Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Thread, READ BEFORE MAKING NEW THREADS!

[JCav]

no c stick down>A button and up (at the same time for a button and up)

 

[Healer]

Ftilt is bad, if they shield it you're stuck in animation for 20 frames. Its okay sometimes though .

Spacing is attacking and deliberately creating space between you and opponent so they are unable/have a hard time punishing you.

CG with wolf? Really? Unless if you dthrow them onto a banana/against a wall, I have no idea.


MY QUESTION:
HOW THE EFF DO YOU DO A DASH ATTACK WITH A BANANA IN YOUR HAND. I"ve been trying to DACIT and i have no clue, anyone wanna explain?

So stuff like retreating fair is spacing?
What are some good ways of spacing?

 

[rvkevin]

So stuff like retreating fair is spacing?
What are some good ways of spacing?

Spacing is doing a move that is not punishable or is very hard to punish. Retreating Fairs have a large disjointed hit box that prevents the opponent to get close...Bairs on shield, zoning with Bairs, Blaster in certain situations, Ftilt where only the second hit connects, etc. Different opponents need different levels of spacing.

 

[Healer]

do u know of any guides that i can read about spacing? I would really love to learn.

 

[SelfPossessed]

We had a zoning guide, which just died off after a while. Still, it might help a little. Read the first post and the two thread links in it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229568&highlight=zone

Be warned, The Wolf vs MetaKnight zone isn't accurate. I've been watching how the better Wolf players play against MetaKnight, and they like to stay within his tilt zone trying to punish his attacks. I still haven't figured out how to play against MK.

 

[Arrows]

SP, I've learned to DACIT, cept I always toss it up. Occasionally I can do it horizontally, but I have NO CLUE how I did that. Help please?

Healer, go wolf ditto someone. Gull has good spacing, so does Arc. Ditto one of them.

Go to chat more:
http://xat.com/thespaceanimals


ANOTHER QUESTION:

Is it possible to FLASH lock someone?

eg, VERY SHORT flash cancel, they take 3 damage, do it opposite direction, they take 3, repeat.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Err, don't have ask me directly. I'm one of the worst players on the boards. I just type a lot.

DACIT:

Use diagonals to DACIT forward/backward. For example, to throw the item forward, do Dash Attack (analog stick forward, Cstick down), then slide the analog stick to the up AND towards position, and A/Z. If you have tap jump off and a good analog stick (mine is too shaky for this), you can do the dash attack with the analog stick up and towards, which allows you to skip sliding the analog stick.

Spacing and Zoning:

Quick tips on spacing Bairs.

• Make sure that you are fast falling away from the opponent when you land tipper Bair (the very edge of your hitbox) on their shield. Wolf will slide a tiny bit away from the opponent after landing, making him very safe.
• Keep your Bair semi fresh. The fresher it is, the more shield knockback it has, the safer it is on shield. Stale Bairs do combo better though, so it's a tradeoff. Note that landing a Bair on a shield does not stale the Bair.

Also note that zoning is directly related to spacing, but it isn't exactly the same thing. Read the links I posted before for more information.

I disagree on spacing for the Wolf ditto. Dittos are funny in that when you're horizontally zoning well, technically the opponent is also horizontally zoning well. Furthermore, Wolf's OoS game isn't anything amazing, so you have a lot of leeway with spacing in dittos. You're better off practicing against a Snake or D3, continually keeping yourself in the zone around your max Fsmash range, and spacing Bairs on their shield so that you don't get punished by their respective shieldgrab or Ftilt.

It's a big generalization (which doesn't work for many specific matchups), but Wolf's preferred zone (where he likes to be) tends to be between the opponent's primary attack range (example: with Snake, it's just outside his Ftilt range) and Wolf's tipper Fsmash distance when on the ground (outside of Fsmash range means you can't pressure well). Wolf can then leap forward and attack such that when he lands with an autocanceled aerial like Bair, he lands outside of his opponent's attack range (or behind them as a mixup, which is riskier but provides many options). Again, this DOES NOT WORK in every matchup.

Also, jumpshine helps so much for zoning as it helps you escape your bad zones. I love jumpshine.

Flash Lock Thing:

I also highly doubt the flash lock thing. Wolf has way too much lag after the cancel. The slide he does after a cancel makes it hard to punish him, but he's still unable to perform any actions before the opponent can.

 

[Arrows]

Thanks SP. Cept JJ beat you to it

cast0rp0llux (16:21:04): start the
cast0rp0llux (16:21:05): joy stick
cast0rp0llux (16:21:07): diagonally down
Wolf2557 (16:21:13): mhmm
cast0rp0llux (16:21:21): so u should be starting the run that way
cast0rp0llux (16:21:23): then when it ends
cast0rp0llux (16:21:26): it should be horizontal

I disagree when you say wolfs OoS isn't anything amazing. Well it's not amazing, but its above average. Nair, retreating fair and jumpshine are all pretty good in my opinion.

 

[SelfPossessed]

It doesn't provide the same pressure as D3's shieldgrab or Snake's Ftilt or Marth's Side B/up B or Diddy when he has a naner in hand. Those shields are scary as hell.

 

[ArcPoint]

Why does Wolf have a preferred zone? What happens if I like, and do better, when I'm closer to my opponent? Such is often the case for me because I'm decent at reading people and covering the best options in a scenario, but I suck with varying the timing of attacks and am prone to committing to things when I try to "zone." Hence, why I never consciously do it.

What does Wolf get out of being outside of Snake's ftilt range but being inside of his Fsmash? Ftilt, jab, Utilt, Dtilt still completely beat out Wolf's only offensive option at that range. Shield also beats Fsmash, as does spotdodge (depending on the timing). The only option Fsmash covers is jump (relatively strict timing before opponent's aerials come out) and dashing. And in order to cover these options, you have to be on the ground... where you can't abuse Wolf's air speed, his giant hitboxes and lagless moves.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Arc >>> Me. This has to be said as Arc has much more experience against much better players. But as a theorycrafting noob, I'm going to pointlessly argue anyways.

If you're better closer up, you're probably better at other characters with stronger close ranged based games. Wolf's specialty isn't here.

Being outside of Snake's Ftilt range allows you to actually get into the air without eating 21 damage. Jumping take 6 frames to leave the ground (Gheb says so). Bair takes 6 frames to come out. That's 12 frames for a rising Bair, 13 for a rising Fair. Snake's Ftilt is 4 frames.

Being inside Fsmash range is approximately the range you can still safely Bair his shield from. I use it as a rule of thumb. You can also still FH Bair FF AD behind him from that range as well (mad airspeed), provided that he does not predict it and move away.

 

[ArcPoint]

I was hoping you'd argue the theorycraft stuff, because that's what I was inquiring about =P

What characterizes a "specialty"? The abundance of options? Cuz Wolf's pretty decent at close range. He has a shield, and pretty good out of shield options. And by good I mean huge hitboxes that come out in about 10-14 frames (Usmash, Fair, Bair). He can jump out, which is a good option due to his aerial prowess. Decent rolls, decent spotdodge. And when he isn't in a shield, he has a Fsmash that trips, jab in 4 frames, grab which is a good option for him, he can jump, and he can SHINE <3 Which has 9 frames of invincibility and a hitbox. He has decent options at close range, I say. Is it a particular strength of his? Of course not, but it's more than enough to get by on.

And only the first, relatively small hitbox of ftilt comes out in 4, I say relatively because when compared to the second hit, it's small, haha. The one that has the ridiculous range comes out in... I have no idea xD. Regardless, it's definitely possible to jump within Snake's ftilt range and not eat 21%. Why? Because Snake can't have those ftilt hitboxes out every second of the game. They key is to make him second-guess Ftilting, be that by punishing it, or for his fear of committing to something, whatever. That opens up your options a bit more. Same concept applies to the general cast as well.

And as for Fsmash range being same as a safe bair...not quite, the tip of Fsmash extends a bit farther out. Plus in order to be a safe bair you have to either have neutral acceleration, or be accelerating away from your opponent. Moving towards them is a gamble =)

 

[SelfPossessed]

Specialty:

Specialty can be many things. It depends on how you want to look at it.

Wolf's OoS doesn't deal nearly enough damage when compared to chaingrabs (D3 and Falco), tilt locks (Sheik Ftilt and some other character's Utilts), and other combos (Snake Ftilt Marth Side B and Diddy's ridiculous naner). Wolf doesn't have an invincible up B OoS either (Marth upB). His most damaging option, Usmash, can be SDIed by knowledgable opponents. Fair only deals decent damage at a really specific percent, DI not factored in (when you can combo with Utilt). Bair damage is mediocre. His most used option is actually shieldgrab (fastest option), whose range is 3rd worst in the game (tied with Ice Climbers!), whose pummel doesn't refresh unless timed, no CG, no guaranteed air release, and options after throw aren't that amazing (compare it to Snake's Dthrow techchase). Wolf's OoS is all around mediocre.

Now take his other defensive options. His shield is ok; since he isn't a round ball, he's somewhat more vulnerable to poking. His spotdodge has the typical 5 frames of vulnerability. Compare that to Falco's 2 frames of vulnerability (which means 50% of the time it can avoid Wolf's continuous jabs) and D3's wierd Z axis movement during his spotdodge (allows him to powershield after spotdodges randomly). His options out of spotdodge are again mediocre in damage and setups (check OoS options). Wolf's roll again is at the bottom of the spectrum in terms of speed and vulnerability; nothing amazing, and rarely used. Not that rolling is a major part of brawl, but check MK's roll speed and gape at the difference. Shine is weird. It may have nice invincibility, but unless you jumpshine it, predicting wrong will get you hurt. You guess right, you get 3 damage and some frame advantage (if buffered Dtilt is in range and you're facing the opponent, then the reward is nicer). You guess wrong, you eat 20+ damage, maybe even 80+ if the opponent is CG inclined. The risk reward is skewed. Wolf's defensive game is sub par.

Jumpshine is special and deserves its own paragraph. It's a get out of jail free card at close range. There are 6 frames of vulnerability at the start (to jump off the ground), but the invincibility afterwards is ridiculously useful. Anything that can punish jumpshine (assuming you have 6 frames of leeway for the invinc to kick in) will lose to shield, spotdodge, or a normal attack. It's definitely amazing, but the goal of jumpshine is to get OUT of close range, not to stay in. It's a free jump -> aerial dominance.

Then look at his basic offensive options. He lacks an amazing fast scary move to pressure opponents with. Falco's jab is 2 frames (twice as fast as ours) and BEATS SHIELDGRAB. Snake's jab sets up into a massive Ftilt combo. MK has 3 frame moves at close range, and his are stupidly safe on shield with absurd priority (laser sword). Wolf's jab is 4 frames, mediocre priority (too much stuff clanks), mediocre jab cancels (not as much frame advantage out of it and our rewards are lower with limited grab options), and not safe on shield. I do not consider Fsmash a close ranged move. Then take aerials. The best close range aerial characters have attacks that are 3-4 frames and preferably disjointed (there are way too many to list). Wolf's Bair and Fair, his primary offense, come out in 6-7 frames. Only his Nair has any chance in speed, but it isn't disjointed. Now if Nair proves to be an amazing move (several Wolf players are experimenting with it), then Wolf may actually have a decent chance at close range. Overall though, Wolf is out-disjointed, out-speeded, and out-damaged in terms of offense.

Yes, Wolf can still fight at close range. He isn't stuck with hopeless stuff like a bad tether grab or Ganon level grab range. Actually, there are times you SHOULD fight at close range (dash shield ftw), if only to be less predictable. However, sticking to close range as a primary part of your strategy against an equally or better skilled opponent (and character choice) is asking to get beaten. Less damage. Less speed. Less priority. Easier to punish defensive options. And, above that, is Wolf's inexplicable ability to being ***** by nearly everything "gay" that Brawl has to offer (exception is grab releases). Staying away from close range means avoiding those **** moves.

Zoning:

I suppose I wasn't clear on this. When I said out of range of Snake's Ftilt, I meant the first hit. If he tries the second hit of Ftilt anyways, you have enough time to jumpshine out of there (the safe option). You might even be able to shield the second part and Fsmash (the riskier but more rewarding option).

I know about the acceleration part; I mentioned it in an earlier post on this page. I found that around tip Fsmash range that I could land a safe Bair while retreating. I think this is because the opponents I've played tend to like moving towards me (or away if they're projectile users) instead of sitting in shield waiting to eat Bair. I got used to opponents trying to screw up my spacing, especially with dash or walk shield. If they really refuse to move, I can follow the FH Bair with a retreating turnaround Blaster to motivate them. That or FF AD behind fun. I'd rather come up short with the Bair (harder to punish, is a means of baiting by itself - opens up mindgames of making them whiff attacks for you to punish, and you can mess with FF and no FF timings) than jump into the ****.

Again though, the between Fsmash and their primary attack range zone is a general guideline. It doesn't even work in all matchups, but it's a starting point. Most Wolf players have a feel for Fsmash range, so it's a good example to let them know about how far to stay from the opponent. Otherwise, what am I supposed to tell them? Be EXACTLY right outside their range? 1 pixel away? 1cm away? 1inch? A reference point is needed and Fsmash range provides that. I could mention character length, but most players don't have a good feel for their horizontal hurtboxes due to how it changes when they attack. On the plus side, if the opponent does anything stupid at that range, you can Fsmash them in the face.

 

[castorpollux]

sp wins 10chars

 

[ArcPoint]

Instead of comparing Wolf to the moveset of the entire game, let's compare them to individual characters. Metaknight: His fair, bair, Uair, Dair, Shuttle loop do NOTHING in terms of damage, his Fair and Bair can be SDIed out of as well, and nothing after that is guaranteed. Wolf exceeds Metaknight in terms of damage for his OoS options. Does MK have a tilt lock? No, Chaingrab? No. His ftilt/Dtilt from the shield are 9-10 frames. Is this particularly amazing? Metaknight doesn't have the tip-top OoS game either. Diddy? His Fair and Bair do as much damage as Wolf's, his Usmash OoS can be SDIed out of too, and doesn't have nearly as large of a hitbox. And when he has a banana in hand he can't do anything else but throw it (Except specials). DDD? Fair OoS is out of the question, bair has a big hitbox but mediocre damage, tilts OoS are bad. His only strength is the grab, where he doesn't have a chaingrab on everyone, and he only manages to get 30% for everyone he can chaingrab, except for the people who have a ledge infinite, then it's an instant stock.
Some of these high end characters have even more limited than Wolf's OoS. Wolf has more options, are all of them good? They're decent. 13%, 11% 15% (Dthrow), 6% (Usmash assuming everyone can SDI perfectly). If kill percent is 135-140. Only takes 11 bairs, 13 Fairs, 9 or 8 Dthrows. His damage is on the high end of the average, the fact that he can hit with them due to huge hitboxes is a plus, the speed is iffy, but it gets done because there's still landing lag for aerials/lag for other moves. Wolf's OoS game isn't the best, but it is not mediocre. I say it's above average due to the number of decent options. Others are more limited in the number. The "Strength" I would say in his OoS game is the huge hitboxes of Fair and Bair, and Usmash.

Also, setups are pretty good. JUST because they're not top tier doesn't mean they're mediocre. Metaknight doesn't have Snake's Dthrow tech chase either. Does this make his throw setups mediocre too? Wolf has pretty good setups on Fair (pops them up) bair ( Bair -> Fsmash anyone?) and Dthrow (Pretty much)

Haha I love that, "predict wrong and you get hurt" That's usually how it is with any move associated with risk, imagine that. And just because his spotdodge isn't top tier doesn't mean it's sup bar, his options from spotdodge and defensive options are more than enough to get him by. His damage is by and large not mediocre. Also, don't give me that 80% crap, if you're talking about a chaingrab, DDD's, Falco's, IC's. Then it's a stock, or 30% (DDD's across the stage) If you get into, as Wolf, Falco's chaingrab, it's a stock, IC's, it's a stock, DDD with the ledge infinite, it's a stock. Does this skew risk vs reward? Absolutely, that's why these are disadvantaged for Wolf. Does it mean ICs, DDD, and Falco have the best OoS games in the entire game? Or does this make it so that Wolf's is mediocre? I'd say no.

Jumpshine is a great option. A get out of jail free card? Can be, but abuse it, like anything, and people will read you on it, and punish you for it. Plain and simple. Harder to punish than a grounded shine, but you will get punished for it if you do it predictably.

Scary move to pressure shields with? If I'm on the ground, the move I use to pressure shields is grab. Is it particularly fast? Eh, dashgrab's kinda slow. But unless they have a 2 frame attack out of shield it'll just take the hit and I still get a grab. And not too many people have that, the ones that do (go figure) are bad matchups for Wolf haha.

Wolf is NOT out-disjointed, he may have equal priority with jab, which isn't OUT disjointed, but his Fair, Bair are amazing in terms of priority. He is only outspeeded by top tier, and he is NOT outdamaged by anyone by a fair margin except for a few top tiers (Falco, DDD, ICs come to mind). Wolf isn't top tier, but just because he isn't doesn't mean he's automatically mediocre. And Snake out-damages and out-disjoints everyone, why isn't HE the best character in the game?

Heh, my goal never has been to stay close to opponent, it just happens. Am I there all the time? Course not. Do I never stay at a longer distance away? Course not. And even playing with an equally skilled or better, or even sometimes slightly worse opponent means, usually, that I'm going to lose based on the sole fact that I play Wolf. No one concept, zone, string of moves, or anything except game options should be a staple in your strategy. Wolf isn't top tier.

Yeah, Fsmash is a great reference point that people are familiar. I was just wondering the advantage of being in that situation where you're within Fsmash range but outside of Snake's first Ftilt range.

Edit: This is the first wall of text I've had in a while.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sp won in wall of text length. Good luck next time Arcy.

 

[SelfPossessed]

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING. FIND COVER IMMEDIATELY.

Close Range Defense:

Comparing OoS Options:

MetaKnight is a ball, so his shield holds up better. MetaKnight's grab range is way bigger. MetaKnight's setups after down throw are better (he out-prioritizes opponent attacks and he's arguably the best at punishing airdodges). MetaKnight's damage may not be as high (though his Nair OoS can significantly outdamage Wolf if it double hits), but he is known for being able to punish a stupid number of stuff OoS due to speed and range. Tornado OoS shuts down rising aerials like Marth's Fair wall due to sheer horizontal speed and priority. Up B OoS has invincibility frames on 5+ and moves at an angle that allows him to punish stuff other characters can't, like Peach's Dair. Furthermore, MetaKnight kills way better OoS (Dsmash is 5 frames), and even if it doesn't, it sets up his gimping game well.

Diddy's OoS with a naner in hand = naner combos = massive damage. More importantly, a naner in hand allows him to punish all sorts of stuff OoS because throwing has a ton of range AND it does not have shield drop lag. If he doesn't have a naner in hand, then his OoS isn't as scary.

D3 has shieldgrab, which has stupid broken range. For those he can't chaingrab, he has a crazy Dthrow techchase and his Bthrow does around 16% by itself. That's honestly all he needs OoS. Bair OoS is for opponents who land behind him, which comes out crazy fast.

Unlike the three listed above, Wolf has difficulty punishing certain safer moves. That isn't even mentioning other characters like Snake (Dthrow techchase and Ftilt range + damage), Falco (CG) and Marth (Side B range + damage + refresh, up B invincibility). Assuming SDI on Usmash, the only big hitbox moves he has are Fair and Bair, which come out too slow to punish a lot of stuff (every frame matters) and don't deal impressive damage. As I stated before, I find shieldgrab to be his most valuable punish option OoS (faster, more damage, refreshes, just crappy range and meh setups).

Setups OoS:

Setup wise, if you aren't top tier, you're mediocre. You're either good or you're not. I'd argue that MetaKnight's throw setups are better as well (out-prioritizes attempts to interrupt his chase and he's arguably the best at punishing airdodges).

Wolf's Fair is definitely a good setup at low to mid percents, but it's his slowest option of the three. Bair to Fsmash doesn't combo on rising Bair, though at really really low percents it can lead to dash shield mixups. Dthrow...is weird. At low percents, you have frame disadvantage. At higher percents, it sends them too far to do anything to them. At the mid percents that it does work at, it's decent, but it's no where near the level of Snake or D3's techchase abilities as opponents can instant techroll it in addition to their normal options.

Grounded Shine:

The predict wrong thing is about risk/reward. I can predict a D3 correctly 3 times, but he only needs 1 prediction to do the same amount of damage. Grounded Shine is high risk low reward (3 damage yay), not something I'd rely on. The 80ish damage was in reference to you doing a grounded shine and failing against a Pikachu who knows how to buffer CGs. You guess right, you get 3%. You guess wrong, you take 80%. It's an extreme example of course, but I wanted to emphasize how much risk you possibly take with grounded shine.

Spotdodge:

Wolf's spotdodge is way easier to punish and is harder to punish from (lasts longer, no weird Z axis powershielding stuff). He doesn't have anything stupid fast out of spotdodge (fastest move is 4 frames). His damage IS mediocre because it isn't top tier. Perhaps it's better instead to list whose OoS and post spotdodge options that Wolf's are equal to or better than and note where those characters are on the tier list.

Jumpshine:

For jumpshine being predictable, I already mentioned that anything that can punish it is beaten by nearly every other option Wolf could take. The opponent has to seriously commit to stop jumpshine. That and since Wolf is in the air, chances are that their punishment won't be a stupidly damaging tilt lock/CG/other gay stuff.​

Close Range Offense:

Close Range Shield Pressure:

Grab for shield pressure... If Wolf had an average grab, he's STILL Be mediocre up close (because he'd be average then). Wolf, however, has a crap grab range (equal to Ice Climbers, whose grab range is regarded as one of their biggest disadvantages) and his dash grab is laughably slow. Now factor in how Wolf tends to get ***** by gay stuff more than others. When Wolf whiffs a grab, he gets hurt far more than his opponents would in the same situation. The end result is that Wolf's close range shield pressure is not even mediocre, it's just bad, though not tether/Ganon bad.

Priority:

I only mentioned priority with Jab. It's a ground move that isn't MetaKnight's, so being disjoint doesn't matter as it'll clank or just be outright beaten instead. It's also slow (every frame counts up close), so it doesn't interrupt that well.

I never mentioned disjoint with Fair or Bair. I mentioned speed (which is a factor in aerial priority). Close ranged aerial characters need attacks that are 3-4 frames, not 6-7 frames. It's not just the top tiers that have this; even mid tiers have it.

Nair, Wolf's only decent speed up close aerial, is not disjointed enough to compete. However, it's flinch hits does have potential, hence why I left it open as a maybe and not to be factored in before proof of its effectiveness.

Damage:

I'm just repeating myself, but if you don't have top tier damage, you have mediocre or crap damage. Wolf is mediocre here.​

Conclusion:

As for why Snake isn't the best in the game, that's a completely separate topic that I won't touch. I'm only mentioning that the top tiers that like to stay close range have the tools (speed, range, disjoint, damage) that make them good at that range. Hence, if you like to stay close range, unless you found something super innovative with Wolf that no one else knows, you're probably playing the wrong character. Seeing as how you don't actually plan to stay close range as a part of your strategy, this is a non issue.

Just in case, note that I do claim that the zone is the same for every matchup. It's only a broad generalization, which fails in quite a few matchups.

As for losing just because you play Wolf, that's highly possible. However, as a Wolf main, it doesn't stop you from trying to improve Wolf and bring him to his maximum potential. I'd argue that zoning is a game option and should be a major focus of your strategy to achieve this goal. Analysis of risk/reward for various strategies should be as well, especially considering the weaknesses (getting gayed) that Wolf has to deal with.​

 

[Blargy]

I need help on playing my brother he mains ICs (gay D and i cant do anything to him all he does is PS my blasters and pivot grabs me out of everything and i get 0 - deaths every time

soooo either i just suck against him or he knows my playing style way to much either way i need help

so how can i approach / handle him?

(yes he knows all the tricks to ICs and prob the best in kansas >.>)

 

[Seagull Joe]

I need help on playing my brother he mains ICs (gay D and i cant do anything to him all he does is PS my blasters and pivot grabs me out of everything and i get 0 - deaths every time

soooo either i just suck against him or he knows my playing style way to much either way i need help

so how can i approach / handle him?

(yes he knows all the tricks to ICs and prob the best in kansas >.>)

Camp from a distance lasers and full hop lasers. Jumpshine beats ic's blizzard wall with ease. Plank with full hop laser. Space bairs to seperate and then beat the **** outta nana or popo. Shine gimp works nicely also.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Is there a trick to Autocanceling Fairs? Like, how is it done?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Is there a trick to Autocanceling Fairs? Like, how is it done?

Just do it quickly. I prefer to roll my thumb over jump to A with analog facing forward.

 

[Arrows]

Basically, do it consecutively, and it should work. It's not very hard, if you need to spend like 3 minutes on training doing it.

 

[Dv8tor]

Alright guys I am actually posting something! Anyway I have a question on Wolf in doubles matches. In my state there is a tournament with 2v2 matches and I need to know what the best strategies for team play is. Like should I forget blaster or should I play more aggressive, you know things like that. If it helps I am pairing with a Lucas/Wario player, which charcter is better to pair with, does Wolf have combos with either one, and how best should I approach team work strategies with either character?

Thanks in advance for the help and something like SP's wall of text might help, I like the in depth talk.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

You should have taken this to my dead, dead, dead doubles thread. It might have sparked discussion there. haha

Remember in doubles that you need to know your partner more than your enemies. Knowing his moves can help the two of you follow up on each other's attacks. For example, your teammate knowing how your dthrow works can help him follow up with his own dsmash or what not.

Also remember that you're throwing your enemy in your partners direction. This makes this easier to follow up.

In fact, going to my doubles thread might make this easier. I think I'm going to redesign if so it's less of a boring dead thread.

 

[rvkevin]

Wolf is pretty bad in doubles...The best strategy is probably to pick the stage with the biggest base and separate the battle into two one on ones. Bair walls help a lot here. Its also great if your partner has a match up weakness, since you can wall out a certain opponent. Its essential that your partner covers your back since he's quite vulnerable in doubles. Wolf also can't really help his partner offstage. You might want to consider a secondary if you happen to play a MK or double MK team.

Wario is way better than Lucas...and his aerial movement should help in combos.

 

[Ishiey]

In my opinion, lots of bair, fair, jumpshine, and smashes. Blaster will get you punished unless you're really far away from everyone, which isn't where I feel Wolf excels in doubles, so I guess that's a personal thing.

In my opinion, you basically want to have gigantic hitboxes flying around and screaming gtfo to the other team, and jumpshine as a more defensive gtfo option. For grabs, fthrow is the fastest, so go with that if your opponent's partner is too close for comfort.

Turtle, why do you say Wolf is bad at doubles? He can cover a lot of room in the air and on the ground with great range and large hitboxes, that's always seemed helpful to me in doubles.

 

[rvkevin]

His KO power is sub par even when fresh, which I doubt they will be, none of his moves kill below 120 with reasonable DI. Unlike Snake, Wario, and GnW, while MK relies on low percentage kills via gimping.

When Wolf gets hit, he becomes a sponge for damage. And the potential of getting gimped precludes from being a stock tank. Also, Most of his attacks are very punishable by the opponent's partner, even if you punish someone with a Fsmash, it doesn't help your team if you get the same percentage back...Which is why I said it is essential for Wolf's partner to cover his back because when he Bairs, he is vulnerable on his front side.

As far as teamwork goes, he does a decent job at 2v1 combos. But Wolfs offstage ability limits his effectiveness of helping his partner offstage and his own recovery is hard to help...

I can name a number of characters that I would rather team with than a Wolf: MK, Snake, Wario, GnW, Kirby, and then if I didn't use Diddy, I'd extend it to Rob, Diddy, and maybe Marth and DDD. Considering most of the better teams will consist of one or more of the above, Wolf doesn't have any inherent advantage over them. He may not be "bad" in doubles, but he's not good, he's somewhere in the middle, which means it may be worth experimenting using a secondary for doubles...

 

[Ishiey]

Okay, I tried to form a coherent response >_> I'm not too good with this stuff, but let's see how it goes.

His KO power is sub par even when fresh, which I doubt they will be, none of his moves kill below 120 with reasonable DI. Unlike Snake, Wario, and GnW, while MK relies on low percentage kills via gimping.

True, Wolf doesn't have the best KO power. However, it's doubles, you don't HAVE to get all the kills. Wolf is better at killing than a decent amount of characters, and he definitely makes up for this with other things (setups, taking advantage of setups, damage racking, just to name a few), but I'll avoid going in depth now. Basically, this is not such a huge downfall (imo) so long as your partner has good KO potential. Gimping-wise, I find that Wolf isn't too shabby. Shine gimps can work on a LOT of characters, and since it's so much easier to get an opponent offstage in doubles Wolf can at least rack up some solid damage with bair.

When Wolf gets hit, he becomes a sponge for damage. And the potential of getting gimped precludes from being a stock tank. Also, Most of his attacks are very punishable by the opponent's partner, even if you punish someone with a Fsmash, it doesn't help your team if you get the same percentage back...Which is why I said it is essential for Wolf's partner to cover his back because when he Bairs, he is vulnerable on his front side.

I don't see how Wolf is much more of a sponge than other characters in doubles. He can get out of many "combos" with shine, doesn't have any particularly horrendous dodges or blind spots that the opponent can take advantage of, and of course you have your teammate to (hopefully) bail you out of any bad situations. Chaingrabs and whatnot are in general less of a factor in doubles, unless it's 1vs2. The thing about punishable moves, then just don't use them when your opponent's partner can punish you. Wolf has bair, which is honestly a huge asset by itself because of speed, range/hitbox, and how safe it is, all combined with Wolf's excellent airspeed. If the opponent takes to the air, you will dominate them, especially horizontally.
If you're worried about being vulnerable when bairing, don't bair, simple as that. Unless your partner is in a highly disadvantageous situation, your opponent shouldn't punish you from the front unless you make a sizable mistake. If it is that kind of a situation, you can try to airdodge to safety, or shine, or double jump away, it's not as if bair is your only option.

As far as teamwork goes, he does a decent job at 2v1 combos. But Wolfs offstage ability limits his effectiveness of helping his partner offstage and his own recovery is hard to help...

Idk, I might be lacking in enough teams experience to say this, but gimping doesn't seem to be as big of an issue in doubles as it can be in singles. You have your partner there to assist you sometimes, or the opponent might decide to team up on your partner instead of go for a possibly risky gimp. And while Wolf has a fairly gimpable recovery, it's not quite to the extent where you get hit offstage and die instantly... but you're definitely correct about recovery, unless he uses upB and MK gets caught in it and uairs out or something. Not the easiest to help out.

I can name a number of characters that I would rather team with than a Wolf: MK, Snake, Wario, GnW, Kirby, and then if I didn't use Diddy, I'd extend it to Rob, Diddy, and maybe Marth and DDD. Considering most of the better teams will consist of one or more of the above, Wolf doesn't have any inherent advantage over them. He may not be "bad" in doubles, but he's not good, he's somewhere in the middle, which means it may be worth experimenting using a secondary for doubles...

I can't really blame you, those are all solid team characters (particularly the first section) that have proven their ability countless times in teams matches. The only good player I've seen use Wolf in doubles in tournament is Tedeth, who actually did quite well. But I'll stop myself before I get off-topic: There are few good Wolf mains, fewer that regularly use him in tournaments, and even fewer than that use him in doubles. We haven't fully seen what Wolf can do at top levels in doubles. His only potential "downfalls" are getting gimped and killing, but his great damage output and aerial control (primarily from bair) are imo more than enough to make up for it, assuming he has the right partner (ex. Snake/Wario, high survivability and good kill power).


I have a feeling this came out really badly, but I'm going to post it anyways

 

[Dv8tor]

Oh my god, Ish wasn't lazy! Thanks for the help non-lazy Ish!

So you would recommend Wario instead of Lucas to team with? I prefer either one, I just don't know which is more advantageous for the team.

I find the huge range of damage Wolf can put out makes him a very viable partner, I mean he is able to hit anywhere in front and above himself easily, he doesn't seem like a bad choice to me. Either way I am not going to consider changing as Wolf is my best and I am nowhere near up to the skill level with any other character as I am with Wolf. So don't suggest other characters, this is strictly Wolf team play, thanks!

 

[rvkevin]

Shine gimps are much more risky in doubles…If someone grabs the ledge when you out shining, you die. Using shine to break combos is somewhat haphazard. It makes you a sitting duck because of the lag. Basically when Wolf is Bairing an opponent, his partner should sandwich Wolf and then Wolf is becomes a pinball between the opponents. Wolf’s Bair makes him vulnerable in front of him and on smaller stages, the opponent’s partner will be closer to help out if need be. Sure this works when the layout is _O_W_P_O_ (Opponent, Wolf, Partner), but in any other situation, Wolfs not that good. It’s so easy to double team Wolf since so many of his moves have a lot of lag. Wolf does fine on FD, since there’s lots of space, but on the smaller stages, everything becomes more cramped for Wolf and his offstage game come play more…Also, Wolf’s aerial control gets disturbed by MK, Wario, and GnWs, so I don’t think it makes up for his shortcomings.

 

[castorpollux]

turtles biased because I suck at doubles

 

[rvkevin]

Either that or its because I always go after you when covering the other guy...

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Hm...

I think people are looking at this the wrong way... It's like, if you're using Wolf, there's no hope because he's not good in teams. That's the completely wrong way to look at it. Just because a character isn't God like MK, Gnw or whoever in teams does not mean the team sucks. Sorry I disagree with all of you, but that's the truth.

The greatest power you have in a team is the knowledge of how to follow up on your partner's moves and the role your character should have. That is it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

For the longest time I have said Wolf is **** in doubles. Wolf is a lone character. He can't use his amazing spacing when three people are in his way. No way of zoning correctly or using certain mindgames if you can't focus on one person. Wolf and Falco are horribad in doubles. Fox isn't as bad in doubles because of his amazing usmash and better recovery then the others. Mk gimping to the extreme. Just use Mk >_>

 

[tekkie]

Wolf is a lone character.

you're such a dork

 

[Ishiey]

Shine gimps are much more risky in doubles…If someone grabs the ledge when you out shining, you die. Using shine to break combos is somewhat haphazard. It makes you a sitting duck because of the lag. Basically when Wolf is Bairing an opponent, his partner should sandwich Wolf and then Wolf is becomes a pinball between the opponents. Wolf’s Bair makes him vulnerable in front of him and on smaller stages, the opponent’s partner will be closer to help out if need be. Sure this works when the layout is _O_W_P_O_ (Opponent, Wolf, Partner), but in any other situation, Wolfs not that good. It’s so easy to double team Wolf since so many of his moves have a lot of lag. Wolf does fine on FD, since there’s lots of space, but on the smaller stages, everything becomes more cramped for Wolf and his offstage game come play more…Also, Wolf’s aerial control gets disturbed by MK, Wario, and GnWs, so I don’t think it makes up for his shortcomings.

Wolf doesn't need to recover to the ledge in all cases. If you're worried about that, then don't go out too far when going for the gimp, simple as that. As I'm sure you're aware, most Wolves try to recover so that if someone edgehogs they'll go right above and land on the stage, same concept applies for doubles.

The shine to get out of combos does make you a sitting duck, but unless your partner is in a very bad position it's not that big of a deal since they should be pressuring the other opponent. You make it seem as if it's a 2vs1 all the time, but in reality the opponent's partner will not always be able to step in and **** you when you do something that's not absolutely perfect. At least, assuming you have a reasonably competent partner. Because then when they try to punish you for punishing their partner, your partner will punish them. Or something along those lines, you see what I mean I'm sure.

Stage control is important, true. Wolf definitely wants to stay near center stage as much as possible, unless forcing an opponent off. You're also right about the smaller stages, where it gets a bit cramped, but on the plus side that means that the opponent will have less space to avoid Wolf's attacks. It's easier to get punished if you're not careful though, and Wolf definitely prefers larger stages for teams. How do MK, Wario, and GW disrupt Wolf's horizontal air ****? MK can't move for crap, Wario definitely doesn't outrange us with his fair/dair, and GW's fair is slower (you can SDI out of his bair easily, but that doesn't always end in an advantageous situation).



EDIT: Oh yeah, Dv8tor, play some friendlies with your partner using both characters and then decide on which one works better. Teams are a lot less straightforward than character A + character B, it's moreso about playstyle and knowing your partner, etc. Or at least in my opinion >_>

 

[Arrows]

Alrighty my turn.

What should I do against a good Toonlink and Olimar?
Thanks : ).

MU thread doesn't really say what to do, rather what we're better at haha, I feel like I need to learn the matchup better.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Alrighty my turn.

What should I do against a good Toonlink and Olimar?
Thanks : ).

MU thread doesn't really say what to do, rather what we're better at haha, I feel like I need to learn the matchup better.

I've played Pyronic Star and Radori/Lobos. So I have a good deal of experience. Don't have time to post a novel on the subject, but I'll give you tips.

Just because we outcamp Olimar does not mean we should spam our blaster. Only use it when you're covered with pikmin or the Olimar is an idiot and tries to camp you the entire match.

Olimar has a good ground game, so stay in the air most of the time. Try not to get comboed; he has a good couple combos on Wolf. Fair kills pikmin btw, so spam that, I guess.

For TL, we're actually even with him with spamming/camping. I don't care what anyone else says, I've played the two best TLs in MD/VA, and I camp them evenly. Blaster goes straight through the arrows and boomerang, and TL is very vulnerable when he's pulling out a bomb. So jump and blaster, and you should take TL down a couple notches.

Up close, a good TL will zair > grab. It's a pain. TL's kill moves are often utilt, upsmash and fair. TL also has a bair chain, so don't get caught in it. Try and SDI it, something I never try to do.

TL will gimp you offstage, so don't jump off. Although, he can get edgehogged, so.

Bair is pretty good against TL.

If I were you, I would search "Radori" in youtube. You'll see what TL does.

 

[Ishiey]

The TL boards recently discussed us, you can go read up there I guess. It looked like a good deal of information was posted, despite some "trolling" >_> No real clue on Olimar though, you're better off asking someone with more background.

 

[Arrows]

Thanks you two, Asaph that was really helpful. I watched a couple vids of Anti vs Dabuz, so I have an idea of how Oli plays.

Toonlink though is still tough imo, lucky for us he's godly light haha.

Hmm they're both *******, so hitting them'll be a pain and Olimar usually stays on the ground.

Thanks guys, I"ll see if anyone else has anything more to say xD

WOAH I GOT 1000TH POST !