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Apex 2015 Ruleset is out! Survey inside!

ParanoidDrone

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All this anger at the Apex TOs, when in reality it's Nintendo's fault for coming up with a cool idea and then implementing it in such a mindblowingly atrocious way.
Truefax. I can think of several improvements off the top of my head.

The question though is whether Nintendo intended customs to actually be taken seriously or more as a fun diversion. If it's the latter then that's most of the design weirdness answered.
 

Foozal

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I'm gonna create a poll of what changes we'd like to make, collect the results as a survey and possibly have it sent to the Apex TO's . Perhaps with a community petition style, we can change the way Apex 2015 can be played!
 

Jaxas

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I'm gonna create a poll of what changes we'd like to make, collect the results as a survey and possibly have it sent to the Apex TO's . Perhaps with a community petition style, we can change the way Apex 2015 can be played!
Please do; this stage list needs to be fixed if absolutely nothing else.
Though the DSR 2.0 needs fixing too, along with the suicide ruling (what happens if Bowser suicides Villager, who mashes jump and survives the suicide move?)
 

ChronoPenguin

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Just an FYI guys, me and a few others talked to the APEX TO's and the Mii Fighter rule has been changed. They can now use either 1111, 2222, or 3333. It just hasn't been updated in the rules yet.

2222 Brawler and 3333 Gunner are viable characters.
Lol the most unnecessary complex bans.
Should just allow the mix.

You're too hard on Piston its a fine move in its own right, hell Brawlers are too hard on Soaring Axe Kick in general.
I could work with any Up special, im just not going into work with Head on assault since it doesn't do anything. 2222 is going to win by default since its the most complete set followed by 1111. 3333 has Headache and Exploding side kick which are trash. Foot Flurry and Piston being alright in their own right.
It is nice however that some headway was made. Hopefully Paletuna will get her kit access so she might possible get some more realistic representation. Gunner's 1111 set is fine relative to any other homogeneous combination.
I'm pleased for progress regardless.
 
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Zelder

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For God's sake, what is up with 2 stock? It's terrible! No chance for exciting come backs when the match is set at two stocks!
 

Foozal

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For God's sake, what is up with 2 stock? It's terrible! No chance for exciting come backs when the match is set at two stocks!
Fill out the survey in the OP and have your voice heard!
 

shapular

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Nintendo, patch Smash to be able to unlock all customs. Leave equipment to be unlockable.
Man, can't you just, like, use projection magic to summon custom moves or something?

I think some people are interpreting the "no stalling" clause as "no camping". I don't think it means that, but the "excessive unwillingness to engage the opponent" phrase is pretty vague. Does that mean no M2K/Zero-style air camping (which I don't think is a thing in Smash 4 but the rule applies to all games), or platform camping a la Westballz vs. Armada from TBH4, or plain old planking, or something else? Regardless, standard camping (with projectiles and such) is still engaging your opponent, so I think the rule means more simply running away.

OP, did you post your survey on Reddit? They're pretty good at getting lots of people to fill out surveys from what I've seen.
 

HeroMystic

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I think some people are interpreting the "no stalling" clause as "no camping". I don't think it means that, but the "excessive unwillingness to engage the opponent" phrase is pretty vague. Does that mean no M2K/Zero-style air camping (which I don't think is a thing in Smash 4 but the rule applies to all games), or platform camping a la Westballz vs. Armada from TBH4, or plain old planking, or something else? Regardless, standard camping (with projectiles and such) is still engaging your opponent, so I think the rule means more simply running away.
The stalling rule is not for camping. This is stalling.

When you see stalling it's extremely obvious. Stuff like Westballz's platform camping is just a really strong defensive position and using the power of the clock to pressure Armada into approaching. Planking falls under the same boat.

The rule is left vague so TOs don't have to define every single method of stalling, and therefore rid of any chance of any loopholes.
 
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Luigi player

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Stocks:
2 Stocks is bad and should definitely be stopped as standard as soon as possible.
I could see 3 stocks being a problem for Apex if too many people enter the tournament because it could take way too long, but then I don't get why doubles is played with 3 stock. It makes absolutely zero sense.

Please compare the average used time in a Smash 4 match with all other Smash games.
Smash 64 with 5 stock,
Melee with 4 stock,
Brawl with 3 stock,
Smash4 with 2 stock.

You'll probably see that on average, Smash4 will take the least time by far - since it's only 2 stocks.
Why is it always less and less? It's mostly because of time constraints, and some say it's more entertaining for viewers...

Why is more stocks good? Because it shows more consistent results, making it better for better players which means it's good for competition, because the better one wins more often. If you want random results you shouldn't play competitively.
Also, many Smash4 matches take like 1-3 minutes if they're played with 2 stocks, which is really... really short. You take away the playtime from the players, which it's all about when playing a game.

I never understood any 1 stock / 2 stock hype, even in Brawl. If I enjoyed matches it was much more interesting watching 3 stocks, if I didn't enjoy matches, it wasn't more enjoyable if it's less. There is definitely lost a lot if you can only play against someone for such a short time now.

Why aren't the other games' stock count toned down as well if it's so much more enjoyable?

Stage-clause:
How does that make sense? Why can't you counterpick the same stage if you didn't even win on it? It really makes the stage selection miniscule. Counterpick stages are counterpicks for a reason. They aren't as neutral as the starters, but still "useable".
Someone could ban all the most neutral stages and even if you didn't win on your counterpick you STILL have to go to some other stage you don't even want to choose!? What the hell?
 

Foozal

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Man, can't you just, like, use projection magic to summon custom moves or something?
OP, did you post your survey on Reddit? They're pretty good at getting lots of people to fill out surveys from what I've seen.

Yeah I did...but it seems to be buried deep somewhere...I'll probably repost it again when it's not 2:00AM
 

OnettGirl

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Filled out the survey because that stage list is just...uhg. Why even have a rule where you can't counterpick a stage you've already played on is the whole list is too damn small to begin with . If it's to keep people from spamming their preferred counterpick then that goes agains the whole idea of having a stage be a counterpick, and if it's goal is to get more stage diversity [which is a good thing] we aren't going to be seeing many interesting stages now are we. Suicide rule is also dumb. And I would make an argument that 2 stocks plus shorter time limit makes people more willing to stall and play defensive but everyone knows that argument already. I'm pretty much repeating what other people have said at this point.

I've never been overly huge into the competitive scene outside of locals, and I mostly just lurk around like a little ghost, but I can tell when a TO isn't even trying to explore a game in terms of rules. People, if you want Sm4sh to be any sort of a success you need to experiment and find what works and what doesn't. There's a line between trying to stay relatively safe, and putting a choke hold on a game. That might be a bit extreme but it's the only thing I can come up with at 2:30 in the morning.
 
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Foozal

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I feel like they sort've went like

"Ok we're done the rules for all the smash games!"

"But sir, what about Smash 4"

"Oh yeah...uh..." *Types on computer for 5 minutes* "THERE!"

"But sir..."

"IT'S DONE!"
 

Jaxas

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The stalling rule is not for camping. This is stalling.

When you see stalling it's extremely obvious. Stuff like Westballz's platform camping is just a really strong defensive position and using the power of the clock to pressure Armada into approaching. Planking falls under the same boat.

The rule is left vague so TOs don't have to define every single method of stalling, and therefore rid of any chance of any loopholes.
All right, but what about the case of a Kirby (assuming % lead) VS Fox.
Kirby wants Fox to approach, but Fox is sitting back spamming lasers.
Kirby is just holding down to duck under the lasers, waiting for Fox to approach or to win because he has percent lead.
Does Kirby get DQ'd because Nintendo's servers didn't register a button press he stalling and being non-agressive?

Under the rule as currently stated, yes. The only way he wouldn't is if the Judge/Ref/etc decided not to call him on it.

And that's a problem.
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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Stage list is pretty bad. 3 starters is awful, no Skyloft is awful. I wouldn't mind seeing PS2 and Wuhu in there as well, but picking Delfino and Halberd over Skyloft is completely beyond me.
There's this one part where if you're high you will be killed by the stage (your character collides into the floating island thing that the stage is moving around)


Really wish it was 3 stocks though, ugh... oh well.
 
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HeroMystic

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All right, but what about the case of a Kirby (assuming % lead) VS Fox.
Kirby wants Fox to approach, but Fox is sitting back spamming lasers.
Kirby is just holding down to duck under the lasers, waiting for Fox to approach or to win because he has percent lead.
Does Kirby get DQ'd because Nintendo's servers didn't register a button press he stalling and being non-agressive?

Under the rule as currently stated, yes. The only way he wouldn't is if the Judge/Ref/etc decided not to call him on it.

And that's a problem.
None of that is considered stalling, nor is any of that considered a problem.

why are we discussing stalling
Because for some reason, people think stalling equates to players being defensive.
 

Jigglymaster

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The act of stalling is going to an area where your opponent can't reach you, such as staying under the stage somehow. Things like Jigglypuff's rising pound in the past game, scourging with Metaknight, Sonic's infinite homing attack thing, ect.

If your feet are on the stage, you're not stalling. If your feet are on a platform, you're not stalling. If you keep jumping into the air above the stage, you're not stalling. If you somehow find a way to get so high up into the air above the stage that your opponent can't reach you at all and you don't come down into their reach for a long time, then you're stalling, but I have yet to see something like that possible in this game.
 
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shapular

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All right, but what about the case of a Kirby (assuming % lead) VS Fox.
Kirby wants Fox to approach, but Fox is sitting back spamming lasers.
Kirby is just holding down to duck under the lasers, waiting for Fox to approach or to win because he has percent lead.
Does Kirby get DQ'd because Nintendo's servers didn't register a button press he stalling and being non-agressive?

Under the rule as currently stated, yes. The only way he wouldn't is if the Judge/Ref/etc decided not to call him on it.

And that's a problem.
No, because the rules say that if neither player moves, the losing player is considered to be stalling. I don't know if that would count as stalling anyway.

The act of stalling is going to an area where your opponent can't reach you, such as staying under the stage somehow. Things like Jigglypuff's rising pound in the past game, scourging with Metaknight, Sonic's infinite homing attack thing, ect.

If your feet are on the stage, you're not stalling. If your feet are on a platform, you're not stalling. If you keep jumping into the air above the stage, you're not stalling. If you somehow find a way to get so high up into the air above the stage that your opponent can't reach you at all and you don't come down into their reach for a long time, then you're stalling, but I have yet to see something like that possible in this game.
There used to be a glitch where Yoshi could do that but they patched it out. Has anybody tested if Marth's infinite rising side B on PS2's Flying form is in this game (though PS2 isn't legal so it doesn't really matter)?
 

Teshie U

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The stalling rule is not for camping. This is stalling.

When you see stalling it's extremely obvious. Stuff like Westballz's platform camping is just a really strong defensive position and using the power of the clock to pressure Armada into approaching. Planking falls under the same boat.

The rule is left vague so TOs don't have to define every single method of stalling, and therefore rid of any chance of any loopholes.
This actually isn't stalling. Sonic's opponent actually controls where he goes and most of the cast can still hit him under the stage anyway.

This is a big problem with vague rules. Varying game knowledge can cause people to get DQed for doing something that isn't actually unfair.
 

Radirgy

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I don't agree with not being able to counter pick a stage that has been used already. What I do agree with is not allowing someone to pick the same stage twice, even if they lose it on they should not be able to pick that stage again. I remember a tournament I went to recently, every 2/3 set I played in was FD/Standard Stage/FD, everyone I played against were basically playing rock/paper/scissors for who won first game, in every round but one I ended up losing first game, winning second easily and then clutching 3rd on FD with Marth.
 

ATH_

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I believe that 2 Stock is okay in a case like Apex where they have a limited amount of time, however I do agree that 3 stock is better if the ability to pull off is there.
The stagelist is a bit stricter than it needs to be imo, but it's not a big deal to me. I personally don't like having Castle Siege over some other stages, but that's just my take.

EDIT: Btw, screw Omega stages. They have so many differences it just makes me sad that they completely allowed all of them. I think it's better to keep consistency > laziness, whereas these differences are annoying for some matchups and just stupid when it comes to the grass + foxtrotting/perfpivotting.
 
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ZHMT

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Is going into the KJ64 barrel and launching sideways with Jigglypuff and going back into the barrel repeating over and over never landing on the stage floor again considered stalling/scrooging? I mean technically they should be able to jump into the barrel before you right?
 
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Jaxas

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No, because the rules say that if neither player moves, the losing player is considered to be stalling. I don't know if that would count as stalling anyway.
Ahh, I interpreted that as the player stalling is considered the loser, my bad
 

Hippieslayer

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People need to stop being ****** about custom moves and just take the risky route of having them legal cause it's never gonna get done else.
 

shapular

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EDIT: Btw, screw Omega stages. They have so many differences it just makes me sad that they completely allowed all of them. I think it's better to keep consistency > laziness, whereas these differences are annoying for some matchups and just stupid when it comes to the grass + foxtrotting/perfpivotting.
That's why they're counterpicks. Learn to play on them, and if you don't like them ban them.
 

KeketheBasedCat

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along with the suicide ruling (what happens if Bowser suicides Villager, who mashes jump and survives the suicide move?)
If I understand your post correctly, that scenario would result in Bowser dying and Villager living. Assuming we're talking about both players being on their last stock, that would mean Bowser loses and the suicide rule was never really relevant to that scenario in the first place.
I can't understand any argument aginst the suicide rule. I think it's ridiculous that the game more or less randomizes who survives a suicide move. If you initiated the suicide move, and the opponent got hit by it, then you deserve to win that stock and the opponent deserves to lose it.
I also agree that 3-stock games produce results that are more indicative of who the better player was in that set. However, I think 2-stock games are completely fine. If you aren't able to figure out at least some of your opponent's habits in 2 stocks, then you're not playing very intelligently. I also have trouble understanding the argument that 2-stock games have no capacity for comebacks. In melee it might be different, but as far as I'm concerned, 1 stock is very much a lead in Smash 4. In a 2-stock game, someone winning after previously being at 80% on their last stock while their opponent was at 40% on their first is unquestionably a hype comeback. I think most people don't realize that most of the hype comebacks in Brawl occurred within the frame of each player's last 2 stocks (out of three). For example, take one of the hypest combacks in Brawl history (imo): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7EQzOahzhQ
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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All this anger at the Apex TOs, when in reality it's Nintendo's fault for coming up with a cool idea and then implementing it in such a mindblowingly atrocious way.
It depends how you value unlockables.

Random drops is annoying but then being unlockables at all isn't bad in itself.

~

Oh and this rule set sucks.

Unlike other games suicides are entirely predictable and you can plan for it.

Bowser wins just cause? Yeah **** that, when I help people TO this will never happen at any event I host come spring.

That and I'll make customs legal, becauae with a 3DS it's insanely easy to set up with the custom project. Mii get customs but limited to 1111, 2222, 3333? Why if you can set that up why not allow people make set-ups? Then none for palatena?

And more legal stages and starters, so limiting for no reason.

Already was wavering on going but u refuse to support an awful rule set like this.
 

Djent

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I'm okay with 2 or 3 stocks, but people seem to be giving mediocre-to-bad objections to 2.

Objection: "But Brawl has 3 stocks!"
Response: So? Brawl's ruleset is horrible and leads to boring scenarios where you know who's going to win, but the set still drags on for 6 minutes. If a game is closer in speed to Brawl (but still faster), it's not unreasonable to be leery of 3 stocks. It might be fast enough to run 3, but maybe not. Why err on the side of making the game horribly boring?

Objection: 2-stocks introduces more variance!
Objection: A more legitimate concern, but understand that there are seriously diminishing returns for decreasing variance by increasing the stock count. The person who takes the first stock usually takes the match because being down a stock (or even just down some %) puts you in a position where you have to approach. Even in a game with stronger approaches than in Brawl, this is kind of a big deal (especially for keep-away characters). You might think rage can help make up this deficit, and it can, but it can also help someone tack on additional damage before they lose the stock lead. So it's not clear to me that the reduction in variance is worth the increase in stock-count (although it might be).

I'd honestly love to see 1-stock Bo5 get tried for this game at some point, but that's probably unrealistic. Between 2 and 3 stocks, I slightly prefer 2, but I'd mostly just prefer people make better objections to it if we're going to run with 3.
 

Jigglymaster

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That and I'll make customs legal, becauae with a 3DS it's insanely easy to set up with the custom project. Mii get customs but limited to 1111, 2222, 3333? Why if you can set that up why not allow people make set-ups? Then none for palatena?
The reason why they're limited to 1111, 2222, and 3333 is because its technically creating 3 characters out of 1. If they were allowed to use any combination of their moves, they'd be using customs at a non-custom tournament. That's how we're looking at it. I agree though, Palutena should get the same treatment as the Mii Fighters. It's just the fact that we have to turn Customization ON for that and the rules begin to get a little wonky.

As for 3DS transferring, that means the APEX TO's have to have a 3DS that has everything unlocked and have all the 2222 and 3333 set up. For 52 characters that takes like 10 minutes to transfer everything. Do that for 30 setups and thats 300 minutes passed. It doesn't seem very plausible unless we try to look at it in another way or something...
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Why not make it personal responsibility or have people help out with it on a larger scale?

Have people bring WiiUs with everything unlocked and then go from there?

Like, I kinda get it with release it's hard to have it all unlocked but the 3DS solution isn't that hard.
 

Jigglymaster

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Well over time that argument is going to constantly get stronger and stronger for sure. I can't say for sure at Apex 2015. But I definitely feel like that customs will be a thing in 2016 or at other big tournaments over 2015. People will eventually unlock everything if they play enough.
 
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Yoshi Kirishima

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From what I've been watching, Smash 4's 2 stock games are often 1-2 minutes long, faster than Melee's 4 stocks. Brawl's average 3 stock game is around 6 minutes. Really, I do not see a problem with 3 stock Smash 4 games.
 

san.

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I'm expecting an Ike wins when he aethercides rule by Apex 2016.
 

ParanoidDrone

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As for 3DS transferring, that means the APEX TO's have to have a 3DS that has everything unlocked and have all the 2222 and 3333 set up. For 52 characters that takes like 10 minutes to transfer everything. Do that for 30 setups and thats 300 minutes passed. It doesn't seem very plausible unless we try to look at it in another way or something...
I don't think this argument holds water. Do they mean to suggest that not a single person on the Apex crew, or even a friend thereof, has a copy of Smash 3DS with all custom moves unlocked? I did that within a month on maybe 5-10 hours/week of work, and streamers have proven it's possible to do within a week if you have enough time to spare. It's not hard, just tedious, since 3DS biases the unlocks toward the character you're using and the home button trick works a bit better. (There's a small delay before you can press it again on the Wii U which hampers the ability to inch through the roulette.) Hell, there's even a person on these very forums (whose name I can't recall, apologies) who has a standing offer to anyone with a physical 3DS copy to mail it to him and he'll use Powersave to unlock all customs before sending it right back.

On top of that, it's perfectly possible to set up at least a few Wii U consoles in advance if they have physical access to them.
 
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Foozal

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In terms of customs, i'm fine with them being disallowed for Apex 2015...but ONLY Apex 2015. It's still early enough into the game's life span that getting customs integrated easily is still finicky (Yes, Standard Custom Moveset project is great, and hopefully this is where sm4sh leads to).

This is the first MAJOR tournament for Smash 4, it's understandable that TO's don't want to deal with customs...however if they continue to ignore it for future tournaments, then we'll have a problem...

Hopefully we can at least get the stage list changed up a bit and 2-stock converted to 3-stock
 
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