WD toward the ledge then pressing shield at the right time would allow you to get the parry out and then have the momentum pull you off the stage so you can DJC to grab it.

 

[V3ctorMan]

EDIT: I was going to upload just once of MANY scenarios where DJCDair/Bair would be useful, but aMSa, has kindly done that for me... Here's an example.. for the others, just try and use your imagination ok... You guys REALLY need to see/realize the usefulness of this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30dIVROcNho&feature=youtu.be

thanks for the upload aMSa!

 

[Kimimaru]

Wow, that's more useful than I originally thought! Since Yoshi moves his entire body backwards when using that move, it's great at retreating, and it has those auto cancel frames!

 

[V3ctorMan]

^again, i wouldn't lie to you guys...

You gotta believe me on some things..

^^; that's just one example too, there are like.. 5 others, that I wanna showcase in terms of the amazing potential it has..

 

[Sashimi]

This kind of reminds me of trying to explain Wavedashing to someone new to the game. The most common response is "why wavedash when you can roll?"

I think we should trust aMSa and Vectorman. The applications might not be obvious at first, but having that extra level of control over Yoshi's movement can't be a bad thing...

 

[Dinowulf]

EDIT: I was going to upload just once of MANY scenarios where DJCDair/Bair would be useful, but aMSa, has kindly done that for me... Here's an example.. for the others, just try and use your imagination ok... You guys REALLY need to see/realize the usefulness of this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30dIVROcNho&feature=youtu.be

thanks for the upload aMSa!

Okay now that's just nuts. I never considered using DJCbair especially since i didn't think bair was a useful attacking move to begin with..but i will be using this first chance i get against a 2nd Player.

 

[Purpletuce]

Whenever I wanted to fake out a jump, I'd DJC and airdodge, although I think airdodge has the advantage of giving you some more safety, it is slower when you hit the ground. I've been doing that for a long time as well, and I'm not sure that I'd be interested in learning a new technique that is less safe at the benefit of a few frames. I think what is being described is certainly flashier, but not necessarily better.

I see this as a parallel to shine landing onto platforms. Shine landing is a faster way of landing on platforms than wavelanding(it replaces the waveland land of 10 frames with shine startup, which is 4 or 6 frames, so the advantage is at most 6 frames), but slightly harder to do, and if you make a mistake is slightly less forgiving. You don't see top level players shine landing onto platforms though. I think that is because the reliability of the technique isn't worth the frame advantage. I think that also applies to DJC Dair to fall(4 frame advantage) and using Bair to fake out a jump(6 frame advantage).

I would say that although those options are flashier, they aren't necessary, and might not even be beneficial(net gain(how often&how much you benefit from the small increase in speed) > net loss(how often&how severely you're punished for making a mistake)) for practical purposes.

Finally, I wouldn't say to trust aMSa or V3ctorman. Not that I don't trust them, or think they would be misleading. I think everyone should know why they're doing something. I don't know how you(PerhapsMan) came to the conclusion that they are the players to listen to, but I don't think that Yoshi, as a character, is developed enough for anyone to concretely say what is a good option. If you don't understand what you're doing, you probably won't implement it properly, and are limiting yourself for no reason. I'm not too good at interpreting things off of the internet, but your(PerhapsMan) remark seemed condescending. Where the scenario of roll vs wavedash is a difference where the difference in speed is 18-21 frames (depending on direction), the scenario we're talking about is 4-6 frames(much less reward for learning the technique), and burns your DJ(learning the technique risks you losing your stock, as opposed to WD which doesn't carry any increased risk).

 

[Sashimi]

I didn't mean to sound condescending at all. Really, I intended the opposite; that aMSa and V3ctorman have better judgement about these things than I do. The wavedashing/rolling thing was just a quick example. I didn't mean anything by it.

Also, I never came to the conclusion that they're the players to listen to. I take all of your opinions more seriously than my own.

 

[Purpletuce]

All? Although I do think it is important to take advice from others, and constructively learn from them, but I don't think you should dismiss all of your opinions so quickly. You probably formed those opinions for a reason, and to dismiss your opinions is to dismiss what you learned while you made them. You should give yourself more credit than that.

 

[Kimimaru]

Whenever I wanted to fake out a jump, I'd DJC and airdodge, although I think airdodge has the advantage of giving you some more safety, it is slower when you hit the ground. I've been doing that for a long time as well, and I'm not sure that I'd be interested in learning a new technique that is less safe at the benefit of a few frames. I think what is being described is certainly flashier, but not necessarily better

DJC -> Airdodging isn't as safe since it's slower and thus easier to punish. I personally don't see how DJC B-air would be any less safe since it's faster and you end up using your double jump anyway.

I see this as a parallel to shine landing onto platforms. Shine landing is a faster way of landing on platforms than wavelanding(it replaces the waveland land of 10 frames with shine startup, which is 4 or 6 frames, so the advantage is at most 6 frames), but slightly harder to do, and if you make a mistake is slightly less forgiving. You don't see top level players shine landing onto platforms though. I think that is because the reliability of the technique isn't worth the frame advantage. I think that also applies to DJC Dair to fall(4 frame advantage) and using Bair to fake out a jump(6 frame advantage).

Yoshi's parallels to shine land are DJ Lands and any sort of autocancels using his DJ, which are even better than shine lands because they're much easier to do and you can use Yoshi's DJ to influence your movement in more ways than shine can.[/quote]

 

[Purpletuce]

DJ -> low airdodge/waveland seems more safe because of the invincibility frames. I occasionally mess around with it as a janky bait.

I wasn't saying DJC Dair is yoshis best parallel to shine landing, I was saying the speed gain offered by DJC Dair as opposed to DJC Nair is on a similar level to the speed gains of shine landing as opposed to wavelanding.

 

[Dinowulf]

While I was practicing on training mode I found myself accidentally pivot grabbing with yoshi. And by pivot grabbing I mean his move from brawl. Now while this may be a accident do you think it could be of some use in melee?

 

[Kimimaru]

Pivot grabbing can be pretty good occasionally for Yoshi. I have one example where it helped me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB7MDlAXbvM&t=2m57s

Yoshi's standing grab is basically worse than his running grab in every way, but you can use pivot grabbing as a mixup.

 

[Dinowulf]

So i was playing melee with some friends on Monday and Using the down tilt (Off the ledge) I Egged my opponent 5 times in a row. (He broke out of them 4 times before dying on the fifth shot). Do you guys think that would be a good tactic to use during matches. While they may break out of the egg and the timing of each egg will have to be precise, (I do it in a diagonal fashion off the ledge egglay them return back to the edge and if they break out depending on speed i reset the process making more damage) your thoughts?

P.S One thing i've noticed while watching yoshi matches i don't see the egglay move (ledge) used often. this move is really good especially against Falco/Fox

 

[Kimimaru]

I use Egg Lay after a tech chase if I'm too far to reset or do something else before they get up and shield. It's good at getting your opponent into the air if that's where you want them. It's risky on the edge because it's slow, and they can just bait it and hit you out of your double jump. I sometimes use it when falling back to the stage and still have my double jump, but I'll never use it if I don't have it unless there's just no way I'm making it back anyway.

It definitely has its uses, but I would use it as a mixup. I wouldn't rely on it for edgeguarding, considering you have better options that are guaranteed, and it has a lot of lag.

 

[Kimimaru]

Look at the second point of trivia on the Smashpedia: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Yoshi_(SSBM)

It says: "Yoshi also gains absolute Launch resistance during the first few frames of his second jump, which allows him to only absorb the brunt of a very powerful attack that would usually KO him upon impact."

I think this says Yoshi won't suffer any knockback at all during those first few frames, but I don't believe it. Can someone confirm or deny it?

 

[MrHazuki]

His jump is like an aerial CC. That's pretty much all there is to it. The link has false information.

 

[Sashimi]

Yeah, there tends to be a lot of misinformation about Yoshi on most sites, particularly about his Double Jump and about Parrying.

 

[Shiri]

Yoshi's standing grab is basically worse than his running grab in every way, but you can use pivot grabbing as a mixup.

Going to have to respectfully disagree. Standing grab very clearly loses in speed, but beats dash grab in every other dimension.

 

[MrHazuki]

This is like comparing a turd with chocolate sprinkles to a turd with glitter. Either way, Yoshi's grab-game is crap.

 

[Purpletuce]

Yoshi's grab follow-ups are pretty good. I generally don't grab very much, but it can be worth it. I would only go for a grab when it is a kind of hard-read on the situation, so it really wouldn't matter much if I used either or. . . Dash grab is better over-all, but standing grab is easier to hit with (there are some strange mechanics that allow you to grab through tall characters more easily with dash grab)

I'd assume the wiki is wrong.

 

[Sashimi]

I use standing grab sometimes. It can be valuable.

And Yoshi's grab game is deceptively good. If you can parry consistently, you'll have plenty of opportunities to land grabs.

 

[Dinowulf]

All some good advice from everyone i'll remember that. i almost got used to parrying at will once i master that i think i'll improve a lot.

 

[Kimimaru]

Here's the other match I had recorded at that tournament last month: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1ZSl7BtGU

 

[Sashimi]

Here's the other match I had recorded at that tournament last month: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1ZSl7BtGU

I just spent all day losing to my friend who mains Sheik in friendlies, so coming home to see this was awesome. Congrats on your win, and thanks for uploading. It was very helpful to watch!

 

[Purpletuce]

Very intertaining to watch, Kimi. Super good stuff, I liked the way you spaced with Fair and Usmash. . .

Game one was so stressful to watch. :x

Edit: Also, Purple Yoshi is in PM <3

 

[Kimimaru]

My thoughts on PM Yoshi:

Pros: Jump OOS, better N-air and B-air hitboxes, slightly faster grabs, U-air chains

Cons: Weaker D-smash, almost no follow-ups after grabs, less safe/effective ECEs, weaker combo game

I honestly think Yoshi is a weaker overall character in PM than in Melee. I was pretty disappointed when I played him yesterday, especially when I found out his D-smash was much weaker.

 

[Sashimi]

I was also disappointed with Down Smash, but I'm fairly impressed with PM Yoshi so far.

I honestly think Yoshi is a weaker overall character in PM than in Melee.

If you get a chance, watch V3ctorman's stream of PM Yoshi from last night (assuming it was recorded). He did some really good stuff with Yoshi. I think Yoshi's combo game is slightly better than Melee's, but you have to go for slightly different things (try getting follow ups out of Dair, for example). There are still some Melee things that work, though.

 

[Kimimaru]

These were just my initial impressions from only a few hours of play. I was hoping they'd keep his Melee combo game and add new things, but it looks like they changed a little too much regarding how some of his moves are used when there was no problem with them before.

In my opinion, this is all I think they needed to change/add for Yoshi:

-Less lag on ground moves
-Better hitboxes on N-air and B-air, and longer lasting hitboxes on U-tilt, F-air, and Egg Lay
-Jump OOS
-Smash 64 super armor knockback threshold (breaks way later than in Melee)
-Faster grabs
-Side B aiding recovery
-Up + B recovery like in Brawl (also makes ECEs less risky and not require you to use your DJ)
-Slightly faster run speed

Granted, they did implement a good bit of these (Ex. 64 U-tilt), but they didn't preserve the Melee feel as well as I'd hoped. Another thing I don't like is how much further you have to drop down to insta-grab the edge.

However, one thing I really like about PM regarding DJC characters is that you can choose to do a rising aerial or a DJC one depending on how long you hold the jump button after double jumping.

 

[Sashimi]

Yeah, I'm with you on the turnaround ledge grab. Having to drop further really threw me off at first.

 

[V3ctorMan]

My thoughts on P.M are definetely different than Kimi's... Down, and upthrow.. have stupid combos now.. lol.... the ECE game is indeed weaker, but it's safety, is the same... (the timing is different that's for sure)... Yoshi's uair damage increase is pure GOLD... with Fair connection on the ground now... Yoshi's grounded Fair>Uair.. is almost like Uthrow>uair with fox... it's freaking gold...Ftilt is faster with the same priority... Uair is amazing..

going lower on the turn around ledge grab, is different.. but P.M. for the MOST part is at least... a small upgrade...

yeah if you can watch my stream... Yoshi's got some crazy good potential

 

[Purpletuce]

My Wii is super messed up, so I haven't really played yet, but the colors are exciting. He'll probably be a really annoying character like everyone else in PM (my opinion).

 

[V3ctorMan]

even if he is annoying... (cuz to someone out there he will be) on the good news, they have a color yoshi for you purpletuce

 

[V3ctorMan]

double post... but here's my P.M. yoshi.. playing vs calabrel... ^^ - http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman/b/487255061

my 2nd time playing, and they've done yoshi pretty well... sadly, this may/may not be my last time playing since i really wanna focus on melee... but had a fun time...

EDIT: if anyone, can, if they can send me, anything really cool things (combos i did) etc... it'd be nice, i wanna do a small yoshi video.. showcasing some tricks/things with yoshi... ^^

if not it's fine too.. but I suppose just showcasing how awesome P.M. yoshi is...

 

[MrHazuki]

Just found a pretty neat thing. Jump from ledge on DL64 lets Yoshi waveland with very few frames to spare, or get into shield fast. You don't get that much invincibility, but it is faster than ledgehop.

 

[Kimimaru]

Does anyone have tips against Falcons that wait for you to make a move first then react to whatever you do?

 

[Sashimi]

Does anyone have tips against Falcons that wait for you to make a move first then react to whatever you do?

A friend of mine recently had this to say about Falcon: If he throws out an aerial before you, it'll probably win. If he throws out an aerial after you, it'll probably lose.

One trick I like to do against Falcons is use Short hop Bair if they get too close when waiting for you to attack. You can land it behind them, so even if they shield, you can't get grabbed, and if they try to use Dair out of shield, you can Utilt them. At the right %, this Utilt can lead to 3 Up Smashes in a row or Uair juggles.


Some better players will have better advice, but I thought I'd share my two cents. aMSa has a few really good Captain Falcon sets on Youtube (Hax, SilentSpectre, Gucci), so if you haven't seen those, check them out.

 

[Purpletuce]

If he is always waiting for your action, put yourself in a position where you're taking up more space than he is. If he keeps waiting, eventually you can push him back to the point where he has to make a move, and you can respond to it. This is pretty hard to do, but if you get good at recognizing when the Falcon wants to wait, you can stop committing to things, and work on taking space.

I'm sure that the better Falcons you face, the less apparent it will be that they are being patient, and the less effective this advice will be. . .

 

[yoshiiscool]

Does anyone have tips against Falcons that wait for you to make a move first then react to whatever you do?

Kimi, this doesn't sound like much of a Falcon problem, as much as a neutral-game problem in general. There are a few things you should definitely take into consideration while playing against defensive opponents, two main things being they're allowing you more free stage control, and nobody can perfectly react to everything (especially with Yoshi twitch movements) so a reactionary play-style leads to easier baits.

When I say stage control, I mean pushing them to a corner, keeping center stage and approaching smartly without putting yourself at risk (you don't need to actually attack, just threaten space). A defensive player that's not looking to engage will continue dashdancing waiting for something to happen, until you've pressured them to make their own bad decisions ie retreating to platforms, or making their own approaching mistakes you can either avoid/punish, DJCC, parry punish, whatever. In other words, get in close with non-commital options to make them feel uneasy and switch away from their preferred gameplan. For falcon in general, understand that your ground game is much more solid than his in terms of everything but grabs, so know he'll want to punish with either an aerial, or grab, both of which are stuffable by different things. Just be patient, and approach mostly grounded until you're in a situation where going to the air isn't going to be as easily punishable (but that doesn't mean still staying grounded is bad either).

Yoshi is actually a great character for playing against a lot of defensive playstyles, like Marth or Falcon (defensive foxs though... ehhhh) because of all of his movement options. Like I said nobody can react perfectly to anything, and with a lot of the stuff Yoshi has at his disposal to really mess up spacing, and mess up the opponents anticipation of your movement, it's relatively easy to feint your way into your opponents mind and defenses. Try doing things like overextending dash into DJL to reset into standing, where you can either throw out a f-tilt wall, or restart your dashdance immediately to continue pressing stage, try using DJC back baits, and definitely don't take the new auto-cancel D-air tricks lightly, please, they are extremely useful. I've punished many people myself with things like full jump RDJC d-air cancel, and punished as they attempted to follow up to where they expected me to be. It's all a very mental game where you have to understand what they are waiting for, and how they're looking to punish once they react.

(Also this is a personal thing I've noticed about your playstyle, you're very formulaic in your movement, and it's easy to read you and know what you want to do, especially when coming down from platforms. Try adding in some DJC-dair off of platforms instead of always going for the more aggressive options. Every lower platform of the neutral stages can be run off, and immediately RDJC d-air cancel to get the movement of your RDJC, with no landing lag to grab immediately, or just dash away, start DJC n-air pressure, anything you want, the possibilities are endless, so stop just f-airing. This gives you an option to mix up on shields, make them guess f-air or d-air cancel so you have a better chance of landing the f-airs when you do decide to go with that option, since they know you have an option against shields with the d-air cancels)

I dunno if that all made sense, but for the past like 3 years or so, I've been playing more traditional fighters taking a break from melee, so I tend to try to think more in terms of spatial and mental awareness now. One of the big things I try to tell people around my area that are trying to get better (and you are far better than the people I normally get to play with, probably even me xD) is that if the opponent knows what you want to/are going to do, then you've pretty much already lost. So keep that in mind. Hope that helped, but it probably didn't. I'm bad.