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Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!

DerfMidWest

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Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
fair isn't very safe if your opponent is on the ground...
they can CC it and smack you.
Or shield it, and super smack you.

it can be pretty good in some situations though, I've gotten some funny gimps with ledgedrop fair.

I'm pretty sure you can falling fair->falling nair on FFers.
 

iRobinhoood

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So whens the next "big" event like Apex? Like more than one day, hotels, flights, amazingness, internationals, crew vs world, captain jack vs isaia etc. = )
 

oukd

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I suppose Smashers' Reunion (Europe) and Impulse (Canada) would count, those are during the summer.
 

soju

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So I'm at the point where I feel no improvement at all, so I'm going to rework my whole playstyle to be as technical a pikachu as humanly possible and see where that goes. Going to be legit <3
 

DerfMidWest

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SOFA#941
hey thats what I do when I get bored too :D
except with fox...
because I already can do like... all of pichu's techs pree good...
but thats k.
 

Spyro

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So I'm at the point where I feel no improvement at all, so I'm going to rework my whole playstyle to be as technical a pikachu as humanly possible and see where that goes. Going to be legit <3
Soju gunna be the Javi of Pikachu ;).
Can't wait for ledge canceled dairs/bairs and epic quick attack ledge cancels :bee:.
 

soju

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Actually I'm going to be working with the bair a little more at the moment before anything else, I'm going to see pretty much what parts of it will make pika land on the platform, since I'm pretty sure a lot of you noticed how pikachu has fallen through the stage or platforms near the edge while doing a bair. It's pretty dumb but if I notice its a fairly nice gimmick since the opponent doesn't know you can be a flying hitbox through a platform and what not.
 

DerfMidWest

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SOFA#941
I find bair really easy to ledgecancel (with pichu, anyway). Its really funny to shield pressure somebody on a platform with ledgecanceled bairs, but they can like... roll or usmash OoS...
 

soju

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It's sort of different with Pikachu, it has some weird properties where parts of his body isn't really a body and won't land on the floors. I first really started noticing it when I bair'd with Pika and saw 75% of his body inside the stage while falling down pass the edge. I am a bit curious to what i can do with that since I haven't been able to find a single practical use yet, but the falling through the ledge will definitely catch people off guard. I haven't had the chance to play yet, but from memory i'm assuming its the front half of pikachu thats wacky.
 

indigestible_wad

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This interests me. I hope you'll share your findings soju. I've gotten some interesting things to happen with bair before, I just haven't really looked into it because I've been focusing my technical research elsewhere.
 

soju

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Here's my order of plans on learning stuff with Pikachu: 1. Bair/Dair/Fair/Nair/Uair Properties 2. Perfecting QA techniques; such as ledgecancels, QA interrupts, edgeguarding. 3. Active Frames; I learn more by doing so I'm going to see what the safest option by frame on approaching shield, if there are automatic combo's, and overall (insert move) -> (insert move). 4. True Moonwalk(not the u-turn)- Because every technical person needs to have swag.

I'll post if I find anything interesting, now to go to the lab.
 

DerfMidWest

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SOFA#941
but the u-turn is so awesome and so easy.
I love looking flashy with it and being like "HAHA, ITS A MOONWALK, but its easy"
I would like to learn real moonwalking though.
 

N64

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*commenting after only watching 1st vid (Part 3)*

Jeez Axe. You play that match so well. That match (at least the first 2.5 stocks) is pretty much second-for-second a tutorial on how to do Pika vs. Samus. Man. Speechless. Awesome.

*watching other two now*

Edit: Damnnnn. Fun watch.

SECONDARY EDIT: I've decided we need a Pikachu Costume Official Tierlist. That will be the next point of discussion.
I submit the following order to start things off:
1. Blue (wizard/party hat)
2. Default (nakey)
3. Red (truckerhat/TerryBogartchu)
4. Green (leprechaun)
 

Spyro

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Hmmmmm Pika pii? Lol just a few new vids. All against Taj's Samus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4E5hnmqri8

EDIT:

Oh shoot sorry here's the other 2 lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-YhwJaODWg (First match with Pika starts at 7:14)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aldmF_8XSpY
Lol @ part 3:50 on the second video (part 1), ending was funny too (ending of part 1).

I'll proable go back and watch these again so I can understand the Pika vs Samus match up, I'll most likely get a lot of experance in that match up because IHSB is in my area.
 

indigestible_wad

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Axe, there's something I've been thinking about the way your quick attack choices. I would like to know why you use the forward to down-diagonal forward sweetspot when recovering. It just doesn't seem as safe as pikachu's other quick attack options. It seems like a nice and quick way to mix up your approach to the stage, but it is one of your main avenues back to the stage. The problem I see is that when the forward direction is the initial direction, you lose it as a final direction. The only two final options you have are diagonal in the up and down directions. Down gives you the obvious sweetspot, but on the chance that you're edgehogged, (which I see tried a lot against you, which is the point of my mentioning this) you have to go up, which gives you a ton of lag, and at the level you're playing at, the likelihood that someone chokes and doesn't react to that lag is small. You can go straight up after the initial horizontal, but the spacing required for that puts you in obvious danger as soon as you come out of the horizontal direction and has lag. There is the close to horizontal diagonals if you want to get technical, and you could space it so that you go down into the stage just behind the edge if you want to get mindgamey, but neither of those are practical. On the other hand, there is the diagonal-up and the up direction for initial quick attack, both of which have the option of stage recovery and sweetspot. They are therefore safer options if you space them so that the place between first and second quick attack is not telgraphed too close to the stage. I do see you use them, but I question why you use the initial horizontal direction so frequently.

I question this because quick attack spacing and sweetspotting were the first technical things I could do, and my use and understanding are miles ahead of the rest of my game. No disrespect meant, but when I look at your use of this specific angle of quick attack, I don't see something useful, I see something flashy and unsafe since I see it telegraphed so often in your opponents moves.

tl;dr: Why do you use the initial horizontal direction quick attack so frequently when it doesn't have a stage recovery and people expect it from you?
 

AXE 09

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^As far as I know, It's basically the quickest way to sweetspot the edge when you're pretty far out. No other angles allow you to grab the edge that quickly. My goal is basically to grab the edge before my opponent does, and if I think I can get there before he does, then I go for it, rather than dropping lower and doing the standard recovery and having to land on the stage cuz you couldn't get to the edge fast enough before your opponent grabs it. I've never even thought of this as flashiness lol. I honestly think it's very useful.

:phone:
 

N64

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Being able to recover from different locations makes your recovery pretty ambiguous. Even if the destination is clear/consistent, the timing is what's important. Waiting till you're in position to have multiple options also gives your opponent time to prepare for your recovery. I agree with axe.
 

oukd

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Great set :D I didn't know Taj had a Samus. I really liked how you use your tight stop-and-go movement at certain points, very tricky-looking.

Speaking of Samus, what do you guys think about the Pika v Samus matchup? I remember there were a bunch of Samuses at Apex, and I ended up playing a lot of them out of coincidence or something. From my first time playing tourney Samuses in friendlies...I find that Pika (comparing to my Falco) has a very easy time navigating around Samus' projectile game but has a lot of difficulty gaining momentum.

I wish someone here played Samus...playing against her takes a while but it's a lot funner than I expected.
 

N64

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Expanding on my earlier post:

Lets say you're knocked off the stage and are at the distance where you can quickattack forward -> downforward for a sweetspot. From this position you can recover in that way, or you can choose to keep falling until you're at the position where you can sweetspot with upforward->downforward, and also leave the option to upforward->forward and land on the stage. Or, you can keep falling even further until you can go upforward->forward and get the ledge (won't sweetspot, but still will grab the edge if it's open). Or you can keeeeeep falling until up->upforward will get you to the ledge or stage. If you still have your second jump, you can delay your recovery even further, or use it to get to locations you passed where there were different recovery options, or get to new locations with the slightly forward momentum. Etc.

Meanwhile, your opponent is trying to edgeguard you. The longer you wait to recover, the fewer options you leave yourself for recovery. But what you gain is potentially getting your opponent to try to edgeguard you prematurely. At which point you stall just slightly and recover to wherever's open while they're out of position.

So, lets say as you steadily fall towards the stage, you pass through points A, B, C, D, which correspond to the locations I mentioned earlier. Though point B may leave you the most options, if the opponent expects you to recover from there, then he can anticipate the timing and react accordingly. If you recover from point A, then he won't be ready yet. If you recover from point C, then he'll have done whatever he was going to do to edgeguard you when you were at point B, and now you may have a short window where you can get around him. This doesn't mean point A or point C are better than point B, it just means that occasionally using less 'safe' options is useful because it's less expected. On occasion, of course.

But also as Axe said, from that position it's the quickest way to get back, so if it looks like your opponent won't be able to get to the edge before you can recover that way anyways, might as well do it.

On the topic of Pika vs Samus:

It's a matchup you have to play a little differently than a lot of other matchups. The issue I have with it (and sometimes takes me a match to remember) is she can CC everything, and it usually looking to. This means you can't just do your shfflnair stuff all the time, and rising uair doesn't even work for a while. She can also punish you for being right above her, or trying anything on her shield. So it's this kinda weird dynamic of baiting her movements and hitting with odd aerials, or aerials at odd angles/positions, in order to rack up damage. You edgeguard her really well, and she dies early to usmash (if you can manage to land one), but the building up damage part without taking too much damage in the process is the hard part.
 

indigestible_wad

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Yeah, I certainly understand the implications of recovering quickly from point A. It just seems a lot that Axe gets the edge with just frames to spare from being edgehogged, making it seem risky to me. In terms of the technical aspect of the direction, it's no less safe than any other quick attack sweetspot. I consider myself a very safe player, so when I see something that puts you/me at risk multiple times, red flags go up.

I think you're selling point B short. The fact that pikachu has two zigs opens up infinite spacing, makes it a guessing game for the opponent to tell when pikachu will initiate quick attack, as well as what direction the second zig will go. Fox and falco use this logic to confuse whether they will use upb or sideb. It is true that when pikachu is in a certain spot, only one quick attack pattern will work for a sweetspot, but there is always another option if your reaction time is good enough with the second zig. Unless your opponent is a god at edgeguard reads, or marth, this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I also want to note that pika's sweetspot is huge and, assuming that the opponent is edgeguarding without leaving the stage, there are few characters that can reach pikachu if pikachu sweetspots as far away from the stage as possible. Now that I said that, that sentence seems somewhat situational.

Obviously the point about point A making it back the quickest trumps my argument here, but I just wanted to say that pikachu has a huge amount of options. Because of those options, a lot of times the opponent second guesses their edgeguard.


Any tips on putting samus above pikachu for the usmash kill? I have ideas, but it's always easier to say than do.
 

AXE 09

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Expanding on my earlier post:

Lets say you're knocked off the stage and are at the distance where you can quickattack forward -> downforward for a sweetspot. From this position you can recover in that way, or you can choose to keep falling until you're at the position where you can sweetspot with upforward->downforward, and also leave the option to upforward->forward and land on the stage. Or, you can keep falling even further until you can go upforward->forward and get the ledge (won't sweetspot, but still will grab the edge if it's open). Or you can keeeeeep falling until up->upforward will get you to the ledge or stage. If you still have your second jump, you can delay your recovery even further, or use it to get to locations you passed where there were different recovery options, or get to new locations with the slightly forward momentum. Etc.

Meanwhile, your opponent is trying to edgeguard you. The longer you wait to recover, the fewer options you leave yourself for recovery. But what you gain is potentially getting your opponent to try to edgeguard you prematurely. At which point you stall just slightly and recover to wherever's open while they're out of position.

So, lets say as you steadily fall towards the stage, you pass through points A, B, C, D, which correspond to the locations I mentioned earlier. Though point B may leave you the most options, if the opponent expects you to recover from there, then he can anticipate the timing and react accordingly. If you recover from point A, then he won't be ready yet. If you recover from point C, then he'll have done whatever he was going to do to edgeguard you when you were at point B, and now you may have a short window where you can get around him. This doesn't mean point A or point C are better than point B, it just means that occasionally using less 'safe' options is useful because it's less expected. On occasion, of course.

But also as Axe said, from that position it's the quickest way to get back, so if it looks like your opponent won't be able to get to the edge before you can recover that way anyways, might as well do it.
Wow amazing post on recovery. I agree 100%

:phone:

EDIT:

As far as getting Samus in a good position to Usmash for the kill... I haven't quite figured that one out lol. Against jab happy Samus players, you can shield one of the jabs, waveshield forward, CC the next jab and Usmash. And if you shield her fsmash/dsmash you can also waveshield -> Usmash punish.

Against a tilt happy Samus though, it can be really tough. Alternatively though I think most samus players eventually like to smash attack for the kill, which is where you can punish for an early Usmash/thunderflip kill.

Sometimes a running thunderjolt -> Usmash will work but that's a pretty risky approach. Sometimes it pays off though.
 

N64

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guhhh, long post got deleted :( summary version:

I agree with most of that. I'm mostly concerned with mixing things up to be less predictable. Or goin fast if its safe.

Getting usmash on samus will probably come from catching her trying to get out of shield, or trying to dash away from you. If you can get in close enough and threaten her into her shield, there's not much she can do from there except jump or wd back. If you can guess the timing right, you can usmash both of these options right as she jumps.

Your other opportunities will probably be to usmash through a jab or close ftilt. Really, it's just kinda hard to get Samus to stay in the air for very long when you're anywhere near her. And you can't really get her into the air yourself that easily because she'll CC everything. You can grab->uthrow I guess and then try to beat whatever she comes down with, but for the grab you'd have to get in close enough where upB OoS can hit, and getting in that close anyways just sets up the usmash situation in the last paragraph. You generally have to just beat her options on the ground with usmash if you're looking to hit with it.
 

soju

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Axe, how do you personally deal with IC's? Last IC's I went against was Fly and I got merc'd as soon as I got grabbed. I'm asking specifically you because I assume you have quite a bit of experience with Wobbles, or I could be wrong.
 

AXE 09

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^Honestly I don't have all that much experience against Wobbles, and the experience that I do have against him with Pika is pretty much me losing :( My spacies do better against him most of the time I think. I just hate that Popo chaingrab on Pika, where he can just chaingrab until Nana gets back. So devastating.
 

soju

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Darn, I was hoping on some better insight since there isn't really any IC's in my area, guess it's back to the lab :B
 

indigestible_wad

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My experience in the matchup is to stay away. I've played against two ice climber mains, one that was super technical but not a very great player and one that was less technical but a better player. I was way more scared of the technical player than the better player because he could zero to death me so well, but he wasn't very experienced so I won most of the time.

Anyway I have a pretty campy playstyle that somewhat leans me in a better direction than if I was overly aggressive or even defensive. I group campy away from defensive because I think of defensive more as blocking and taking hits head on while campy is more hit and run. When you do get a hit though you have to keep up the pressure or else YOU WILL GET GRABBED. I would suggest a lot of sh nairs where you hit them at the height of your jump rather than at the ends. This should be a pretty basic and unconscious strategy when you're fighting other characters because of grabs and close range dangers. With ice climbers this danger is increased one hundred fold because they are looking for every chance to grab, and with two characters to grab (and shield) with, the number of frames they can grab you is much larger than that of another character thanks to the lag they have between each other and the lag you get when you hit more than one thing. So don't be near them when you land.

Separating them is apparently accepted as the best strategy. I say it that way not because I don't agree with it, I just don't think it's the easiest thing in the world. There's no one way to do this, and anything on paper is not going to work every time in the heat of a battle. I like jolt because it will separate the two if they are on the move, which they should be if I'm camping well enough. I also like jolt because I'm camping, obviously. Knocking them off the edge is always good. If they come back with upb you've got separation and if they come back with sideb, upsmash is usually the best idea since an ice climber should be reading your edgeguards and fsmash only comes out in one direction from your body. There's multiple ways to separate them though, just get creative. Once they're separated nana should be your priority in most situations. Uair is good because nana doesn't have crazy DI and it keeps her where you know she'll be with lots of hitstun. But basically just treat her like sandbag. She's not going to do much when you're hitting her.

Everything else should be self explanatory. Play them like other low weight characters, just with a respect for distance and multiplicity. SoPo should be played like mario I think.


Soju I'd suggest playing more ice climbers if you can. It's best to just get a feel for it yourself. When you get the chance play Fly as much as you can to get experience. It seems like you don't have the ability to do that on a regular basis though. The thing about the ice climbers matchup is that if you don't play it in a while, you totally forget how to play it and it takes a while to get back into the swing of things. It's really a unique matchup. And to be fair, I haven't played against the ice climbers in a while, and a lot of the stuff I said is theoretical mixed with my experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
 

stingers

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I do play melee pika a tad, I've only used him in tourney once or twice but I use him in friendlies a lot.
i didnt know you played melee at all saph o.O or smash really XD
 

Sapphire Dragon

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XD XD :laugh:

I mean, the whole reason I managed to find SWF is because I went to a tourney at an anime convention out of curiosity (I've played Melee since I was ~8 or 10) and someone told me about SWF. I've mained Pika literally my whole life. XD Just never got competitive with it until now, but yeah. :pikachu: = :ibwc:

That's awesome that you play some Melee Pika though. Pro type.
 

soju

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So I randomly found a pokemon trading card pack in my room which I assumed was a christmas present from my grandma or something that I never got to, opened it today, found a pikachu, Feels Good.

He's lvl 17 and knows Pika Ball and Mega Shot which I assume is a nair and Side-B, I named him Captain Chu-ster.
 
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