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Apex 2015 Ruleset is out! Survey inside!

Hippieslayer

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Do you people want to run the risk of no-customs becoming the standard? Because with no customs at Apex 2015 that might happen. People are gonna refer to Apex saying "they didn't even use customs for friggin Apex so therefore no customs".

There is a slippery slope here, once people are accustomed to no customs, they will stop caring and then that human resistance to change will make it impossible to implement them.

People have to get that TO's aren't gonna do **** unless the community really wants them to, why would they? It's they that have to face the downsides. You can keep saying "soon" but that's not gonna change the minds of the TO's like ever, and that "soon" is gonna turn into a "never".
 
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thehard

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Spread the word that customs deepen the player experience and create for a more exciting spectator sport and that there is literally no downside to having them on. Strike fear into Apex's hearts by telling them customs off actually imbalances the game, which is true anyway.
 

RanserSSF4

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One of the things I love about Smash 4 from a competitive perspective is custom moves. I understand why Apex 2015 can't use them, but they should in 2016. Custom moves makes lots of average characters more competively viable *cough* GANONDORF *cough*

This will make most MU's very different and more fun to watch, even though I do think Smash 4 without customs at times is fun to watch.
 

Foozal

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Honestly I think we need to change the way we go about getting customs implemented. Instead of saying "Customs should be legal!" , we should be saying "Look at how interesting the game is with customs!".

We already have a great way to make customs easily integrated into tournaments, it's called the Standard Custom Moveset Project. We need to basically take that, and somehow explain why it's a greater experience than no customs at all.

I may need some help here, but I think ima put together a short report or something on just that! Infact, i'll go make a thread straight away!
 

ChronoPenguin

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There are only 4 characters who have customs unlocked out of the gate. I think it's completely disingenuous to think 4 characters who are currently underrepresented are going to take up an unreasonable amount of time in the overall scheme of Apex while selecting their loadouts
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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This ruleset reads like a rough draft. It has a lot of general direction things right but botches the particulars pretty badly and ends up not being a very good ruleset if used as it stands.

Let's start with stages. 3 starters is just terrible; the stage list is small enough every legal stage could be a starter, and it has baffling exclusions like Skyloft and Wuhu Island that are just obviously okay stages. So few starters skews match-ups; a lot of match-ups get more lopsided when one side can force either FD or SV (the two flattest, least dynamic stages in the game), and since in most MUs one side will really not want FD and the other will really not want BF this kind of small starter list is just forcing SV every game which is a really unfair bias toward characters and players who particularly like SV and is also going to just plain make things boring for stream viewers and a lot of players. It just doesn't make sense to ban Skyloft and Wuhu; there's just nothing at all wrong with those two stages, and they're pretty much of the exact same character as all of the other stages they have legal so those two don't really push any boundaries versus what they already are accepting in terms of quality stages.

The custom thing... It wasn't surprising to me but the way the Miis were handled does give some hope. The Mii situation makes it overwhelmingly clear that customs in themselves are not the problem (like the mere idea of having multiple movesets). They're citing unlocking issues which would have made sense a month ago... but 3ds transfer pre-event via the system we've all been working on as a community solves this problem. It's especially easy for a large scale tournament like APEX; since they have literally a nation's worth of resources, they should easily be able to get together, say, 20 fully unlocked 3ds units (that is, 20 physical copies of the game at all and one powersaves if truly no one on EC can be bothered to unlock things) and set the entire thing up in under a half an hour even on their massive set-up count. It's actually harder to unlock random stage switch in 4 than to set up custom moves, seriously. If all of the set-ups will have every stage unlocked (and they should!), there is not a practical problem to having a custom move system in place. I get a sense they just didn't get around to figuring this out in time, but it's right here so... it can be done.

A few of the other rules are just strange. Why is a Bowser Jr. glitch banned? I won't claim I'm familiar, but is this glitch severely gamebreaking or something? It hasn't made waves in the community at all thus far if nothing else; could someone explain why on that rule to me? Likewise, what's up with the suicide rule? Smash 4 definitely doesn't need it and shouldn't have it (the game mechanics are super explicit that suicide moves are supposed to generally lose), but the way the rules are written, I don't actually understand if it's a rule or not since it refers to a list of moves that doesn't exist so does that mean that zero suicide moves are recognized under this rule? If that's the case (which would be the best possible actual rule), why not remove that wording that doesn't do anything from the rules?

I don't want to just be dismissive; I know running APEX is a huge challenge and that perhaps making rules was a lower priority to other concerns. I can totally understand putting all of the other important components of running such a large national as a higher priority than making a quality ruleset, and the most likely explanation for this ruleset is that they just didn't have a lot of time to put into it and with extremely little time just tried to play it as safe as they could and made a few mistakes. I just wish they'd been way more engaged with the community on this; there are a lot of us who would have been more than willing to help them on the rules by using our time in lieu of their perhaps more limited time.

Of course, it's still pretty far out; this can be fixed if they want to do so pretty easily. The stage list thing pretty much just needs to remove the starter/cp distinction and make Skyloft, Wuhu, and "any other stage they want to make 13 total" legal and it goes from awful stage rules to perfect stage rules which is actually not that big of tweaking and keeps the core character of what they were going for with stage rules in-tact. If they are having problems getting the customs set up but that's their only concern, just let us know and we'll make it happen. I guarantee I can find you guys enough fully unlocked 3ds units to set everything up; just let me know, and I'll get to contacting people and coordinate those resources getting where they need to go so customs can happen. No matter how many 3ds units you guys feel you need to set it up in an efficient manner, I guarantee we can make it happen. The other strange rules like the suicide rule that as written doesn't seem to do anything just need some clean-up, clarification, and explanation.

I do hope, with the rules being out in the open, that we can tweak a bit to make things a lot better. I think the principles that were behind this ruleset are mostly sound, but it was just rushed and messed up some particulars. Just let the community step in and help out on fixing these particulars, and we'll have a super great national level ruleset that everyone can enjoy.
 

Lavani

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A few of the other rules are just strange. Why is a Bowser Jr. glitch banned? I won't claim I'm familiar, but is this glitch severely gamebreaking or something? It hasn't made waves in the community at all thus far if nothing else; could someone explain why on that rule to me?
It's a pretty obscure glitch, but it's...rather messy. If Koopalings respawn their clown car within a certain window before dying, all their animations become glitchy and left/right inputs cause teleporting.

 
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Yikarur

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@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos
Why do you act like your "unique" idea about the stage list is the only way?

Most people love 3 Stages Starter because they don't want to deal with others. I'm pretty sure most people would be even satisfied with those 3 Stages alone being legal.

Japan plays on Omegas only and they probably enjoy the game more than others.

Your post seems arrogant to me because you present your idea as the perfect idea.

I don't dismiss your idea but your tone alone has a negative taste.
Your idea is fine. I would play under it but most people deny approaches like this.
They want to play on BF SV Omega only.

And most people will enjoy this stage list. A lot of people would probably not enjoy your idea because the most "competitive" players want 1on1 only and not 1on1onStage.

You probably have to accept that your idea is not getting popular and that 3-5 Starters the old fashioned way will keep the standard.

People don't want to change a running System.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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@ Yikarur Yikarur I have talked to a lot of people about the topic and they do not agree with your super hardline position here. Yes, most people don't want "1on1onStage" which is why I did not suggest and was not going to suggest Gamer being a legal stage; that would greatly dissatisfy most players. Most people, however, do want some actual variety, and playing Smashville game 1 95% of the time and seeing a super tiny number of stages in general is going too far toward restricting that variety. The thing is that on some level this ruleset is very close to what people do want; people do really want all of APEX's current counterpick stages to be legal and probably a few more but not too many (Skyloft and Wuhu like I said are the only two really notable absences). Like I said, they got the character of the stage list right but just went the wrong way on putting it together. I don't really get why you're so aggressive after me here (seriously dude, it was unnecessary and rude to call me arrogant just to disagree with me) when what I'm suggesting is honestly not even that big of a shift; it would leave the basic character of the stage list in-tact and actually fully preserve the dynamic you're alluding to in which players have certain levels of expectation from stages.

Let me put it this way. You said people want to just play on FD, BF, and SV. If that's true, why not have only them legal? That's a serious question; it would seem to be the logical conclusion of your position as you even seem to suspect. If that's what people really want, it would make sense, and if you believe that, I wouldn't hold it against you for advocating for it. If you're wrong and I'm right about what people want, then my position makes the most sense, and given that I clearly am entirely convinced that I'm right about this, I sure hope you can understand why I advocate for it. If we can't, through reasonable discussion, conclude which of us is right about player preference, we could I'm sure devise some scientific test to reach a conclusion about what people want; that would seem to be reasonable and fair to me. I'm not seeing the possibility in which we're both wrong and their rules as written are actually optimal; what player preferences make that the case?

I have no problem discussing this; open discussions about rulesets are very important in my book and we need more of them. I would prefer we have substantially less personal attacking and substantially more discussion of merits. In a game this new, people in isolation simply cannot make quality rules; it's impossible for anyone whether it's me, you, the APEX rule committee, or anyone else on this earth. Only by working together, each of us pushing for what we believe is best, can we find the truth of the best road forward. That is why I'm here posting on this forum at 6:43 AM, to do my part toward that. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in this, and I don't think anything I posted previously is unreasonable visa vi my position here.
 

madworlder

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I've already filled out the survey, but I should have suggested in the comments section to just have Ampharos write the rules for Smash For.
 

ChronoPenguin

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If Apex's believe is that 1111,2222 and 3333 are more like "unique" characters of their own.
Then why not go further then that instead to everyone. It is completely feasible. I'd like mixed but repeating #'s can be interesting in its own right in a sort of sealed deck fashion.
 
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Remzi

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I don't have many qualms with the ruelset, but 3 neutral stages is NOT ok. This puts the person who strikes first at a major disadvantage as far as stage selection goes. We have 5 neutral quality stages, why not use them?
 

TL?

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I loved the rule-set with the exception of the exclusion of the green outline in doubles. Utterly arbitrary.
People with a certain type of color blindness cannot see a difference between green and red. It's more common than you might think. I'm assuming that's the reason for the rule.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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People with a certain type of color blindness cannot see a difference between green and red. It's more common than you might think. I'm assuming that's the reason for the rule.
I hadn't thought about that, now it makes sense. Is blue/green colorblindness also a thing?
 

madworlder

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I'm not colorblind but always prefer teams use red-blue or use 8-player and yellow-blue. It makes a noticeable difference.
 

Thinkaman

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I am red/green colorblind and playing teams with red/green teams is really obnoxious.
 

Pazx

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I proposed a colourblind rule awhile ago, here it is, thoughts? I'd be happy for it to be further restricted to Red and Blue, but imo using a red palette swap on blue team should not be allowed.

2. The Colourblind Rule: During doubles matches, a player on either team can elect to have all players change either their team colour or their characters's palette swap so that they match (eg. players on Blue Team must use Blue colours for their character)
 

Jaxas

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I proposed a colourblind rule awhile ago, here it is, thoughts? I'd be happy for it to be further restricted to Red and Blue, but imo using a red palette swap on blue team should not be allowed.

2. The Colourblind Rule: During doubles matches, a player on either team can elect to have all players change either their team colour or their characters's palette swap so that they match (eg. players on Blue Team must use Blue colours for their character)
I like it, however isn't Mario's (for example) "red" palette swap both Red and Blue?
We'd have to add something else to the rule to account for that, right?
 

Pazx

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I like it, however isn't Mario's (for example) "red" palette swap both Red and Blue?
We'd have to add something else to the rule to account for that, right?
You have a point, and I'm not sure how to work around it aside from assuming that default Mario (etc) is red.

I don't mind seeing alternate (non red/blue) palette swaps in doubles though, perhaps the rule should be that both members of the team have the same main colour? I'm not sure. I really want to avoid forcing players to use certain palette swaps because this is the first game we can use all the colours in teams matches (which is awesome) but I want the game to be more accessible to all.

I've always struggled with colours on screens.
 
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FirewaterDM

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90% of what I feel on this has already been said (3 stocks better, wuhu, Skyloft, other should be legal, 3 starters stage wise is not most interesting etc.) The one thing i'm curious about and think would be a interesting idea is why not let Miis/Paulentina have customs if it will help the character (Again something that's obviously been covered). For example, what makes this any different than from people putting in their custom controls, or tags, etc if they already know the specials they plan to use?

Again, I think people have all asked/said these concerns but i'm intersted in seeing a response from someone who'd know more information.
 

GUIGUI

Smash Journeyman
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90% of what I feel on this has already been said (3 stocks better, wuhu, Skyloft, other should be legal, 3 starters stage wise is not most interesting etc.) The one thing i'm curious about and think would be a interesting idea is why not let Miis/Paulentina have customs if it will help the character (Again something that's obviously been covered). For example, what makes this any different than from people putting in their custom controls, or tags, etc if they already know the specials they plan to use?

Again, I think people have all asked/said these concerns but i'm intersted in seeing a response from someone who'd know more information.
I think the concept behind it is that if normal characters can't have customs, then nobody can.

The summary of the survey has been published, you can now view the results (The survey remains open, so people can still voice their opinions.) I will update the OP with this link as well.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-a...FlnJI5Y9Z7Wmto/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm
I don't know why, but the image accompanying the stages polling are broken.
 

Gidy

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This is stupid. TOs need to give what the people want.
 

19_

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I hope people learn that APEX's rules should not be law for the tournament scene. If anyone really uses "APEX did not use that stage/custom moves so why should I?" as an argument, counter that by saying Project M wasn't APEX ether. ;)
Please bring it back next year.

The only thing that bothers me about the rules are that having 3 starters is a very bad for the person picks first making it un-competitive even. T&C definitely needs to be a starter while at least ether Lylat or DuckHunt needs to be the 5th. Having 5 starters would make this ruleset good enough. If we could have Skyloft, Wuhu, and PS2 legal along customs, that would make this tournament much more intresting.
 

smashmachine

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well let's see:

good things
Stage Clause rule: finally, maybe this will catch on elsewhere too

not so good things
2 stocks isn't a problem on its own, but when Brawl is 3 stocks....lmao
lol at 3 starters, at least move 2 of the counterpicks up to starter status and add Skyloft/Wuhu/maybe PS2
the Mii custom move rule seems like "**** it I don't know what to do here, let's just put down something"
 

Gidy

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How about instead of having custom moves just being pre-set to their 1-2-3 moves they make custom movesets for characters based on their popularity or viability. Like Mario, for example. His most popular moveset includes the gust cape and high pressure FLUDD. However, some player prefer the fast fireball over his other fireball so they make a new set that includes his fast fireball with high pressure FLUDD and gust cape.

If the TOs think a move is viable, like the shock cape for example, they could build a moveset for that character even if it's not popular. I think there should be 4 premade movesets for each character in the game. That way it doesn't take up time and custom moves are still in.
 

TheReflexWonder

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How do you treat suicide KOs for situations where the opponent can still make it back? Bowser and ROB (betcha didn't know THAT!) die first when they use their suicide option; if opponents can jump before they would normally die, how is it justified to say that Bowser/ROB "earned" their KO?
 

Nidtendofreak

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How do you treat suicide KOs for situations where the opponent can still make it back? Bowser and ROB (betcha didn't know THAT!) die first when they use their suicide option; if opponents can jump before they would normally die, how is it justified to say that Bowser/ROB "earned" their KO?
I wanna know how it works with Ike's Aethercide. If Ike just has to hit with aether on his last stock off stage and vaguely drag the opponent downwards at all for it to count, Ike is suddenly a monster off stage during his last stock. Its a suicide move, and according to the current ruling it would count as Ike's win! :awesome:
 

Thinkaman

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Devil's Advocate: Arbitrarily disregarding the game's winner (as declared by the game) is nothing new; we do it with our Sudden Death rules blatantly.
 

san.

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Indeed. I understand suicide moves going to the initiator if it results in a win or sudden death, but it doesn't make sense if the game tells you that you've lost.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Devil's Advocate: Arbitrarily disregarding the game's winner (as declared by the game) is nothing new; we do it with our Sudden Death rules blatantly.
In the case of ignoring Sudden Death after a time-out, we're not disregarding the winner declared by the game, as the game hasn't declared a winner at the time Sudden Death starts.

When the suicide ruling is declared, the game has already been put to a halt, considering that all "true" suicide moves kill one character before the other (Ganondorf wins, all other characters lose, iirc). That is a real case of arbitrarily disregarding the game's winner, as opposed to ending gameplay early.
 
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Thinkaman

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In the case of ignoring Sudden Death after a time-out, we're not disregarding the winner declared by the game, as the game hasn't declared a winner at the time Sudden Death starts.

When the suicide ruling is declared, the game has already been put to a halt, considering that all "true" suicide moves kill one character before the other (Ganondorf wins, all other characters lose, iirc). That is a real case of arbitrarily disregarding the game's winner, as opposed to ending gameplay early.
Right. No sudden death is forcing the losing player to forfeit a math that is technically still in progress (not unlike anti-stalling rules of all flavors, except LGL), while suicide rulings are literally retconing a declared winner.
 
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