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[MidnightAsaph]

I'd rather quit Brawl.

 

[Seagull Joe]

LOL. He is on PR in north carolina so he must be doing something right. I probably wont copy his style, but against snake, mk, and d3 this strat seems legit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is how you should play against Snake imo

 

[castorpollux]

that's why he lost to a snake i never heard of. No offense to anyone

 

[Ishiey]

Lol. I'm with Castor... I honestly didn't even know Mitsurugi still played, but just wow. Playing gay is a good tactic sometimes, but this isn't the kind that I had in mind, this looks like a Wolf from the early stages of brawl, which any competent player should be able to beat in a set. Just my opinion.

Oh, and if you're going to play gay, at least use jumpshine lol, it's more effective than laser spam to say the least.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Imagine adding full hop lasers to this strategy. DI away as possible. Constant retreating. That would make this style very gay.

 

[Gah777]

I asked this question on the Marth boards (since he's my main) but since I haven't gotten an answer yet I thought I might post this here since Wolf is my other main:

Is it possible to tech out of certain throws (more specifically Lucario's back/down throw)?

I might go ask the Lucario boards about this.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I asked this question on the Marth boards (since he's my main) but since I haven't gotten an answer yet I thought I might post this here since Wolf is my other main:

Is it possible to tech out of certain throws (more specifically Lucario's back/down throw)?

I might go ask the Lucario boards about this.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I asked this question on the Marth boards (since he's my main) but since I haven't gotten an answer yet I thought I might post this here since Wolf is my other main:

Is it possible to tech out of certain throws (more specifically Lucario's back/down throw)?

I might go ask the Lucario boards about this.

I don't know, haven't really tried it. Your best bet is to ask Lucario boards.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Couple of questions

1. Germ
   
   Germ was a well known Bair heavy player. I recall that he didn't do as well when players adapted to it. What tactics in particular prevented Germ from doing well before he quit? I watched a few of his videos and he did use other moves such as Nair and Fair a decent amount. What was the problem then? What are Wolf players doing now that would circumvent those tactics?
   
   Videos that showcase Germ losing despite utilizing Bair properly would be helpful too.
   
   
2. Shield Poking with Ground Moves
   
   What are Wolf's best shield poking moves when on the ground? Dsmash at the right distance appears to poke well, but I want to save it for killing. What is the next best option then? Dtilt? Angled Ftilt? Or should I just go for dash grabs?
   
   
3. Reacting to Fsmash
   
   Is it reasonable to assume that the opponent can react in time to Fsmash in offline play? I'm assuming a good but not top player. Recently, it just feels like I need more ground pressure to keep them on their toes. I used to rely on dash shield grab and dash grab, but I'm thinking of using tipper Fsmash as a mixup.
   
   
4. Planking
   
   Assume Wolf is behind and is facing a MK that is planking. What can Wolf do in this scenario? Blaster seems to fail as it won't hit them unless they try to return to the stage. His air moves won't hit them unless he risks going off stage (asking to get gimped) and his ground moves lack the IASA frames necessary to pressure them. I'm at a loss as to what to do. Maybe Dash shield, wait for them to drop, and try to hug the edge?
   
   
5. Grounded *******
   
   I do ok against most ******* who take to the air a lot. FH Bair and SH Fair range can be properly utilized against most of them (exception GW). However, I still don't know what to do against ******* that stick to the ground. FH Bair FF Bair is worthless against grounded ******* and SH Fair's range is drastically reduced against them. That leaves me with...SH FF Bair and Blaster.
   
   I remember asking JJ this question a bit back and he told me to bait and punish whatever I could. However, I really want to get them into the air where I can put up a decent fight. What options do I have then?
   
   I've currently been just blastering to hopefully get them to approach, then jumping around a lot making it hard to hit me unless they chase in the air. It doesn't work that well as they can easily pressure me to the ledge and punish me when I try a crossover. Good dash speed (MK) makes it easy for them to punish landing lag too.

 

[rvkevin]

1. Germ
   
   This is like Gaki’s game plan: Bair is all you need…I would call it Wolf on auto-pilot. You’re just trying to SH Bair their shield until it shield pokes, or you’re going to endlessly zone them with FH FF Bairs…While it may work in some match ups, or against some players, its definitely not the rule you should go by. I would only suspect it would work against IC’s and to a much lesser degree, DDD (Characters that are grounded with small range/slow ground movement). If the DDD is smart he will Dash, Perfect Shield, Grab, or do retreating Waddles, so if you want to make SH Bairs effective and your opponent closes the gap, use your double jump shine to be able to reset the position. It works well if the character doesn’t have good OoS options; like IC’s, DK, and No-naner Diddy.
   
   
2. Shield Poking with Ground Moves
   
   Dtilt’s not safe on shield unless you’re behind them. Ftilt is good if you’re outside their grab range and only the second hit connects. Retreating Fair is pretty good, retreating Fair to Ftilt.
   
   
3. Reacting to Fsmash
   
   Lets say the opponent is a Fsmash away, they could probably shield it in time…but you can punish the lag of a lot of different things in that position…If they put up their shield and drop it, you can punish the lag before they are able to shield again. OoS, if they jump, you can punish that with Fsmash, if they roll away, you can punish that with DACUS, if they roll behind you, you can Fsmash or Usmash. If you wait for a stationary dodge, of course you can punish that. If they don’t have a move to do OoS that beats Fsmash, (i.e. MK’s Nair, GT Banana OoS) then they’re kinda stuck until you Fsmash, which if shielded will most likely be punished…If they are waiting in shield, then you can dash grab…but if they expect that/see the dash, they can out grab you or interrupt with an attack.
   
   
4. Planking
   
   MK’s broken, there’s nothing you can do. Well you can shine him since you're invincible, but I don't recommend it unless you're only down by 1-2% and there's less than 3 seconds left because you're not going to make it back onstage. Really situational if you think about it....

 

[SelfPossessed]

Thanks for responding rvkevin.

1. Germ
   
   Was Germ's problem was mindlessly attacking without predicting the opponent? Or is SH FF Bair and FH FF Bair not useful in many matchups? As in, is the problem with the player or with Wolf's Bair?
   
   
2. Shield Poking with Ground Moves
   
   I was hoping to poke with these, so safety on shield isn't a big factor unless the opponent angles their shield really well. I'm actually more worried about spotdodges (need IASA frames) and other attacks.
   
   Fair is great since not only is it good at shield poking, it's also safe against spotdodges and attacks. However, I was hoping for something faster and with more range (retreating Fair doesn't have a lot of advancing range) as there are 6 or so frames before Wolf leaves the ground.
   
   I did a little testing. Dsmash is still the easiest to poke the bottom of the shield with, though its range is out of Wolf's preferred zone. Dtilt is too difficult to use as it seemed to only poke the front of the shield if they weren't angling forwards; the correct spacing for it is really strict. Down angled Ftilt seems to be the only decent option. Assuming the first hit lands due to improper spacing, if the opponent shieldgrabs too late or doesn't have the grab range to punish, the second hit of Ftilt will land. If they wait for both hits, it increases the chance of a shield poke.
   
   I might try applying down angled Ftilt a little more (in particular after a staled FF Bair on shield), but it feels risky. It can possibly beat out attacks and shield poke, but it fails terribly against spotdodge. Another option is dash grab, which could work against shields, but fails against both attacks and spotdodge.
   
   
3. Reacting to Fsmash
   
   Hrmm. Using Fsmash to punish shields is an interesting idea. If I understand what you're saying, if I catch them holding shield when in Fsmash range, I can possibly punish almost every option they have.
   
   So, I do an empty SH and FF. They're expecting a Bair and shield, but I land while still in Fsmash range. Now I have them in this trap, though it feels pretty risky given that the odds are against me. Fsmash is too slow to trap them on reaction, so I have to predict them. I'll try it a bit and see how I do.
   
   Usually after an empty SH, I land closer and turnaround Grab or Dsmash (possibly charged depending on their reaction time). Dsmash has a good chance of shield poking and can theoretically beat out roll/jump/grab if they react too slow. The same goes for Grab. The main issue is if they react fast enough to spotdodge, in which case I have to mix it up.
   
   
4. Planking
   
   So I'm screwed? What are my best options? My ideas are...
   
   Whiffing attacks and seeing their reaction might work. Whiff a jab. If that doesn't do it, whiff a Dtilt. If not that, a Ftilt angled down. If not that, charge a Dsmash. Hopefully they'll rush back onstage to punish you and you can shield it in time.
   
   That or dash shield next to the ledge and see their reaction. Then either punish OoS if they attacked or try for an edgehug to ledgedrop jumpshine if they keep renewing invincibility frames.
   
   Any suggestions? I mean, against D3 there's the "don't get grabbed." Surely there's SOMETHING Wolf can do against a planking MK, unreasonable though it may be.
   
   
5. Grounded *******
   
   Any advice? I feel so awkward playing *******; I'd rather face a D3 and risk chaingrabs than a ****** who eliminates many of my tactics due to their vertical height alone.

 

[rvkevin]

1. Germ
   
   "Or is SH FF Bair and FH FF Bair not useful in many matchups? As in, is the problem with the player or with Wolf's Bair?"
   
   I haven’t really watched any of Germ’s videos, just that you said he was a Bair heavy player, so is Gaki, and that’s how JJ started out as, but as I started punishing Bair, he started to implement Wolf's other attacks . It’s just that there are ways around the Bair, certain ways to punish either SH Bair or FH Bair if you’re in the right position…However there are some characters that don’t have this ability and likely the reason I dropped them: Lucas, DK, etc. Some players may not know when to punish or where they should position themselves to punish it…If I’m DDD and Wolf starts doing FH Bairs, then DDD can Bair OoS before the second Bair comes out (Something JJ says typical DDD’s don’t do )…If SHs, then attempt to shield grab if you’re able to mess up the Wolfs spacing or the very least, hit them with a Waddle Doo. This means that as a player they must realize their options against it and not sit in shield until they can shield grab Wolf, which won’t come easily. Wario’s pretty good at punishing Bairs since he approaches diagonally from above. Diddy can punish Bairs pretty easily. Basically anyone that can Fair, Bair OoS can punish FH FF Bairs, and anyone with a long attack can punish SH Bairs, especially empty SHs. So basically, Bair by itself won’t win unless its against a bad character, Lucas, DK, Ganon, etc. Then again, if Wolf recognizes he can be punished, he can always retreat and try again…
   
   
2. Shield Poking with Ground Moves
   
   Don’t forget running Usmash, if you’re close enough to Fsmash, if you’re running, your opponent may think you’re going for the grab and spot dodge and the second hit of the Usmash will hit them…Otherwise you can AAA afterwards and its fairly safe on shield and probably shield pokes to some degree.
   
   
3. Reacting to Fsmash
   
   "Usually after an empty SH, I land closer and turnaround Grab."
   
   This is what Ether was doing a lot of…Just don't be predictable with it, if people see an empty SH they might expect the grab. Also, don't forget that if your opponent spot dodges a Bair, you get a free Fsmash on them.
   
   
4. Planking
   
   "So I'm screwed?"
   
   Yep, SOL, no good options, truly broken, it’s not banned in your area?
   
   "Whiffing attacks and seeing their reaction might work. Whiff a jab. If that doesn't do it, whiff a Dtilt. If not that, a Ftilt angled down. If not that, charge a Dsmash. Hopefully they'll rush back onstage to punish you and you can shield it in time."
   
   If they’re intent on planking, I don’t think they care about what percent lead they win by…I played a MK that was intent on stalling time, ended pretty bad, I ended up getting 2 stocked, but it was pretty close, I was only 10% behind. Moral of the story, if you’re playing a MK that’s intent on stalling, ALWAYS have the percent lead (Unfortunately, that’s my approach to MK).
   
   "Any suggestions? I mean, against D3 there's the "don't get grabbed." Surely there's SOMETHING Wolf can do against a planking MK, unreasonable though it may be."
   
   I once played a game where I planked against JJ, he started off pretty good, he got the first hit, a blaster (5%), I then got the percent lead and planked, intent on never returning to the stage…He approached sometimes, getting hit by Uairs sometimes…He tried to shine me, was successful in hitting me (3%) and then proceeded to get edge hogged right after hitting me…So it ended up 3 stock with 8%...So the only suggestion is “Don’t get hit” or if you do mess up, “Always have the percent lead” since if you have to approach MK, you’re screwed, especially when he’s on the edge. Isn’t planking banned in your area?
   
   
5. Grounded *******
   
   "Any advice? I feel so awkward playing *******; I'd rather face a D3 and risk chaingrabs than a ****** who eliminates many of my tactics due to their vertical height alone."
   
   I don’t really play Wolf, but I think AC Fair to Ftilt makes a good wall…Jab cancels to Dsmash, Usmashes, blaster, etc…Bair isn’t the only attack Wolf has.

 

[SelfPossessed]

It's been great talking to you rvkevin. I'm learning a lot.

1. Germ
   
   It's not that I don't believe you, but I would like to present a theoretical counter argument. You're a much better player than I am, so I'd like your opinion on this. Given that my competition (roommates) are at a much lower level, I simply may not have experienced the level of adaptation you described. Anywho...
   
   FH Bair FF Bair does have an opening between Bairs. My new roommate (he mains Captain Falcon) started out by Uairing me after the first Bair. However, I started mixing up how far forward I moved when I did FH Bair. The result was that I began baiting out his Uairs (which whiffed) and punishing with a Bair.
   
   Now I don't know if this applies to moves like D3's Bair OoS, but I would imagine it's the same. The FH Bair FF AD behind should also avoid the D3's Bair OoS. The risk reward ratio may not be in Wolf's favor, but it's still doable.
   
   He also tried powershielding the second Bair. I began mixing it up by doing FH Bair wait Bair FF. The delay allowed me to punish him after he dropped his shield. If he held it, the delay made it easier to shield poke.
   
   With SH (my roommates have never managed to punish this right, so this is pure theory), Wolf can mix up SH FF Bair by not FFing, giving him slightly more time to DI away and delay his Bair. That has the side effect of shield poking the feet (opponents typically angle their shield up as SH FF Bair pokes from above). Or he could empty SH, possibly DJ away Lucien style or FF turnaround Grab/Dsmash. Again, risk reward might not be in Wolf's favor (D3 and his chaingrab make risk reward ratio absurd).
   
   If the Wolf can consistently land the falling Bair against the shield, the opponent shouldn't be able to punish it with longer ranged moves like Waddle Doos. There might be exceptions like JC item toss OoS (I'm thinking Diddy's naners), but even that I'm unsure can punish a well spaced Bair on shield.
   
   That has been my experience with using Bairs. Predicting aside, everything I said above assumes that the opponent isn't inhumanly fast enough to react to my mixups. Would the mixups I described work in higher levels of play then? Or would they be fast enough to plow through everything I do? Am I approaching Wolf incorrectly? I DO use moves other than Bair often, but I'm still very very reliant on Bair.
   
   Oh and, what has JJ been doing differently? O_O I want to see...
   
   
2. Shield Poking with Ground Moves
   
   I've been doing some thinking on dash grab and I'm leaning away from it now.
   
   The thing is, I usually won't get a situation where my opponent is holding his shield out when on the ground unless I land when they're expecting a Bair. SH FF turnaround and FH Bair FF AD behind are the two most common situations I get grounded shield pokes and in both cases I can just grab. Though, I sometimes just walk forward and Dsmash at kill percents.
   
   Angled Ftilt still has a possible use after a staled SH FF Bair on shield as it can shield poke if they persist in holding it or interrupt if they drop their shield and move forward (possibly attacking).
   
   I don't know though. xzax1337 has gotten quite a few dash grabs on opponent's shields, so maybe I'm approaching entirely wrong. Hrmm. I think it's since I like to approach from the air instead of the ground. The only real ground approaches I do (rare, but I do use them) is dash shield and dash forward retreating SH Fair. Wolf's ground game just feels so risky, though I do need to add some risk to get less predictable.
   
   
3. Reacting to Fsmash
   
   I always try to be less predictable. If they can consistently spotdodge after I empty SH FF turnaround, I'll either stop doing it altogether or mix up what I do after the FF turnaround.
   
   
4. Planking
   
   I'm only playing friendlies now so I haven't experienced a dedicated planker, but I want to be prepared for when I do. My roommates have planked with characters that aren't as good at it so I haven't had a problem with it yet.
   
   I guess the only solution is...to always have the percent lead. Sigh. I think that's harder than avoiding D3's grab.
   
   
5. Grounded *******
   
   I try not to be in jab range when I can. I just find that I do better when I'm at a zone that makes it harder to hit me. However, ******* might require a different approach altogether given that my current tactics just don't work. Would you recommend that I try closing the distance against them and fighting on the ground up close?

 

[Ishiey]

Turtle is a genius

I'm too lazy to make a real comment, but SHFF bairs really do work wonders. Great against *******, I don't know of many that have a good enough grab range or anything to make it that bad. Beat every Kirby I've played because of them, and his grab range is above average so... yeah. SHFF bair > shine if you hit shield against shieldgrab-happy olimars, btw.

 

[rvkevin]

1. Germ
   
   “Now I don't know if this applies to moves like D3's Bair OoS, but I would imagine it's the same. The FH Bair FF AD behind should also avoid the D3's Bair OoS. The risk reward ratio may not be in Wolf's favor, but it's still doable.”
   
   Air dodging behind DDD is tricky… (Note: most people don’t expect this, this is from JJ doing it a lot to me, at first, I would just shield, wait for his attack, if he AAA’ed his movement forward would put him in front of me, a Dsmash I just move away, a Grab I get about 10% who cares, I’m DDD, a throw isn’t going to kill me)If you FH Bair followed by and air dodge it’s fairly easy to track your movement whether you’re going to go behind or retreat…If you go behind, and he sees in with enough foresight, he can turn around and grab, which is bad for you. If he sees it too late, DDD can play it safe and roll underneath/away from you. If he was trying to punish the FF Bair, then the Bair will leave him safely away from you. The only way you benefit from the Air Dodge is if he tries to Utilt you, then you’ll be able to punish him if he doesn’t time it correctly (Then again, I’ve never understood D3’s Utilt’s hit box). Therefore, if DDD Bairs OoS, then he is pretty much safe and has options for if he doesn’t.
   
   “He also tried powershielding the second Bair. I began mixing it up by doing FH Bair wait Bair FF. The delay allowed me to punish him after he dropped his shield. If he held it, the delay made it easier to shield poke.”
   
   Tell him to let down his shield in between Bairs, it will save his shield immensely…If he holds his shield throughout the FH and FF Bair, his shield will be pretty diminished fairly quickly and there’s a period of time where Wolf is incapable of Bairing him.
   
   “If the Wolf can consistently land the falling Bair against the shield, the opponent shouldn't be able to punish it with longer ranged moves like Waddle Doos. There might be exceptions like JC item toss OoS (I'm thinking Diddy's naners), but even that I'm unsure can punish a well spaced Bair on shield.”
   
   DDD can retreat (and throw Waddles) if his shield is running low and wait for it to refresh…With the Waddles blocking any lasers you shoot. DACUS will not shield poke regardless of how small DDD’s shield is, you will just get grabbed. Not sure, but DDD’s Ftilt might punish a SH Bair on shield or a whiffed SH Bair (Long disjointed hit box). Interestingly enough, the first matches in a session I play against JJ as DDD, I’m lucky to get a grab off, most of the damage comes from Waddles and Bairs, and then my unorthodox DDD kills with a Dair. I guess it’s the Ice Climbers mentality; the opponent is doing anything to avoid the grab that it limits their options considerably.
   
   “Oh and, what has JJ been doing differently? O_O I want to see...”
   
   He found a new way to Bair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUcOei3FUM
   And a way to get out of chain grabs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik2G9i2OHzY&feature=related
   Oh yeah, and diagonal jump shine…
   
   
2. Shield Poking with Ground Moves
   
   “I've been doing some thinking on dash grab and I'm leaning away from it now.”
   It’s very viable, just don’t make it a habit.
   
   “The thing is, I usually won't get a situation where my opponent is holding his shield out when on the ground unless I land when they're expecting a Bair. SH FF turnaround and FH Bair FF AD behind are the two most common situations I get grounded shield pokes and in both cases I can just grab. Though, I sometimes just walk forward and Dsmash at kill percents.”
   
   Whiff/2nd hit Ftilts, Fairs, crossover with Fairs (Risky due to Bair OoS, but most people don’t react correctly first time around) and your opponent will shield more often.
   
   
3. Grounded *******
   
   “I try not to be in jab range when I can. I just find that I do better when I'm at a zone that makes it harder to hit me. However, ******* might require a different approach altogether given that my current tactics just don't work. Would you recommend that I try closing the distance against them and fighting on the ground up close?”
   
   Are we talking about Olimar here? A lot of the shorter characters spend a lot of time in the air: Wario, Kirby, MK, GnW, Pikachu…The only grounded ones would be Olimar and Ice Climbers. Not sure what the general game plan is against Olimar, but against Ice Climbers, SH Bair separates them easily and they don’t have the range to deal with it…
   
   Olimar, on the other hand, is another monster; JJ has been able to single-handedly dispose of Olimars in teams with Bairs and DACUS, but not in singles (You’re going to get grabbed more easily and Wolf can’t spawn bananas in singles). Story time, so me and JJ played this team in doubles, best Olimar in New England and a decent Rob player, 2nd hit of DACUS sends Olimar offstage easily to gimp him, 3 times…The Olimar switches to Falco…2nd hit of DACUS hits Falco offstage, easily to shine gimp, 3 times…That is the set we won that I neither got one kill, nor lost one stock.

 

[castorpollux]

I carry turtle in teams =)



**edit**

just kidding

 

[Gah777]

I was fighting a computer today (shame on me!) and it teched out of my dthrow (I was Wolf) and I was wondering, is that something people can actually do, or did that computer just get lucky?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I was fighting a computer today (shame on me!) and it teched out of my dthrow (I was Wolf) and I was wondering, is that something people can actually do, or did that computer just get lucky?

It's pretty easy to do, but also pretty stupid. Keep doing it, one dthrow after the other, and you're essentially getting CGed. It's embarrassing and I don't know why people insist on teching. We just punish.

If anyone has a vid otherwise, please share.

 

[tekkie]

I was fighting a computer today (shame on me!) and it teched out of my dthrow (I was Wolf) and I was wondering, is that something people can actually do, or did that computer just get lucky?

the computer ****ing does that all the time.

 

[rvkevin]

It's pretty easy to do, but also pretty stupid. Keep doing it, one dthrow after the other, and you're essentially getting CGed. It's embarrassing and I don't know why people insist on teching. We just punish.

Teching in place is pretty stupid, but teching behind you or away from you can be very smart. Some characters that tech behind are not punishable by a Dsmash. If you tech away, and you're at high percent you can prevent yourself from going offstage while still being far enough away to be safe...Some characters have trouble getting back to the edge after a Dthrow at high percents so maybe teching would be the better option...

 

[SelfPossessed]

1. Germ
   
   After a FF AD behind, I hold jab and can stop it before the third hit moves me too far forward if I hit shield. Dsmash is two frames slower than grab, has more range, and shield pokes well. If you can get grabbed after a FF AD, you can get Dsmashed. If I AD through a Bair OoS, I have successfully completed a crossover (which are necessary risks anyways). I'm more concerned if an opponent can actually react to the FF AD and avoid or, even worse, hit me out of anything I try. I'm less worried about the opponent predicting it as that means they outread me and deserve to punish me.
   
   As for the Bair OoS to punish the FF Bair, retreating (or just advancing less) FH Bair FF Bair should beat out an opponent's attacks OoS by causing them to whiff it. Whoever predicts better wins out. If the whiffed move doesn't have that much range, Wolf might even be able to get a Uair/Shine combo off.
   
   As for shielding FH Bair (FF) Bair, I do not start the FH Bair in range to hit him while rising (not in Wolf's good zone). He only shields the second one based on my position in the air. I use the first one to discourage aerials and to bait out attacks. Still, the no FF really helps to kill that shield. My other roommate, who plays Rob, sometimes spotdodges the second Bair. The no FF helps mess up his timing enough that I can get free punishment (FF Uair to massive Bair combos) during the ending frames.
   
   As for D3 retreating when shield is low and throwing out waddles, this gives Wolf a chance to refresh his moves. Staled Bair is more susceptible to shieldgrabs after all. Then the process starts all over again. It's definitely not in Wolf's favor of course, but he has no choice but to play it safe and avoid the chaingrabs.
   
   As for D3 Ftilt punishing SH Bair, I don't know. However, it is worth noting that SH FF Bair is safe against Olimar's shieldgrab, so chances are that shield drop Ftilt from D3 can be avoided.
   
   Diagonal jumpshine has been killing me. It depends on how jacked up my controller's analog stick is that day...some times all I'll get are suicidal side Bs.
   
   
2. Shield Poking with Ground Moves
   
   The thing about dash grab is, I tend to stay at Fsmash range. The only attacks that would hit while grounded are unsafe to use there (Blaster, Fsmash, Dash Attack, DACUS, etc.). My opponents don't shield when I whiff attacks from that distance unless I abuse the unsafe moves, a risk I'm not sure I'm willing to take just yet.
   
   On the other hand, though whiffing attacks in place doesn't provoke an aggressive action (they'll toss a projectile), I did notice that sometimes dash shield got a shield response from them. I guess it's the "oh he's approaching me, gotta shield" habit they have. I suppose dash grabs could work then.
   
   Side note; for the crossover, one of my weaknesses is that I'm not comfortable with them. I control the stage too easily against my roommates so I rarely run into the problem. Better players provide more stage pressure. Take your Snake...it felt like everything I did to return to the center would get me killed. I ended up getting reckless and predictable. One Ftilt equated to like 60 damage due to this.
   
   Also, I've given up on staled SH FF Bair to down angled Ftilt. I can't seem to buffer it properly. Trying for the diagonal won't work as wolf will just crouch and dtilt/jab. You have to buffer a turnaround and THEN the down angled Ftilt...which I couldn't get once buffered. I can see this working if I A stick, but I like my fast Dsmashes and Fsmashes too much.
   
   
3. Reacting to Fsmash
   
   I just realized that the SH FF turnaround Grab/Jab/Dsmash is technically a craq walk (gets a boost from the pivot). Now I'm wondering if pivot boost is worth trying to implement. If the effect is great enough, I could theoretically boost my way into a Jab or Dsmash. Hrmm.
   
   
4. Planking
   
   I've been brainstorming and theorycrafting about this one. There's the typical down angled Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dair onstage, but those don't work well due to their ending lag.
   
   I think that dash shielding (angled down for ledge drop shield pokes, gotta react and angle up if they jump and try to shield poke the top) is the safest way to approach superior planking characters. If you are in a bad situation, you can roll away to retreat, regenerating your shield, and try again. It's a matter of timing based on their planking pattern.
   
   If you can't get a shield grab off of that, I think that Wolf has to take some risks. It might make the situation worse, but you'll lose anyways if you don't try.
   
   There are two moves I'm looking at: Nair and Up B. If you can time it so that Nair isn't immediately interrupted, it should hopefully last long enough to hit them at least once and drag them downwards. You can follow that with a jumpshine and hopefully grab the ledge. As an added bonus, if they try jumping, the weak hits of Nair will steal the jumps.
   
   The hitboxes of Up B lasts about the same as Nair, but the startup is much slower. There's an higher chance of getting interrupted, but I'm interested in seeing if the windboxes could be put to good use. Doing an onstage up B towards the middle can do 3 damage and slightly drag an opponent towards the bottom middle of the stage. I'm not sure if the vertical windbox is large enough to catch them if they aren't holding onto the ledge though. You can also up B into the stage near the ledge, which will give them a more downwards trajectory. Another possibility is to drop slightly down and up B into the ledge such that you aren't immediately grabbing it; hopefully the last kick will knock them away. You could also go for more suicidal moves like up Bing into the ledge from above (maybe at an angle) or even dragging them downwards for a suicide kill if their recovery is weak enough and they don't SDI well (unlikely). The main issue is the startup time.
   
   Ideally, you can try for Nair or up B after a dash shield to the ledge. With the Nair, you can jumpshine or walk off to set it up. With the up B, you can JC the shield, jumpshine, or just walk off. Then there's the walk off shine DJ shine.
   
   Meh, it's still a big disadvantage for Wolf even if these did somehow work. I would like to see windboxes being useful though.
   
   
5. Grounded *******
   
   I haven't played enough ******* to be sure, but I have had problems dealing with Olimars range. I don't really find Olimar players in the friendlies that I've played, so this hasn't been that big an issue yet.
   
   The bigger concern though is a MK that sticks to the ground to approach, going aerial only for followups after he breaks past my zoning, for gimping purposes, or to airdodge camp. Ftilt, Dtilt, Dsmash, Dash Shield, Dash Attack, and Dash Grab are all good moves for MK that keep him tiny and hard to hit. I honestly don't think he needs to or should approach from the air in this matchup like he does in others. I haven't actually played decent MK players (both offline and online surprisingly), but even against bad ones I feel limited when they refuse to go airborne. I can't imagine how bad a decent MK will be.

 

[Gah777]

Is there a Wolf video critique thread?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is there a Wolf video critique thread?

You can use the regular video thread for that.

 

[tekkie]

You can use the regular video thread for that.

in fact we should encourage it to get back on topic

 

[Insetick]

I've been practicing Wolf's Dacus, but I'm not sure when to use it.
I usually throw it out after retreating aerials/lasers to pressure my opponent.
Is this a good idea? It usually works b/c I get the hit in while my opp drops his shield.

When do you guys usually use the dacus? Would you say it's easily punished when shielded?

PS. I'm definitely not tourney level. At best, I'd like to be competitive enough to go 50-50 with most AiBers, so I'd like tips that would work for my intended level of play.
Thanks!

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I'd say it's easily punished/countered. I only use it to punish from afar or to follow up an attack I already used. That's all I can say, unfortunately. I wouldn't use it that often really. Everyone I play will smack you out of a boost smash. It's still beautiful punishing / following up on something.

 

[Ishiey]

Retreating fair to boost smash. It's great, definitely try that one out, but as always, don't get predictable with it.

The more you play around with the move, the more openings you'll see where you'll think to yourself "**** I should've boost smashed", so don't toss it aside if it doesn't seem too useful at the moment, you'll find a place for it in your game in time.

 

[Insetick]

Thanks for the tips. I can now Dacus about 5/6 times

I've heard some of you preaching the jumpshine's greatness, and I don't see how helpful it can be. I've only used it to get back on stage or gimp offstage, and I've found it to be very risky.

Why is the jumpshine so great? And why use it in a wolf wall if it hampers your aerial mobility (this coming from watching JJ's matches)?

 

[Arrows]

Use boost smash as a taunt. Just do it. It's pretty cool. : )

Jumpshine will rock your world honestly. Well no just shine. It's godly. Shine to fsmash/ftilt/dtilt/dsmash(occasionally) is good. Its unpredictable because it comes out so fast. Don't abuse it though.

I don't gimp with it, I just spike. I spike 70% of my kills assuming they're not MK or kirby.

And iunno send me the link of when he used it in his wolf wall.

 

[Insetick]

I see a lot of Wolf players that use it in their Wolf Wall (not to attack but to retreat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uMFc2uUjQk&feature=channel_page

At 10 seconds, it looks like JJ used it as a safe way to get in the air. A lot of Wolf players do that when they're pressured.

Why do they do that?

 

[Ishiey]

Exactly as you said it, I guess. Shine gives you 8 frames of invincibility. When you're in a tight spot and your opponent is pressuring you, a jumpshine will give you invincibility to geet away in case they try to attack and also hit them if they don't go into their shield or whatever. Afterwards, you are free to space an aerial or DJ away to safety. It's a defensive option to reset conditions whenever you've messed up your spacing.

I have a feeling my explanation sucks and got repetitive, but whatever

 

[Arrows]

Although it only does 3 damage, it has quite a bit of hitstun and as I said before, it usually catches them off guard. if you watch the video you'll see that JJ had enough time to retreat

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I've been trying to incoroporate it into my game, and it's helped a load. People, in fact, get confused by it, and you get a free bair. O_o haha People can adapt though.

 

[tekkie]

I've been trying to incoroporate it into my game, and it's helped a load. People, in fact, get confused by it, and you get a free bair. O_o haha People can adapt though.

this. people don't know what to do about it. pick a shoulder button, switch it to special, press down/shoulder special/jump when you're in a bind, triple question marks, profit.


EDIT: jj, make a thread about chinese DI so i can keep referring to it plox

 

[Insetick]

press down/shoulder special/jump when you're in a bind, triple question marks, profit.

haha, thanks for the tips. It looks like the invincibility saves wolf from most ground attacks, so it does look useful. I'll start using it OOS now.

Why would you set a shoulder trigger to do special attacks? I use it to jump so I can let my thumb rest on the c-stick for aerials. I set Y for special attacks, which I think makes a lot of sense.

 

[rvkevin]

Why would you set a shoulder trigger to do special attacks? I use it to jump so I can let my thumb rest on the c-stick for aerials. I set Y for special attacks, which I think makes a lot of sense.

As long as you can press Jump, Down Directional, and Special at the same time, its all you need. If you use the shoulder trigger to Jump, then you're able to input Special with your thumb. For the people that use X/Y for jump, it might feel more natural to set the shoulder button to Special. Same difference.

 

[tekkie]

when should one DI by just holding one direction and when are quarter circle DI and such preferred? during multihit moves (snake's nair) do you continually tap a direction or just hold it?

and will JJ ever make his chinese DI thread?

 

[Seagull Joe]

when should one DI by just holding one direction and when are quarter circle DI and such preferred? during multihit moves (snake's nair) do you continually tap a direction or just hold it?

and will JJ ever make his chinese DI thread?

Mk can uair while being nair'd by snake ^_^. Frame advantages. The snake nair DI depends on where your being hit relative to the nair.

 

[tekkie]

Mk can uair while being nair'd by snake ^_^. Frame advantages. The snake nair DI depends on where your being hit relative to the nair.

that didnt even come close to answering my question you ultra noob :D