soju
SD God
Ganon is a fairly scary matchup for Pikachu, I'd choose going against a Falcon over Ganon any day.
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Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!
- Thread starter N64
- Start date
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I thought Ganon vs Pika was near even... I thought he outspaced Pika and could get brutal kills but gets gimped hard and combo'd pretty good. Plus Pika can edgeguard him pretty easily.
soju
SD God
I think the fact that ganon can kill start killing you at 50%, has arms the length of pikachu's body, and if they know what they're doing, shut down your recovery completely, it makes up for what you can do to him. And Falcon is much better combo-bait to pikachu then ganon, seeing as your bread and butter uair, uthrow, usmash combos won't work as well.
N64
Smash Champion
Well, i guess you got me there. I consider ganon v pika a better matchup (if only slightly), so it depends on whether you consider ganon high tier or not.
Edit: But honestly, they're both pretty close to eachother in difficulty imo.
Edit: But honestly, they're both pretty close to eachother in difficulty imo.
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
Even though ganon-pika is pretty even, it really is my scariest matchup. You falter for just a second and it doesn't take many hits for ganon to give you a lot of damage. Just plain freaky.
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
I think it's pretty even too...although if I recall correctly, the popular consensus is that Ganon has the advantage.
I'd say that Pika fairs equally well against both Ganon and Falcon (both even), but has a slight mental edge in the Falcon MU since Ganon seems to instill fear by the very sight of him. Juse use a Parlyz Heal
I'd say that Pika fairs equally well against both Ganon and Falcon (both even), but has a slight mental edge in the Falcon MU since Ganon seems to instill fear by the very sight of him. Juse use a Parlyz Heal
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
N64 i was looking at your pika guide and i was wondering is sheik really a 20-80? Now i understand that sheik is a terrible MU for pika but to me a 20-80 means pretty much unwinnable. Now i dont know much about this MU seeing as i dont use ether of the characters involved, but when axe was playing kk in the world crew battle it didnt look like a 20-80. Now i understand that was just one example and should not be a sole determining factor for the MU ratio but I just find it hard to believe that anyone could do that well against a top sheik in such a terrible MU. I was thinking it might be a 30-70 but that might be to low and i know it seems nit-picky but r u sure its not more like a 25-75.
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
THe chaingrab makes the matchup pretty stupid. It's closer when sheik doesn't use it.
soju
SD God
Match-up ratio's can't really apply to Axe, due to his pika being pretty much the current peak any pikachu can get, it would be different if it was another pika like me or most people on this board.
Anyways, I realized how combo-able pikachu is by Marth yesterday, it's a sad thing. . . :/
Anyways, I realized how combo-able pikachu is by Marth yesterday, it's a sad thing. . . :/
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
Yeah man, the moment you're caught above Marth you're liable to eat 30~50% lol anti-combo DI/SDI Marth's attacks and stay below him her.
Personally, I'd put Sheik at 30-70. ICs on the other hand...
The last few posts made me realize how inexperienced I am in a bunch of these matchups. Nobody I play with nowadays plays Marth or Sheik, ever.
EDIT: Watching Axe's vs Marth videos lately...starting to think that one of the primary reasons Axe does so well vs Marths is that he has amazing punishing ability against Marth's OoS options.
anti-combo DI/SDI Marth's attacks and stay below Personally, I'd put Sheik at 30-70. ICs on the other hand...
The last few posts made me realize how inexperienced I am in a bunch of these matchups. Nobody I play with nowadays plays Marth or Sheik, ever.
EDIT: Watching Axe's vs Marth videos lately...starting to think that one of the primary reasons Axe does so well vs Marths is that he has amazing punishing ability against Marth's OoS options.
N64
Smash Champion
Sheik just has a ton of options against Pikachu. KK has said specifically that Pika is one of his personal problem matchups, and previously Sheiks have done really well against Pikachus in general. Realistically, I don't see any matchup being more difficult for Pikachu than Sheik, unless some crazy new stuff is figured out.
Chainthrow is rough, but even outside of that it's really tough. Ftilt beats a lot of your options, her shorthopped fair wrecks your approach game, and bair outspaces everything you have. Her jab is also really, really good, and limits your pressure options close while also setting up grabs. Also her dsmash is just a pain because it outranges everything you have on the ground and comes out instantly.
Edgeguarding sheik can be tricky because of her upB hitbox and array of options. If you chase her off you have to worry about taking a fair/bair to the face if you miss. And if you stay on the ledge then you'll have a tough time beating her recovery. You have to rely on sneakily stealing the ledge from her, and if she goes for the stage anyways then you'll usually get a punish, but nothing lethal until she's at like 80% when usmash kills.
You have some alright combos on sheik, they're fun to do if anything. Just getting in in a way that you can start them off is tough.
Then there's needles to limit your mobility.
If she doesn't grab at all, it's probably like 40-60. She still punishes you harder than you punish her, and has better defensive tools and about equally good offensive options as Pikach. But add on to all that that her grab is lethal at almost any percent, and it's a bad matchup.
The numbers were decided on by primarily Axe, Chad, and myself, about a year and a half ago when teh_icy was doing his matchupchart stuff. Things may have changed slightly metagame-wise since then, but I generally agree with the numbers. (At least even if the values are off, if you ordered all chars by their listed values, you'd have a list of the difficulty of Pika's matchups that I agree with)
Edit: It's generally agreed upon as his worst matchup. However you want to represent that numerically is fine, as long as it remains his worst.
Chainthrow is rough, but even outside of that it's really tough. Ftilt beats a lot of your options, her shorthopped fair wrecks your approach game, and bair outspaces everything you have. Her jab is also really, really good, and limits your pressure options close while also setting up grabs. Also her dsmash is just a pain because it outranges everything you have on the ground and comes out instantly.
Edgeguarding sheik can be tricky because of her upB hitbox and array of options. If you chase her off you have to worry about taking a fair/bair to the face if you miss. And if you stay on the ledge then you'll have a tough time beating her recovery. You have to rely on sneakily stealing the ledge from her, and if she goes for the stage anyways then you'll usually get a punish, but nothing lethal until she's at like 80% when usmash kills.
You have some alright combos on sheik, they're fun to do if anything. Just getting in in a way that you can start them off is tough.
Then there's needles to limit your mobility.
If she doesn't grab at all, it's probably like 40-60. She still punishes you harder than you punish her, and has better defensive tools and about equally good offensive options as Pikach. But add on to all that that her grab is lethal at almost any percent, and it's a bad matchup.
The numbers were decided on by primarily Axe, Chad, and myself, about a year and a half ago when teh_icy was doing his matchupchart stuff. Things may have changed slightly metagame-wise since then, but I generally agree with the numbers. (At least even if the values are off, if you ordered all chars by their listed values, you'd have a list of the difficulty of Pika's matchups that I agree with)
Edit: It's generally agreed upon as his worst matchup. However you want to represent that numerically is fine, as long as it remains his worst.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
ok i got another question, but b4 i ask it i just want to say i am not arguing here so i apologize if it comes off that way. I just am asking questions b/c i am lacking pika knowledge.
So i was also kinda surprised to see the ratio vs space animals. I always assumed they had the advantage but 65-35 surprised me. I kinda figured pika could combo them very well, plus he was fast enough to keep up with fox and small enough to maybe maneuver around falco's lasers. plus pika is crazy good at gimping, and while not immune to the spacie gimping game (ie falco's dair and fox's shine) pikas long distance up-B would help negate that to some degree. Now i understand i only wrote pika positives in the MU but it just seems to me that pika has more going for him/her/it then many other characters, which is why i am surprised u put it at a 65/35.
So i was also kinda surprised to see the ratio vs space animals. I always assumed they had the advantage but 65-35 surprised me. I kinda figured pika could combo them very well, plus he was fast enough to keep up with fox and small enough to maybe maneuver around falco's lasers. plus pika is crazy good at gimping, and while not immune to the spacie gimping game (ie falco's dair and fox's shine) pikas long distance up-B would help negate that to some degree. Now i understand i only wrote pika positives in the MU but it just seems to me that pika has more going for him/her/it then many other characters, which is why i am surprised u put it at a 65/35.
giovannig22311
Smash Journeyman
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
^I suggest reading N64's guide: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312544
Pika can maneuver around Falco's laser game better than others but it still forces Pika into disadvantageous positions which reduces his already limited approaches AND on top of that opens up Falco's approach options (which even without lasers can easily beat Pika's approaches)...which in essence is the whole purpose of Falco's laser game - not to damage, but to control. In this case, Falco only has slightly less control over Pika than he has over larger clunkier characters.
Fox typically outmaneuvers Pika in every way other than recovery options, and even without the maneuvering Fox can have similar options-per-scenario that all outprioritize Pika's own (Pika's uair oos pales vs Fox's shine oos, Fox's dtilt/usmash/grab outranges Pika's, almost all of Fox's aerials stuff Pika's aerials, etc.)
Pika's entire game is relying on getting a single solid hit and hoping that it leads to a combo/KO, but the difficulty all lies in even getting to hit them with Fox's speed and Falco's laser zoning. Fox and Falco have multiple opportunities to hit you and can also combo/KO/0-death you with enough precision. Essentially, Pika's land-hit-to-big-combo/gimp advantage is something that both Falco and Fox also have over Pika, but with the added bonus that they can approach/hit you more often/more easily, not to mention that they can get you to KO percentage that much faster. Their only weaknesses are much easier comboability and edgeguardability.
EDIT: I just realized that you're the Peach I talked to from the stream. Hey.
I'd say it's a fair rating.
Pika can maneuver around Falco's laser game better than others but it still forces Pika into disadvantageous positions which reduces his already limited approaches AND on top of that opens up Falco's approach options (which even without lasers can easily beat Pika's approaches)...which in essence is the whole purpose of Falco's laser game - not to damage, but to control. In this case, Falco only has slightly less control over Pika than he has over larger clunkier characters.
Fox typically outmaneuvers Pika in every way other than recovery options, and even without the maneuvering Fox can have similar options-per-scenario that all outprioritize Pika's own (Pika's uair oos pales vs Fox's shine oos, Fox's dtilt/usmash/grab outranges Pika's, almost all of Fox's aerials stuff Pika's aerials, etc.)
Pika's entire game is relying on getting a single solid hit and hoping that it leads to a combo/KO, but the difficulty all lies in even getting to hit them with Fox's speed and Falco's laser zoning. Fox and Falco have multiple opportunities to hit you and can also combo/KO/0-death you with enough precision. Essentially, Pika's land-hit-to-big-combo/gimp advantage is something that both Falco and Fox also have over Pika, but with the added bonus that they can approach/hit you more often/more easily, not to mention that they can get you to KO percentage that much faster. Their only weaknesses are much easier comboability and edgeguardability.
EDIT: I just realized that you're the Peach I talked to from the stream. Hey.
N64
Smash Champion
Basically what dkuo said. *yay less typing for me*
I'd like to add that Fox and Falco have a pretty good defensive game against Pikachu, and if they choose to abuse that then it makes a ton of difference. Pikachu can keep up with them, and he does have a really good punish game on them, but the difficulty is actually hitting them. Getting through their strong aerials, as well as utilts, lasers (for Falco), threat of usmash (for Fox), and of course their excellent mobility to help position these tools, is tough.
The match relies a lot on Fox/Falco playing safe and not making tech mistakes, but if they do that then it's really tough for Pikachu to get in.
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And to giovannig, +1 to reading my guide.
If you want some quick short tips, work on understanding Pikachu's movements, as it's a really really important part of his game. Get used to varying his dashdance, wavedashing consistently with him, shffling aerials, and just moving around the stage quickly.
I'd like to add that Fox and Falco have a pretty good defensive game against Pikachu, and if they choose to abuse that then it makes a ton of difference. Pikachu can keep up with them, and he does have a really good punish game on them, but the difficulty is actually hitting them. Getting through their strong aerials, as well as utilts, lasers (for Falco), threat of usmash (for Fox), and of course their excellent mobility to help position these tools, is tough.
The match relies a lot on Fox/Falco playing safe and not making tech mistakes, but if they do that then it's really tough for Pikachu to get in.
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And to giovannig, +1 to reading my guide.
If you want some quick short tips, work on understanding Pikachu's movements, as it's a really really important part of his game. Get used to varying his dashdance, wavedashing consistently with him, shffling aerials, and just moving around the stage quickly.
Spyro
Smash Ace
Been holding it like this for a while now and it feels pretty natural now, the only things I can't really do consistintly that I could do befor is...Here is how i've been trying out holding my controler, my left and is the same as it was befor, I just have my pointer finger on the :ltrigger: and thumb and the :stick5:. However the way I hold it with my right hand is pretty weird. I put my thumb on the
Wavedashing (I only need a little bit more work with this)
Wavedashing oos
Short-hoping with some of the "harder" charcters to short-hop with
When I can do these things consistintly I will start practicing things like consistant ledge canceling, up throw -> shine -> nair/bair with fox, maximising my Pikachu tech skill and other really technical stuff.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
@dkuo: first off thanks for the response. 2nd i am sure i am the peach u talked to but if u dont mind reminding me which stream? Its just its been a little bit of time since i watched a stream but when i do i am pretty talkative. Also i forget names easily so dont be offended i need some clarification. also my name on streams is whatnamenottaken.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
I remember this kinda, like it was b4 apex and i remember talking to leffen and other people about stuff. I got to ask leffen some yoshi stuff which was kinda cool. Anyway dont tke offense that i dont remember u specifically i am just kinda crap with names as i said b4.
N64
Smash Champion
I'd just like to let you all know.
Pikachu board is the best board in character specific. You guys rock. Keep keepin this place awesome.
Yoshi boards could catch up at any moment though, so don't let your awesome down. KEEP AWESOME LEVELS UP. *expectant stare*
Pikachu board is the best board in character specific. You guys rock. Keep keepin this place awesome.
Yoshi boards could catch up at any moment though, so don't let your awesome down. KEEP AWESOME LEVELS UP. *expectant stare*
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
It is best board.
yey ^^
yey ^^
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Yoshi > Pikachu
Jus saying
<3 Pika players
Jus saying
<3 Pika players
Sapphire Dragon
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 4,789
- Location
- Let go of the scars that define you.
- NNID
- SapphireRyu
- 3DS FC
- 3351-4374-1516
- Switch FC
- SW-2172-6976-4896
I smell some epic Yoshi vs Pikachu friendly/MM matches brewing... :D
N64
Smash Champion
TONIGHT WE MARCH ON THE YOSHI BOARDS. DOWN WITH THE YOSH.
j/k, <3 vman and yoshibros
j/k, <3 vman and yoshibros
AXE 09
Smash Master
Spyro
Smash Ace
LOL!Yoshi > Pikachu
Jus saying
<3 Pika players
You're funny Vman.
*EDIT*:Can't belevive I typed "your" instead of "you're" lol, O well it was 6 AM on a monday morning.
soju
SD God
Not going to lie, Yoshi is fairly hype.
Spyro
Smash Ace
I really want to figure out a way to make Pikachu vs Shiek more winnable and not so one sided. I think that's going to be one of my goals as a Pikachu main 
. I know it's going to take a lot of figuring out but I know I'm going to be determined to figure it out.
. I know it's going to take a lot of figuring out but I know I'm going to be determined to figure it out.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I know why Axe is so good. He is a, a, a SUPER SAIYAIN
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhH2VW24gQ74caEUk5
<3
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhH2VW24gQ74caEUk5
<3
Spyro
Smash Ace
LOL @ that kid in the video, I can't help but feel sorry for them though, he must have got laughed at so much at when he got back to school.
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
hey guys, would you say that when playing vs doc you would definitely avoid yoshi's story? i told a doc player at a tourney recently that they don't really need to ban it vs pikas since most pika players think yoshi's is pika's worst stage (this is after he banned it against me twice since he was afraid of the quick usmash ko.) what do you guys think? i don't want to feel bad for giving bad advice lol.
personally though i'd probably pick yoshi's over dreamland. i'm not very patient lol. also would you say that banning fd is a good choice?
personally though i'd probably pick yoshi's over dreamland. i'm not very patient lol. also would you say that banning fd is a good choice?
N64
Smash Champion
I ban FD vs doc. Yoshis feels give and take for me in the matchup, because you do die really early, but sometimes in the matchup Doc does want to get away and create some space, which is tough on yoshis. I don't know if I'd go as far as to counterpick Yoshis (I have a softspot for FoD), but if I was having trouble staying on top of Doc I'd consider it.
Dreamland is probably the best CP if you don't have that much issue approaching Doc, as you just live so much longer and he gains almost nothing from the further sides.
Dreamland is probably the best CP if you don't have that much issue approaching Doc, as you just live so much longer and he gains almost nothing from the further sides.
soju
SD God
I've been seeing that video now for a while and he gave me inspiration when i first saw it *o* If you put your mind to something, there's nothing you can't do, I believe he will become super saiyan one day. =w=b
Anyways, the fact that I've been focusing a lot less on fast fallers and focusing more on the mid-weight characters are making me like those match-ups better. Sheik included, I learned you can combo a lot of things from your nair on her(grab, usmash, another nair) at almost any % except 0 and past 100 or so. I've already just gotten through the phase of Pikachu is garbo due to these reasons(insert hug joke here), now I'm learning about his minor strengths and trying to improve them greatly. I mean you can even do a sort of pillar shield pressure when behind your opponent by doing a simple rising uair, fast fall nair and the only thing they can do is roll and I believe its useful because you can do it right after a Shffled nair. I've also got my own weaknesses in mind now so I've been working on that. . . Alone. . . In My Room TTwTT. Anyways, I have a tournament next week, and one the week right after that, so I hope to do better then I usually do.
Oh yeah, the doc matchup is stupid, he dominates you completely on stage so just throw him off stage and watch him struggle to come back, jump out then do any move, hey look I just took a stock, that's just how dumb that matchup is :/ The way I said it makes it sounds easy, which is the complete opposite, but that's pretty much how it works out, it's extremely tough facing doc onstage but extremely easy dealing with him offstage.
Anyways, the fact that I've been focusing a lot less on fast fallers and focusing more on the mid-weight characters are making me like those match-ups better. Sheik included, I learned you can combo a lot of things from your nair on her(grab, usmash, another nair) at almost any % except 0 and past 100 or so. I've already just gotten through the phase of Pikachu is garbo due to these reasons(insert hug joke here), now I'm learning about his minor strengths and trying to improve them greatly. I mean you can even do a sort of pillar shield pressure when behind your opponent by doing a simple rising uair, fast fall nair and the only thing they can do is roll and I believe its useful because you can do it right after a Shffled nair. I've also got my own weaknesses in mind now so I've been working on that. . . Alone. . . In My Room TTwTT. Anyways, I have a tournament next week, and one the week right after that, so I hope to do better then I usually do.
Oh yeah, the doc matchup is stupid, he dominates you completely on stage so just throw him off stage and watch him struggle to come back, jump out then do any move, hey look I just took a stock, that's just how dumb that matchup is :/ The way I said it makes it sounds easy, which is the complete opposite, but that's pretty much how it works out, it's extremely tough facing doc onstage but extremely easy dealing with him offstage.
AXE 09
Smash Master
Lol!!!!! That's so totaly me XD!
As far as Yoshi's against Doc, I personally don't like that stage but I still feel like it's not a bad stage for Pika vs Doc. I would probably still feel pretty neutral there if he took me there, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't counterpick it either. I'm in love with battlefield lol
Spyro
Smash Ace
We all know how much Axe loves Battlefield . I really like pokemon stadium in general .
. I really like pokemon stadium in general .
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
Imo the only reason people think yoshi's is bad for pika is because the blast zones are shorter than pika's quick attack potential. Otherwise it's completely up to your own opinion. It's a stage that really doesn't allow running around as much, which is probably why I don't like it that much, except in certain matchups. I actually like the marth matchup here because it's all up and in your face, forcing the two players to a battle of wills and smarts. But as for doc, I think his camping outdoes pika's camping, so pressure is the better option, and yoshi's certainly fits that bill.
Dessy
Smash Rookie
Shhh. Don't tell anyone, but I totally have this major crush on Axe~ >//>; <3.
AXE 09
Smash Master
Oooohhhhh
Lolol
Dessy
Smash Rookie
Yeah. It's a bigtime secret. I would just DIE if he found out. Or do something like propose to him. IDUNNO EITHER WOULD DO. XD
Yeah until last night I hadn't played Smash for years. Friends from school had a tourney. I was one of the better players, but certainly not the best of the fifteen that showed. No one was pro. Very little L canceling, Wave dashing, etc. And I, in fact, did not know those existed until after the fact, when the guy who ended up getting second sat down to show me his bomb teching (which was neat to see), and I showed him some quick attack tech, like Pika's stupidly overpowered edgegrab from a decent distance from the stage. Which I didn't even attempt in the tourney, coz I was so rusty I knew I'd just kill myself if I tried. xD My left thumb hurts pretty bad today. It's all one big swollen bruise, since until then I had neglected to play any serious console game with joystick use in far too long a time. D:
But yes, where was I...Oyes Axe...
Willyoumarryme? >///< *crosses fingers*
Yeah until last night I hadn't played Smash for years. Friends from school had a tourney. I was one of the better players, but certainly not the best of the fifteen that showed.
No one was pro. Very little L canceling, Wave dashing, etc. And I, in fact, did not know those existed until after the fact, when the guy who ended up getting second sat down to show me his bomb teching (which was neat to see), and I showed him some quick attack tech, like Pika's stupidly overpowered edgegrab from a decent distance from the stage. Which I didn't even attempt in the tourney, coz I was so rusty I knew I'd just kill myself if I tried. xD My left thumb hurts pretty bad today. It's all one big swollen bruise, since until then I had neglected to play any serious console game with joystick use in far too long a time. D:But yes, where was I...Oyes Axe...
Willyoumarryme? >///< *crosses fingers*