Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[XACE-K]

Tested some of Ike's bad match-ups:

Meta Knight can't jump.

Falco can't jump.

Dedede can't jump.

Olimar CAN jump (though Olimar is no longer as bad !).

Lucario can't.

Marth can't.

So Ike's bad match-ups aren't as bad now.

And people thought Ike was garbage after April

Spoiler

or whenever people realized how to dodge an f-smash.

 

[Kishin]

Are meta knight or Marth able to up+b out of he infinite?

Also, I'd like to know why charging a quick draw towards the ledge when someone is hanging from it is a bad thing. The worst thing that could happen is that they have a projectile they could use to get you out of charging it. I just want to know which characters I am able to hit if their invincibility frames run out on the ledge and which characters I am not able to hit.

 

[Palpi]

Are meta knight or Marth able to up+b out of he infinite?

Also, I'd like to know why charging a quick draw towards the ledge when someone is hanging from it is a bad thing. The worst thing that could happen is that they have a projectile they could use to get you out of charging it. I just want to know which characters I am able to hit if their invincibility frames run out on the ledge and which characters I am not able to hit.

The worst thing that can happen is, they spike u or regrab the edge especially if it is a zair char or tethering char for the easy gimp. My best match up is lucario and I actually have to use Quick draw a lot, makes a lot of bad habits I get fmashed or aurasphered gimped 100 times, which forces me to use quick draw. But it is a very risky move, I mean, it is really all personal judgmeant.. if you think you can stage spike him or whatever go for it, but no one that has decent ike experience will hang on a ledge with out invincible frames still active.

I don't think im quite sure what you mean. Characters have invincibility frames when they grab. Especially if they attack off the edge ex) fox it makes it last longer because his ledge attack is slow.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Bthrow to dash attack does not change a match up. I'm not sure that nair will either a lot of us considered oli a 75-25 match up and no one ever questions it in the IDC when I label it as that but maybe the nair thing will bring it to a 70-30.

Fair is useless against oli Nair being safe doesn't make up for that.

edit: don't think so some places how ever do give less room for error like the right side of the burning tree on PS1. that hole next to it doesn't allow for MK to be infinited.

With marth my friend has spammed up b to get out but nothing happens. Sometimes he breaks out after a while so it might be that with a higher percent you can. Or I screwed up the timing idk.

edit2: kinshin QD sucks don't argue, you are supposed to use it randomly and unexpected not charge something for 30 seconds and let them come up with an exact strategy to kill you.

MK can start up his tornado then go own you. A good number of the cast can just duck under it I believe others can time super armor and invincibility frame moves to hit you and stay safe its just a stupid idea.

 

[Kishin]

If on a flat stage like Final Destination then you can hold the charge against someone with no projectiles and they have 3 choices usually: shield, sidestep, or jump.

If they hold their shield then you hold quick draw and their shield depletes and then if they start spamming sidesteps then you could try timing it to hit between 2 sidesteps or just wait it out. If you're facing ike or marth then they may even counter and right after they counter you can release and hit with quick draw. If they decide to jump then just release quick draw and nothing bad would really happen.

I hear quick draw should be used for getting around the stage quicker but even so it'll still be fresh.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

for god sakes not this again, you have a lot less info than yagami did and in the end even he was wrong. Theres a but load of things people can do besides jump and spam things they can easily just hit you out of it because you have no hit box till you reach there hurt box. Anyone with disjointed hitboxes can own you.

And a ton of people can duck under QD.

Then can also just jump backwards and punish you for the lag.

 

[Kimchi]

Sadly, people don't understand how bad QD actually is.

 

[san.]

For me, it's only useful as a jump to QD ontol platform for opponents far away so I can get closer to them quicker. That's really it

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Speaking of QD, I found another useless aspect of it: If you do the aerial quick draw slide, followed by a B reversal Eruption, Ike will suddenly slide the other way while using Eruption. You have to press "B" then the joystick. If you go joystick, then "B", you will just turn around and use Eruption while still flying forwards.

Try it, I found it oddly hilarious to look at. The ONLY was I can think of this as POSSIBLY useful is if the same thing happens if you try it during a DACIT. It would be a funny, over the top way to punish those attempting to roll behind you or spotdodge as you slide past them. I haven't tried that one yet.

 

[Palpi]

Counter Draw = most useful imo. I have prolly done it 50-75 times and hit with 2. One I slid across almost all of FD though. Really funny.

 

[Alukard]

RYKO ... is amazing lol

i haddd soo much fun playing him today offline ...

theres sooo much stuff i didn't know about ike since i stopped playing competitive for a long time now lol

 

[Rykoshet]

I had a ton of fun playing today dude, all sorts of matches. Zro beat the crap out of me though lol.

 

[Alukard]

I had a ton of fun playing today dude, all sorts of matches. Zro beat the crap out of me though lol.

it almost made me feel like the game is worth taking serious

 

[Kishin]

This probably doesn't belong here but... Is there supposed to be an age requirement for participating in a tournament?

Also, my love of quick draw coupled with my arrogance prevents me from believing quick draw is bad.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No age requirement.

And the sooner you realize QD is TERRIBLE, the sooner you can progress with Ike. It's weak, laggy if it connects, easily gimped, and easily punished.

 

[Kishin]

Well, I suppose I'll need have a moment where I regret using quick draw to convince me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I should play you on wifi. I'm fairly sure even if we have a bit of lag I can punish you for QD. Not as well as offline, but I should still be able to get jab off. Assuming we wouldn't lag like heck.

 

[Kishin]

Well, I don't spam quick draw at all or use it very much. But I think it deserves more credit as far as a mind game killing move. I wouldn't mind playing you.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

PM me your FC. If we both happen to be on at the same time, we'll work it out from there.

 

[metroid1117]

QD is only good for annoying your opponent when they're suffering from landing lag (at mid %s so they can't just come back and punish you) and you're too far to retaliate properly; free damage and slightly "fresher" moves is better than nothing.

99% of the time though, there's probably something better you can do.

On that note: Assume there are two tactics, A and B. A is more effective than B. Should I switch from tactic A, which is working on my opponent, to tactic B, which he has not seen before, just because I think he's catching on or should I switch when he does catch on?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

umm yes you should switch to tatic B as long as it works.

It seems way to simple that way since there is like tatic x and y too. There are some which you should never try, like Fairing olimar and others which you should mix around so you don't get predictable. That happened to me this weekend I would always jump out of combos/strings and my friend wised up to it and started upBing me with MK, so I would loose my jump and get knocked off the stage.

kishin seriously go through the index and read all the threads on QD, if you don't have something that has not been mentioned there yet believe us that QD sucks. And it says tourney discussion on the title why wouldn't that belong here... Thats like the guy who bumped the old version of this thread even though it says not too and it has a very similar title.

 

[Kishin]

Sorry, I just love quick draw too much right now to let it go so easily. On Battlefield, if I'm facing someone for the first time then 80 or so % of the time they will drop down off the platform. That means right at the beginning I quick draw them and I 99% of the time get a 8% lead in seconds. It's true that they are able to punish this but they usually don't see it coming the first time so they air dodge. Also, I don't use quick draw often. Quick draw is one of my mix-ups but then I just see people never using quick draw ever.

I'll try and explain what I think about Quick Draw in tiers:
I'm not arguing that quick draw is essentially a bad move in general, but...
Quick Draw is a bottom tier move.
BUT, if used correctly, I think it has a chance to be low tier. It's not so much as saying whether quick draw is good or bad but people not giving enough credit to a bad move that has it's uses.

 

[•Col•]

Sorry, I just love quick draw too much right now to let it go so easily. On Battlefield, if I'm facing someone for the first time then 80 or so % of the time they will drop down off the platform. That means right at the beginning I quick draw them and I 99% of the time get a 8% lead in seconds. It's true that they are able to punish this but they usually don't see it coming the first time so they air dodge. Also, I don't use quick draw often. Quick draw is one of my mix-ups but then I just see people never using quick draw ever.

Yeah, too bad that it has such crappy knockback that if they get hit with Quickdraw when they're at 0%, they can usually still hit you. ._.

I'll try and explain what I think about Quick Draw in tiers:
I'm not arguing that quick draw is essentially a bad move in general, but...
Quick Draw is a bottom tier move.
BUT, if used correctly, I think it has a chance to be low tier. It's not so much as saying whether quick draw is good or bad but people not giving enough credit to a bad move that has it's uses.

That's stupid. Quickdraw is bad and always will be. Using Quickdraw "correctly" is not using Quickdraw like at all.

 

[Rykoshet]

Quick draw as an attack is worthless. It's barely useful as a travel method. Played a friend today who thought that "well it's unexpected" was a good reason to use it, then I fsmashed him out of it, repeatedly. It's not good.

 

[Alukard]

Quick draw as an attack is worthless. It's barely useful as a travel method. Played a friend today who thought that "well it's unexpected" was a good reason to use it, then I fsmashed him out of it, repeatedly. It's not good.

i have the best upsmashes ever!!!! =D

also my quick draws are good too =]

 

[Kishin]

You're all breaking my heart, because that's where my love of quick draw is located.

Is a spaced quick draw toward someone hanging on the ledge not viable? If they don't have a projectile then they don't have very safe options.

And even though they probably still can hit you after the low knock back quick draw it's still fun to do because it's too unexpected to react against, usually...

And yet ANOTHER thing, when Ike's F-smash hits the ground, is that like a hit with different properties like more knock back or something? I just F-smashed some people and it seemed like it was... different compared to F-smashing and connecting midair compared to connecting on the ground... Or maybe the hit box lasts longer when it hits the ground. It's probably my imagination...

 

[YagamiLight]

You're all breaking my heart, because that's where my love of quick draw is located.

Is a spaced quick draw toward someone hanging on the ledge not viable? If they don't have a projectile then they don't have very safe options.

And even though they probably still can hit you after the low knock back quick draw it's still fun to do because it's too unexpected to react against, usually...

And yet ANOTHER thing, when Ike's F-smash hits the ground, is that like a hit with different properties like more knock back or something? I just F-smashed some people and it seemed like it was... different compared to F-smashing and connecting midair compared to connecting on the ground... Or maybe the hit box lasts longer when it hits the ground. It's probably my imagination...

1) If you use Quick Draw on someone hanging on the edge, it will whiff and you will be ledge get up attacked. If you sit there charging it, they either ledgehop and attack you or ledgedrop and bait a movement.

2) Use Quick Draw only when you KNOW it will hit and you will not be punished for it. What I read there was the equivalent of "If I go headbutt this convicted felon he might be laughing too hard to kill me."

3) The very tip of Fsmash is a sourspot that sends them at an upwards trajectory. I have not seen people hit in midair with that.

Anyways tl;dr:

Use Quick Draw only if you are 100% sure of what you are doing and even then you probably have a better option. I love the move but seriously Quick Draw is high risk, low reward.

 

[Rykoshet]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=12612

That's the long version of why quick draw is worthless.

 

[Kishin]

1) Ledge hopped attacks don't have much range. If they bait you then don't fall for it.

2) Specific times to use it offensively? Only one I could think of is that if they charge up a smash attack with a lot of lag hoping you'd run into it.

3) That's all eh? Is there a sound difference between hitting someone with it midair vs on the ground?


@ryko: "someone at 60 last stock go off stage against a character that's at like 140", I thought that the mindset is that because it has so many negatives to it, that it's more unexpected. People tend to cross off options against something that seems so irrational that the opponent would never do. I think we all have an experience such as someone running mid stage and doing a non-charged F-smash in your face and you wait there and right after they finish you run up about to attack. But no, they do another non-charged F-smash right after and you, not expecting this, either fail to shield in time or run back causing you to stop and get hit wondering how stupid you could possibly be. I might just be imagining Ike F-smashing when I type this though, or maybe this is my scrub side taking over for a bit.

I guess after all these anti-quick draw arguments I am willing to accept that quick draw sucks in almost every way possibly. Not that I'll stop using it any time soon.

But... what about the matter of charging quick draw to test the opponents behavior? To see if they like to side step or shield. If they tend to side step more then hold jab more and if they tend to shield grab more. Would that fit under ryko's "was it worth it?" post or would the benefits be better?

I don't mean to really question or argue but I just like quick draw...

 

[Palpi]

Lol, everyone likes the bad move. I was playing this guy d3 at cot4 I got first 2 hits on him and they were eruptions, 1 with the super armor. I don't know why i did it, it just happened but. Everyone has already said it is extremely situational and until high percent, it has so much lag that you'll get punished. If an Ike player "fakes you out" with 2 forward smashes, you must be... ..

An opponents behavior to quick draw, they either shield and punish you, or they jump and wait for u to let go. It is really not good.

 

[san.]

I hit a metaknight out of tornado, glide attack, and ledge hop. Doesn't really make eruption any better really. It's still situational. (although IMO eruption isn't *too bad if used sparingly in the right places)


QD is so situational, it's hard to find more than 1 or 2 total (ground/platform movement) and even then use sparingly/"when the time is right" or against someone when you know aether just won't work at all anyways and you see an opening.

 

[HeroMystic]

Only use Quick Draw if your opponent is too stupid/slow to react to it.

I've been using QD plenty lately, and it's been working well for me.

 

[Palpi]

Oh san. I wasn't saying it was good, I just found it to be the best attack to hit with at the time. Eruption is relatively bad, as is quick draw. Just an example.

 

[metroid1117]

QD isn't bad enough to be neglected completely, but it is still very situational. Probably the most useful way to use it is when you're on the edge trying to get back onto the stage; you can confuse your opponent by edgehopping QD and either getting onto the stage, a little later than that to poke at them and then grab the edge again, or later to sweetspot the edge. You can even mix up the distance at which you land onto the stage by either edgehopping it backwards or straight up. It's useful as a keep-away method when you're coming back to the stage since you can mix up the QDs with edgehopped NAirs, but other than that there's little use for QD as an attack except for just annoying people.

 

[san.]

Oh san. I wasn't saying it was good, I just found it to be the best attack to hit with at the time. Eruption is relatively bad, as is quick draw. Just an example.

Oh, I didn't mean to make it sound like I said that you said eruption was good. I was really agreeing with you and trying to explain. My bad if I didn't make myself too clear. I DO admit that I'm starting to use QD way too much, but I've never been punished for it yet.



Next part is somewhat common knowledge.. but oh well

I think on battlefield, down throw is Ike's best move. Nair to up air on ledges is seriously good, especially with it being really easy to up air out of dodge and when they land on a platform. Up air makes all platforms instantly unsafe for most characters without a a ton of aerial movement (which is most of the cast)


If they try to avoid the platforms, it makes their *recovery* in a sense back to ground more predictable. Up air beats so many aerials in the fist place, so it puts Ike in a very good advantage to weigh the options that the opponent has and the way he's moving in the air what he's likely to do.


Ike has full movement of battlefield with (dare I say it) full hop+QD which can be used to position oneself in a favorable position quickly, so you can set yourself up for SH bair or platform drop bair or whatever relative to the position of the opponent. Against opponents whom Ike can win pretty solidly in the air when colliding, some of these moves gives him a great advantage. I think up air should definitely be spammed on battlefield :D


They can't run away very well. Ike can move as fast as TL in the air, and up air's lingering hitboxes are bound to get them. If not, during a chase, Ike will be in the advantage anyways. If they dodged (non fastfall) you can most likely get a jab or something in. if you just missed, you're probably too far for the opponent to punish you.


if they dodge relatively straight down/diagonal, I read that fastfall up air may work (or even if you miss, you might have a chance to be fast enough with jab). It's either jump, attack, run away(same thing as jump), or dodge. If after a dthrow or nair at lower-mid percents, Ike is too close to truly jump and have it be overall successful (ON BATTLEFIELD). If they try to attack, properly spaced, against most characters Ike should win. If it's one of the more "dangerous" characters, this should already be something to be prepared for with higher % of happening, even though in Ike's up air range it's still difficult. Dodging is what you want to happen. At really low percents, it's good risk/reward with upsmash against most characters, too.


The way battlefield is shaped just gives ike a lot of opportunities. In some cases, I might not mind even playing against a snake or marth here.


TL;dr: dthrow and nair to up air (spam)= really good on battlefield?? Not entirely sure how other people think about it, but after having this work against a lot of skilled players.. why not.

 

[Kimchi]

QD isn't bad enough to be neglected completely, but it is still very situational. Probably the most useful way to use it is when you're on the edge trying to get back onto the stage; you can confuse your opponent by edgehopping QD and either getting onto the stage, a little later than that to poke at them and then grab the edge again, or later to sweetspot the edge. You can even mix up the distance at which you land onto the stage by either edgehopping it backwards or straight up. It's useful as a keep-away method when you're coming back to the stage since you can mix up the QDs with edgehopped NAirs, but other than that there's little use for QD as an attack except for just annoying people.

Keep in mind that edgehopped Nairs are only for Attack sticks. As for QD, what I like to do against characters who don't have projectiles is to just hold it randomly any time. Obviously, if the person is not stupid, he/she will jump up to avoid QD. There's no harm in randomly charging QD. I usually do this if I want to change the pace of the battle. For example, if I think I'm being too offensive, I'll randomly hold QD and think about other ways I could play against my opponent until he approaches me, which will be the time I finally release my QD and start using my newly thought methods of playing him/her. Sounds peculiar, but I find that it works. Otherwise, holding QD serves well to have your opponent drain a little bit of his/her shield before jumping, unless he/she jumps instinctively as soon as you charge QD, which is very unlikely.

 

[Kishin]

Edge hopped N-airs can be done without the attack stick. Drop, Double jump N-air and hold right.

 

[Kimchi]

Edge hopped N-airs can be done without the attack stick. Drop, Double jump N-air and hold right.

Incorrect. You can't double jump if you drop from the edge. You can only jump once.

 

[Kishin]

Err, not double jump but your second jump. I thought that the common term for the 2nd jump is double jump but whatever. And I got the method slightly wrong, you slide your jump button to your A as you hold right.

EDIT: There's another method in this thread.

 

[•Col•]

No, he's right kimchi. It's possible to do a ledgehopped nair with the regular control setup.

It's just REALLY freaking hard and even more dangerous than doing it with the cstick set to attack.