Ask a Qusestion. Get an Answer.

[Julio_TFP]

SH retreating reflector, or even better: never

Reflector have a usefull. If your oponnet is running to you, and use the reflector, he will trip. Is good for mindgames, and if your rival always do the same thing always, you can comboing him.

 

[Emperor Time]

>Surefire tripping
>Combos
>Shinegames

Lolwhut.

 

[J4pu]

ness doesnt release that far away from you it would be more frame efficient to just do a hyphen smash (dashing usmash) than a boost smash.

lol i just realized you said bpg not boost smash, no I've never tried a bpg, and that might actually work come to think of it, but tbh even with marth it's really hard to keep the grab release cg going cuz if you input it to early you shield rather than buffering, probably because if you hold grab you end up shielding and that's how it reads it if you try to buffer.

anyways back on topic for falco, let's check the frame data
falco grab releasing animation: 30 frames
Ness grab released animation: 40 frames
BPG: grabs on frame 9-12 depending on how perfectly the transition from DA > pivot grab is (courtesy of PureAwesome)

that leaves Ness with a max of 2 frames to do something, Ness turn-around jab takes 3 frames (plus turn around frame?)
shield comes out on 1 but that doesn't matter against a grab.
doubt jump happens fast enough

so technically it seems possible, just gotta be frame perfect which is very difficult, I couldn't even get the DDD standing infinite Dthrow vs samus down consistently which is also a single frame opportunity and all that requires is a grab input.
but yeah it seems possible, good thinking.
go practice on a comp to see how hard it is i guess

also what you mentioned about the reflector is the same idea as what I said just using a fullhop instead, the reason I say never is better is because I think it's a better idea to go in with a feint to get a reaction out of them and leave your options open so you can react and possibly punish with a more damaging or better set-up move, where as the reflector deals 6? damage and then resets the situation to neutral basically (if it hits). If they AD it, you're in at least a slightly disadvantageous position depending on how well you spaced it.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Theres the Buffer frames which adds 10 frames to get it basically, so technically against Samus you have 11 frames to grab her. The thing is for BPG idk if I should buffer just the dash durring the buffer frames or dash attack. I'm not sure if its even possible to buffer a dash attack during the buffer frames.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

turn around is 2 frames
shield startup is 2 frames
spotdodge is a few frames
jump is 5 frames

So it's infinite if perfectly buffered (11 frame window)

 

[swordsaint]

I tried it out the other day actually, and it REALLY doesn't seem possible. You guys seem to just be considering the attack and grab animations, but not including the running/slide frames. As far as I know, jumps are almost instant, and if we use the BPG, Ness could just run forward anyway.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

True that, also, it may be possible for Ness to be release too far away to get grabbed again.

 

[J4pu]

YOU CANNOT BUFFER A (standing?) GRAB INPUT (with the normal grab method, if you set cstick to grab it doesn't make you shield but I think it still doesn't let you buffer it) IF YOU DO IT TOO EARLY, YOU END UP SHIELDING.
i specifically said this in my last post so i wouldn't get the "oh but you can buffer it" responses.
you can buffer a dash attack, which means assuming you did it right you may be able to buffer a bpg since the DA input comes first, i don't know.

DDD has a 1 frame window to regrab samus in the standing infinite, I am positive.

shield start-up is 2frames? I wonder why I always thought it was 1... weird.

Ness doesn't release that far away (ground release), if ftilt can hit, i think bpg would connect (range-wise).

also the frame data for the bpg would possibly need to be confirmed, since it does seem to me like it takes a bit longer than 1/6 of a second (aka 10 frames)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

shield start-up is 2frames? I wonder why I always thought it was 1... weird.

Ness doesn't release that far away (ground release), if ftilt can hit, i think bpg would connect (range-wise).

If it was 1, why could squirtle and zss grab release > jab? Yeah.. it's 2.

 

[Mando254]

How do you guys deal with snake's tilts (mostly ftilt) and tlink?

 

[Denzi]

How do you guys deal with snake's tilts (mostly ftilt) and tlink?

Well apparently we can Usmash OoS between the two hits of his Ftilt.

Here's yer Tlink stuff:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=253791

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

YOU CANNOT BUFFER A (standing?) GRAB INPUT (with the normal grab method, if you set cstick to grab it doesn't make you shield but I think it still doesn't let you buffer it) IF YOU DO IT TOO EARLY, YOU END UP SHIELDING.

Wait... I'm confused. What exactly are you saying in bold? As far as I know I can buffer a grab by simply pressing grab and releasing it before the window finishs o.o

 

[swordsaint]

what xeylode said, you can buffer a grab as long as you release your grab button before the buffering window finishes. Though it doesn't matter, all of this is never going to happen in a real game

stop arguing nonsense ^_^

lets talk something else.


Falco vs marth? What do I do?
And how come no-one bothers to update the MU threads anymore?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

what xeylode said, you can buffer a grab as long as you release your grab button before the buffering window finishes. Though it doesn't matter, all of this is never going to happen in a real game

stop arguing nonsense ^_^

lets talk something else.


Falco vs marth? What do I do?
And how come no-one bothers to update the MU threads anymore?

You can stand grab against wolf, fox and I believe shiek o.o So it does have some use.

Marth... He has a CG on you from 0%-50% iirc. At 0% he can Dthrow upto 30% or so and finish it with a Tipped Fsmash. Also, he can connect 2 Fthrows together so long as the first one does not put you above 10%. If the final Fthrow that places you above 10% is spaced correctly in regards to the ledge, SH Dair will connect on Falco. Then all he has to do is edgehog your recovery :/ Treat the first few percents like you would a Falco dittos DON'T GET GRABBED!

A full SideB is inescapeable. But, if he decides to use the Full SideB to end with Down-SideB then it is escapeable. YOu just have to DI the final hits. Obviously you can avoid SideB not matter what, so long as you... "Don't get hit." -Isai

Marth can escape a few of your attacks with UpB. CG, AAA and Nair those things UpB will hit you out of. I recommand using Dthrow and do nothing, but shield. If Marth UpBs out you know for sure he knows how to escape the CG. Therefore, resort to things that will make contact right away such as Dash Attack after Dthrow. Which means Gatling Combo has a use xD I forget it exists If he does not UpB it means he is trying to bait you into following up with Dthrow so he knows UpB will connect, or he simply does not know how to escape it. Which I really doubt these days. Use AAA once and see what they do. If they do not UpB than try to abuse it while you can. Avoid AAA at percents where UpB will send you offstage really far just incase they decide to safe UpB for that moment. I've had Marths take the AAA hits to get me to abuse it, then save the attack for when I am in KO percents. Clever little.... :/ Ah, well I do the same thing.

No matter, Marth will always outrange you. Do not be extremely jumpy against marth with your aerials as you'll likely just get it out of it. Abuse the close range stuff whenever he messes up spacing. Shieldgrabs are your friend. Phantasm and lasers can help, but you cna never rely on them all the time. This match-up you really have to mix-up how you do things as everythign you have is punishable by marth.

 

[swordsaint]

I always manage to hit up smash out of down throw and the jab. Gatling doesn't work above a certain percent though, so it's best to just jab/up smash I guess. Keep the up smash fresher at the 70% range so it can unstale.

I dunno about phantasms though, for it to really be useful, you'd need to learn how to cancel it differently everytime. That's one of the things I often got punished for, he was spacing himself in range to punish the normal things, but always far enough away to get to the phantasms.

 

[Denzi]

Canceling is too good when you can do it consistently. I recommend learning it.

 

[swordsaint]

I am, but it's not something I'm gonna learn over night.

 

[Tommy_G]

You can buffer a grab if you set the C-stick to grab. Apparently, according to Seibrik, it doesn't make you shield.

 

[swordsaint]

You can buffer grabs without the c-stick....

 

[Tommy_G]

You will end up shielding if you do it too early. You never shield with the C-stick.

 

[swordsaint]

so get better at grabbing without the c-stick imo.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You will end up shielding if you do it too early. You never shield with the C-stick.

If if if if.

Marth... He has a CG on you from 0%-50% iirc. At 0% he can Dthrow upto 30% or so and finish it with a Tipped Fsmash. Also, he can connect 2 Fthrows together so long as the first one does not put you above 10%. If the final Fthrow that places you above 10% is spaced correctly in regards to the ledge, SH Dair will connect on Falco. Then all he has to do is edgehog your recovery :/ Treat the first few percents like you would a Falco dittos DON'T GET GRABBED!
True, read in critique thread.

A full SideB is inescapeable. But, if he decides to use the Full SideB to end with Down-SideB then it is escapeable. YOu just have to DI the final hits. Obviously you can avoid SideB not matter what, so long as you... "Don't get hit." -Isai
you can shieldgrab any of sideBs endings, i think you can usmash also. so it's pretty dumb if a marth decides to use the full one on shields. a single hit is alot less punishable..

Marth can escape a few of your attacks with UpB. CG, AAA and Nair those things UpB will hit you out of. I recommand using Dthrow and do nothing, but shield. If Marth UpBs out you know for sure he knows how to escape the CG. Therefore, resort to things that will make contact right away such as Dash Attack after Dthrow. Which means Gatling Combo has a use xD I forget it exists If he does not UpB it means he is trying to bait you into following up with Dthrow so he knows UpB will connect, or he simply does not know how to escape it. Which I really doubt these days. Use AAA once and see what they do. If they do not UpB than try to abuse it while you can. Avoid AAA at percents where UpB will send you offstage really far just incase they decide to safe UpB for that moment. I've had Marths take the AAA hits to get me to abuse it, then save the attack for when I am in KO percents. Clever little.... :/ Ah, well I do the same thing.
Chaingrabbing marth is a guessing game, but we can CG him till 27 and a dair. they cant upb out of our tripleA, lol. if you hold shield AS SOON AS the twirling starts you can PS it. shortest jab cancel is -0 frame advantage, neither can he upb out of nair except if a hit skips due to poor spacing.

No matter, Marth will always outrange you. Do not be extremely jumpy against marth with your aerials as you'll likely just get it out of it. Abuse the close range stuff whenever he messes up spacing. Shieldgrabs are your friend. Phantasm and lasers can help, but you cna never rely on them all the time. This match-up you really have to mix-up how you do things as everythign you have is punishable by marth.
don't abuse your close range stuff, lol. IAP and lasers all day son

rly now?

 

[swordsaint]

Xonar, you are god.

I swear to god (you) I'm going to copy and paste everything you say, treat it as if it's the bible. And study it religiously. I feel you can teach me oh so much, that which will make me whole.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Don't lol, you'll be the gayest falco in town

 

[swordsaint]

If gay can make me win, I'maaaa turnin. Falco's my fave, and if I ain't gonna abuse him, not gonna be beating people.

What's better? Fighting Ice Climbers fused, or not?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

you can shieldgrab any of sideBs endings, i think you can usmash also. so it's pretty dumb if a marth decides to use the full one on shields. a single hit is alot less punishable..

Are you referring to if you shield the attack in the first place? I was refering if you actually got his by Dancing Blades. Marth boards told me that Full sideB dancing blades is not possible to escape when done quickly enough, and all hits connect from strike one.

Chaingrabbing marth is a guessing game, but we can CG him till 27 and a dair. they cant upb out of our tripleA, lol. if you hold shield AS SOON AS the twirling starts you can PS it. shortest jab cancel is -0 frame advantage, neither can he upb out of nair except if a hit skips due to poor spacing.

The reason I mentioned AAA and Nair is because of DI. Marth can get out before AAA ends with DI and hit you before it ends. Nair is the same way. It's DIable and therefore UpB able to get out of.

don't abuse your close range stuff, lol. IAP and lasers all day son

So if Marth messes up Fair approach on your shield you will just try to phantasm him? Grabbing OoS in that situation where you know it will hit is a much better option

I still dislike IAP and laser only methods. It makes you predictable. Needs plenty of mix-ups along the way to make it effective.

 

[gopobox]

Are you referring to if you shield the attack in the first place? I was refering if you actually got his by Dancing Blades. Marth boards told me that Full sideB dancing blades is not possible to escape when done quickly enough, and all hits connect from strike one.

You can't escape dancing blade if you get hit by the first hit and the marth player doesnt do it slowly which they will never do. You can DI out of the last if he does the green blade for the last hit. Even after you get hit by the first hit of dancing blade, you should spam spot dodge because they could try the mix up of the db1 to grab which catches people off guard sometimes.


So if Marth messes up Fair approach on your shield you will just try to phantasm him? Grabbing OoS in that situation where you know it will hit is a much better option
Well obviously not. You would do something better than that like a bair or something....

I still dislike IAP and laser only methods. It makes you predictable. Needs plenty of mix-ups along the way to make it effective.

It is the best way to play gay thus making it the best option to use against marth.... But obviously xonar didn't mean to ONLY use IAP and laser. You should still have mix-ups and all but playing more conservative and gay will be better ^^. Also by being predictable, you can become unpredictable... like by playing predictable, you suddenly do something thats not predictable so then its like your unpredictable and by being predictable and then doing something else will be what you want?[/QUOTE]

I'm a noob but still i think what i said still makes sense?

IF SWORDSAINT SCOOT SAYS THAT XONAR IS GOD. THEN XONAR IS GOD. IF XONAR HAS A RELIGION FOR FALCO, AND CREATES A HOLY BIBLE, I SHALL READ IT....

 

[swordsaint]

I'm pretty sure smash DI, CAN get you out of Dancing Blade. I'm pretty sure I did it once in that Pokemon Stadium match in the critique thread. Or did he screw it up?

And if he mis-spaces a Bair, I'm pretty sure grabbing is the best bet anyway. Though, that's certainly going to depend on if he mis-spaced too close, or was out of range. If he was out of range, obviously we're going to chase in for the landing punish, unless he's too far away for that and our only punish is really the phantasm.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Are you referring to if you shield the attack in the first place? I was refering if you actually got his by Dancing Blades. Marth boards told me that Full sideB dancing blades is not possible to escape when done quickly enough, and all hits connect from strike one.
It's escapable with downwards DI+tech, it depends on percentage though.

The reason I mentioned AAA and Nair is because of DI. Marth can get out before AAA ends with DI and hit you before it ends. Nair is the same way. It's DIable and therefore UpB able to get out of.
Falco can get out of all attacks, he can DI down, tech and jab.
Btw, you can't DI out of tripleA quick enough if you cancel it early

So if Marth messes up Fair approach on your shield you will just try to phantasm him? Grabbing OoS in that situation where you know it will hit is a much better option
You can't shieldgrab a fair, even if it is misspaced. a FF fair is -4 frame advantage, if he upbs afterwards you get hit, it's too much of a guessing game, just roll away/run away and continue camping
I still dislike IAP and laser only methods. It makes you predictable. Needs plenty of mix-ups along the way to make it effective.

'needs this to do that' blabla johns. Don't tell yourself something ain't good cause it's hard to execute.

ofcourse you should never use the same playstyle against everyone, but I just found that the standard camp game method wins in terms of this matchup.

And gopobox, spamming spotdodges is a nice one against marth, but still punishable, especially if he predicts the spotdodge. If he tries DB1 mixups just jab him, hehe. Or roll AWAY.

Oh god I now have 2 australian fanboys, I gotta go tell my mom!

 

[swordsaint]

lol! I'm only half Australian. I was born here, but I'm half Scottish actually.

Kiwon (Gopobox) over there is actually Korean.

No cool accents for you. lol

Tbh, the aussie accent annoys me a little bit. XD Though it's often exaggerated when Australia is promoted in adverts in other countries. Ahhhh media, stereotypical *******s.

Can someone write up extensive guides on Wario, Wolf, Marth and Metaknight? Similar to the Toon Link one Vlade wrote up? I keep asking about similar guides, but I'm getting no answers and I'm no where near good enough, nor knowledgeable enough to do one of my own.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

lol! I'm only half Australian. I was born here, but I'm half Scottish actually.

Kiwon (Gopobox) over there is actually Korean.

No cool accents for you. lol

Tbh, the aussie accent annoys me a little bit. XD Though it's often exaggerated when Australia is promoted in adverts in other countries. Ahhhh media, stereotypical *******s.

Can someone write up extensive guides on Wario, Wolf, Marth and Metaknight? Similar to the Toon Link one Vlade wrote up? I keep asking about similar guides, but I'm getting no answers and I'm no where near good enough, nor knowledgeable enough to do one of my own.

I know alot about wario and marth, but cbb with the post... sorry x.X

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

'needs this to do that' blabla johns. Don't tell yourself something ain't good cause it's hard to execute.

Nah. I am just talking from experience. I have had a couple Marths do that to me in the past where I was UpBed out of those things. I think it was mostly because of the fact I got predictable that they did it often.

One Marth I played had the habit of Fairing past me to my back side, so I tried punishing them with a FH Nair (I couldn't SH because I have problems with OoS stuff). After like the first 3 times I did that they started DIing Nair and UpBed me out of it. I think that if I SHed they probably wouldn't have been able to DI and then UpB out.

Another I played did the same thing when I tried to AAA. They would either mash UpB if I started jabbing (which would hit me after like the 2nd jab). Or if I got AAA started they DIed and then UpBed me. However, it was really funny to mess with them when I started jabbing xD Jab once then roll away. Punish failed Dolphine Slash xD

But yeah, I'm starting to learn that even though something might be difficult to pull off, it is still possible to pull of consistently when the person is skilled enough. Samboner's Fox did that to me when I started AAAing. DIed up and over my attack to hit me with Nair. And hearing that Fair has a -4 frame advantage on block makes me think "darn it... another guessing game with marth T_T" That is pretty much what the whole match-up it seems. Keep marth guessing what you'll do next.

Can someone write up extensive guides on Wario, Wolf, Marth and Metaknight? Similar to the Toon Link one Vlade wrote up? I keep asking about similar guides, but I'm getting no answers and I'm no where near good enough, nor knowledgeable enough to do one of my own.

I am actually pretty interested to know what I should do against Wario and Meta Knight. Those match-ups are just a pain in the butt. The only solutions I have had to Wario and MK is to always be on the move and keep them a certain distance apart (which means moving backwards quiet a lot to reset spacing).

 

[Nightshine]

what is AAA? noob question most likely but whatever

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

what is AAA? noob question most likely but whatever

Pretty much what it says, you press the attack button (which for most people is the A button) 3 times in a row. Falco jabs out once, twice and then does the whole twirling thing you know?

 

[Nightshine]

Oh wow lol, now I feel stupid lol. Should've figured that out:embarrass

 

[phi1ny3]

Is there a way to get the timing down to cancel phantasm more easily, like does anyone have any little "tricks" to help visualize/time it?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Is there a way to get the timing down to cancel phantasm more easily, like does anyone have any little "tricks" to help visualize/time it?

Sound. Just before the 3 frame window for the phantasm canceling opens up, the phantasm makes a particular sound in the start-up lag. If you listen for that you can use that to help time it.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

How many frames do you have to do the extended phantasm?

 

[dainbramage]

1


10charsss

 

[Yumewomiteru]

****

10chars