Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Blacknight99923]

shaya is there any character that doesn't work well with MK

 

[Shaya]

Probably not.

(maybe not falco)

 

[earla]

is there a thread of matchup summaries for marth brawl?

 

[Nicks]

MK works really well with marth nicks haha

man earls taking this seriously.
Need to adopt him quickly.

Marth does well with MK or POWERFUL KILLERS, to compensate for his unreliable kill power.
Characters that also are good at edge guarding, because Marth's edge guarding plus another edgeguarding = ****.

i was reading this thread;
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260661
and according to this marth+MK wouldnt be a great team coz marths best role is as a carrier/punisher which is also MK's best role!

Doesnt a team generally benefit from having a stock tanker instead?

 

[-Cross-]

Yeah but MK can take on multiple styles, and his aggressive stance is also one of his best roles. In a Marth and MK team usually MK plays aggression, because Marth is a very good stock camper with his solid OoS options and good person to follow up with because of his good range and quick mobility on the ground and the air. Marth can also play the aggressor, but its usually better the other way around.
Just because MK's best role is being defensive doesn't mean he has no other roles. Teams can still be good even if characters are not playing their best roles. In general Marth isn't amazing at teams though.

 

[earla]

whats purpose of SH dair OOS in general? i see shaya using it frequently?

does tipper nair on shield space to f-smash tipper perfect?

+ what is first hit of nair like on shield? useful?

 

[-Cross-]

SH/FH dair OoS, good punishment option. Good damage since its usually not stale, gives you mobility in the case that they do block your attack, and can potentially set up a tech chase opportunity. Actually are you sure its SH and not FH, because SH is more punishable.

2nd question: Character dependent. You have to take into account shield knockback which is variable on how stale nair is which is very complicated, but I would say, you are more or less within tipper f-smash range.

First hit nair is used to combo. Not really safe as an approach and difficult to setup as a combo starter because its one of the slowest options for punishing. Only useful if you space perfectly (except against d3 and good grab ranges) or cross up against shield.

 

[Shaya]

any short hop dair oos is just an accident. Full hop dair is legit.
LOL

match up summaries? who does those.
!_!

first hit nair on shield is like... not a good idea at all. Too short of range, requires too much commitment.

 

[earla]

mikehaze v sky falco

he does dancing blade - red green green blue?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhImtJQs4vM


what purpose?

 

[Raziek]

My guess would be that he had realized that it was shielded already, so he was pretty screwed either way. I'd like to guess that he tried to fake green x2 to blue so that his opponent would expect green x3 and drop shield to punish. I dunno, maybe he'll tell you.

DB on shield is almost never safe anyway, so it doesn't matter much. xD

 

[Blacknight99923]

if you do DB on shield I recomend going to 3rd hit waiting like a second then do the down version of the 4th hit, hopfully if they aren't expecting it you can shield poke

 

[Remzi]

There is no green second hit btw. It was Red Red Green Blue.

Anyways, Full Jump Dair OoS is amazing, theres no reason to short hop it unless you're moving off stage with it for whatever reason or jumping from higher ground/a platform.

 

[earla]

why is full hop dair amazing?

 

[Remzi]

Because you can move to safety while attacking in a large arc below you in only 13 frames OoS. It's great if someones behind you or like directly on top of you and it's probably Marth's best way to deal with aerial or grounded cross-ups. If you think they are going to cross you up, you can throw out a dair OoS and whether or not they actually cross you up, you can still hit them. Thats the beauty of it.

 

[Allbrex]

Ugh, how do you punish Pit's forward roll to jab (he's behind you at this point) after you throw 2 well spaced Fairs at him or Fair to Dtilt? His forward roll is so quick it's hard to get the dancing blade in time or predict it for a grab or any move for that matter.

 

[Reizilla]

Best thing to do is not do whatever you're doing that's letting him roll behind you. Play it safer. It sounds like you're not fast falling your fair, because if you are, you should have plenty of time to see him roll behind you and dancing blade before he jabs.

 

[Allbrex]

Best thing to do is not do whatever you're doing that's letting him roll behind you. Play it safer. It sounds like you're not fast falling your fair, because if you are, you should have plenty of time to see him roll behind you and dancing blade before he jabs.

Usually I'll do 2 fairs or Fair to Dtilt, but by the time I land from the 2nd Fair or in the middle of the Dtilt he'll just roll behind me which with other characters isn't a problem for me b/c I'll just dancing blade them or grab, but Pit's roll is fast. I've watched Pierce play Vex's Pit and he'll do 2 Fairs but Vex wouldn't roll past him which makes me think is there something I'm doing wrong with the 2 Fairs or Fair to Dtilt that's causing that or should I just stick to a single fast fall Fair?

 

[Reizilla]

Short hopped double is generally unsafe, inpart, for the reason you're stating. Perhaps Vex just didn't think of it, but it was probably something pierce chose to do based on reads and Vex's play style. Stick to fast falling nearly all of your aerials.

 

[-Cross-]

No it's because you are committing to an approach and you aren't reacting to your opponent. Pit's forward roll is not fast like MK's and idk if it's one of the better ones, but when you commit to approaches anything is punishable. Since you always do fair>dtilt, even if everybody says dtilt is a frame trap and a good poking tool. If you always use it after fair, all I have to do is roll right after your fair, then by the time you dtilt I am almost done rolling, and I can punish the minimal post lag you have from dtilt.

I doubt your opponent actually knows that this is the reason his forward roll>attack is working, but all that means for you is to fair twice, not dtilt, and turnaround and punish the forward roll.

Also to use Pierce vs Vex as an example is not a good idea. You need to study matches extremely closely to determine why they don't make certain decisions when they are conditioning each other, and you also need to know the matchup to the same extent that those two do. Just because Vex doesn't forward roll to punish Pierce, doesn't mean that it is not an option people will try to do. By watching a matchup that you want to learn, you try and memorize the general advantages that characters seem to have against each other, but you play on a case-to-case basis when you try and determine the opponent's specific strategies and move selection.

 

[Reizilla]

That's what I was trying to say.

 

[Allbrex]

Very helpful guys, thanks for the input. I need to work on my mixup game then, so in general the double Fair isn't a safe option unless used every now and then?

 

[-Cross-]

Pretty much, in general anything used too much is bad really. Please don't make the misconception that double fair is "bad" option. Also know that some characters will be able to punish double fair easily, while others will be completely shut down by it.

 

[Allbrex]

Well I tried it again today with fast fall Fairs and added a mixup game. Still running into the same issue with Pit's foward roll being so fast. And you can't exactly just run at him since you have to powershield his arrows or jump over them. Just about every other character I can react to it and grab or DB np, but with him I can't seem to make it in time. It's irritating since this is something I know I normally can and SHOULD be able to punish but I can't seem to with Pit. Gotta be something I'm doing wrong...

 

[Reizilla]

Are you mixing up the timing of your fairs and are you spacing them properly? You don't have to approach with fair. Try not rising the fair, try rising fair, maybe fair to up air and see if it catches him behind you. Try a retreating pivot grab. It would definitely help if you could give video.

 

[Nibbity]

IT'S BEEN SO LONG. I doubt any of you remember me!

I was playing at a tournament very recently and I encountered a pretty nice R.O.B who played extremely defensively. I read a little of the R.O.B match up discussion thread, and it's clear that Marth needs to be aggressive anyways.

But my question is, what is the best way to approach a R.O.B without falling into his D smash, D tilt, or F tilt? If i'm far away, he's shooting those silly discs which can be dodged or blocked, but getting close to him serves as a problem. any small tips?

 

[Allbrex]

Are you mixing up the timing of your fairs and are you spacing them properly? You don't have to approach with fair. Try not rising the fair, try rising fair, maybe fair to up air and see if it catches him behind you. Try a retreating pivot grab. It would definitely help if you could give video.

I'll try mixing up the timing of Fairs, that should help. I've tried the Fair to Uair but the Uair doesn't reach his forward roll so I get jabbed, tried retreating pivot grabs but it's hard to anticipate with Pit's arrows going and his roll speed. What equipment piece should I get to record video, I'd definitely like to post that so you can see what I'm doing wrong.

 

[-Cross-]

If you keep getting punished trying to fair but at the same time you know and expect Pit to roll, then I guess the simplest answer would be to stay on the ground. Especially if you are having trouble distinguishing between when he will arrow and when he will roll. I kind of get the feeling that you try to fair after shielding an arrow and then he just rolls behind you while you are in the air. I could be wrong, but if this is the case just stay in your shield. When you see him roll just shield drop and turn around DB. You keep your shield up just in case he ends up going for an attack such as dash attack or something. Also remember that you have to be sufficiently close to him so that your fair would land on hit, don't hold your shield half a stage away and expect him to roll.

Videos would be nice though, it will certainly help determine why exactly you are having problems. And if it is necessarily your reaction speed or just smart decision making by your opponent.

 

[light-zion]

uhhh i need help anf this is kinda hard witch is better for a person who mains marth use tap jump off and R to jump or defalut?????

 

[SAX]

Hey, I'm having trouble finding my main. All my friends tell me I play very aggressively though so i thought I wuld look into marth. Would you say that Marth is good for a agresive player? Or is there a better character?

 

[Shaya]

A lot of marth's prefer tap jump on.

Marth can play reasonably aggressive but it takes a lot of time/skill/effort to do so whilst maintaining good spacing (which is a MUST to win with him).

 

[light-zion]

yea got a point but some times i accidently jump ...?

 

[earla]

does tipper shield breaker decrease opponents shield more than one that is spaced badly?

y do u want port priority v snake?

 

[Inle~Orichas]

I have a question about the nature of the video critique thread.

About a month back I submitted a group of videos and the initial response I recieved was that the videos in question were not clear enough to give me much advice past the obvious "you're doing it wrong".

I was wondering if it might be more informative to send a clip of my Marth just simply spacing F-airs and other basics just to show the viewer what I can physically do before actually showing a video of gameplay.

This way the critique in question could take into account from the get-go that this Marth in particular (has a tendency to input a forward smash upon landing, doesn't retreat aerials or does so very slightly, isn't quick enough in his/her inputs, etc.) is misusing Marths capabilities.

This would provide the reviewer a Control to compare the match to when considering just how to respond to help the Marth improve.


Any response would be appreciated.

 

[earla]

how do you correctly do a falling forward fair so you can't be punished if spaced perfectly?

is it SH > Fast Fall > C stick Forward ?

or

SH > C stick Forward > Fast Fall

also, i've seen grab release to fair on toon link, snake, diddy by good marth players?

how does that work ..? if opponent doesn't DI away?

cheers

 

[Shaya]

Maybe a good idea Inle, but one thing that I would often think is important is how you handle at least slight pressure/variation in movements.

And earl, you have a wii and brawl don't you?
You can test these things out yourself...
The ff aerial thing you said is how you would "feel" doing it depending on the situation. -Generally- if you're trying to get the optimum "-4" disadvantage, you'd be doing the former though.

Really earl, a lot of your questions are things you could test yourself in 5 seconds. If you're serious about using Marth you need to actually learn how the character feels to use as well.

If you can force an air release on those characters, you can get a fair, potentially. Snake not so much guaranteed but he doesn't have great options to avoid.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Maybe a good idea Inle, but one thing that I would often think is important is how you handle at least slight pressure/variation in movements.

True, but what I mean by a display of basics is actually showing ones Marth in the least pressuring of circumstances.

For example, if I were to show you a practice video where my spacing of F-air (against a stationary, shielding target) was phenomenal, but in the video in question showed me being constantly grabbed out of shield, what could you conclude?

You see a lack of adaptability, and a player who doesn't compensate for the slight pressure/variation of movements.

However if the technical video shows very shoddy F-air spacing against a shielding opponent, but the video showed a Marth who very rarely retreated when spacing F-air and instead would cross-up the opponent or would punish the shield grab by spamming Up-B, what could you conclude from that if the Marth actually won?

Other than the opponent not being the best, you could see that the player knew his inability to space F-air on shield, and instead attempted an alternate path to victory.

I think that without the technical video, all you would be able to see was a Marth who is really bad and simply didn't know the right way to win with Marth, and that these mistakes were made due to a lack of knowledge of the game, and not the inability to exercise the proper technique.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Shaya]

I prefer seeing marths make the right move choices. So if a Marth is able to mix up/use their brain well to win then good for them. Spacing comes from practising against humans, mostly; and of course is important, but getting smarter is getting better.

 

[Rushisu]

I need some advice for the snake match up.

Snake:
The problem i got with snake is the grabbing play style with nades. Nade->Shield Grab->Dtrow->Nade explode without doing snake damege. 1. I cant get in with Uair or i get power shield. 2. Fair will fail when his shield is low and the nate will explode. And 3 getting back on the egde is a hell of a problem, he wil shield my attack and Ftrow me back off stage. Anybody some advice? Becaese im getting irritated of the gay play style.

EDIT: Ohh and 4 my english sucks O.O''

 

[Reizilla]

If you're spacing properly, you shouldn't be getting blown up my shield grenades. Try full hopping your fairs more and you definitely shouldn't get shield grabbed. If you know he's gonna shield your attack from the edge, throw out a shield breaker. The biggest thing of the edge is to keep mixing it up. It's one of the hardest parts of almost any matchup, in my opinion. Don't be afraid to do a couple of regrabs or plank a little to buy time. Regular get up under 100% is a good option as well.

 

[earla]

explain optimum "-4" disadvantage please? from sh ff fair falling on shield?

what is best move to cover after the sh ff fair?

jab, d-tilt?

how are they both used after the fair most effectively?

tips on recovering -> ? im finding im having to land on the stage alot with up b then punished.