Apex 2015 Ruleset is out! Survey inside!

[TheReflexWonder]

I can confirm that opponents can jump after a Bowser Forward-B to avoid immediate death (and recover if their recovery is good enough).

Since it is impossible for characters to die anytime after the game is over ("Game!"), it's basically impossible to tell whether or not people jumped out of Bowser Forward-B. I will test ROB's U-Throw later today, but it seems to be the same way. That logic could also be applied to Ike Up-B offstage, Swallowcides, and Wario Neutral-B.

So...That just leaves Ganondorf Forward-B, which already awards him the win. This rule doesn't solve anything.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Right. No sudden death is forcing the losing player to forfeit a math that is technically still in progress (not unlike anti-stalling rules of all flavors, except LGL), while suicide rulings are literally retconing a declared winner.

Idea: In the event that a suicide move results in sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move shall be considered the winner?

I honestly don't know if any suicide moves do that anyway so the whole thing may be moot. I don't like retconning the results screen, really.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Idea: In the event that a suicide move results in sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move shall be considered the winner?

I honestly don't know if any suicide moves do that anyway so the whole thing may be moot. I don't like retconning the results screen, really.

As far as I can tell, no "traditional" suicide moves go to Sudden Death in Smash 4 when used that way. Someone wins or someone loses.

EDIT: Someone told me that Bowser goes to Sudden Death via Forward-B on certain stages. I guess that needs to be tested.

 

[OnettGirl]

As far as I can tell, no "traditional" suicide moves go to Sudden Death in Smash 4 when used that way. Someone wins or someone loses.

EDIT: Someone told me that Bowser goes to Sudden Death via Forward-B on certain stages. I guess that needs to be tested.

This is true. The person [I don't know smashboard names, apologies] who made this video showcasing it created a list of the most likely legal stages where it goes to sudden death in the description of the video. Though that's not all the stages. I'm not sure if there's been any other conversation in it, I don't normally frequent the Bowser discussion. I just figured i'd share the video here for anyone who hadn't seen it.

 

[shapular]

Kirbycide goes to sudden death if he walks into a walkoff while his opponent is inhaled. Probably not a big deal since he could just spit them into the blast zone instead.

 

[Radirgy]

When will we know if the rules will be getting changed.

 

[Foozal]

When will we know if the rules will be getting changed.

We won't know if it'll be changed, we have to keep pushing in order to have the ruleset change into a better competitive experience

 

[Piford]

They really need to add Skyloft, Wuhu, and PS2 to the stage list. Making it FLSS would be the best but at least 5 starters is necessary.

 

[Thinkaman]

Changing the rules of Apex itself isn't the real goal, nice as that would be. The main thing is making sure the voices are heard.

 

[Darkjolly]

Wuhu island >>>> Halberd

 

[HiNiTe]

This is really typical. The whole reason 2 stocks were even used in the first place was because some people didn't know if 3-stock were suitable towards smaller tournaments when the game first released, when it was more slow-paced. Not only that, but it's completely illogical for Brawl, of all games, to keep 3-stocks (yes, tradition thing, but my point still stands) and Smash 4, the newest game, only gets 2-stocks. If Brawl, the slowest game of all of them, gets to keep 3-stocks while Smash 4 doesn't, then I really don't understand the logic behind this decision other than the fact most tournaments right now use 2 stocks. Apex is the largest Smash tournmanet of the year, time constraints should not be much of an issue at this point. Smash 4 needs 3-stocks at Apex 2015, the metagame is somewhat faster now and it's better for the players; the spectators should come second, not first, sorry to say.

Now the stage list. Now I expected a few stages not to be on here, but THREE starters? I don't get it. Town & City may be redundant with Smashville as a starter but it's still perfectly fine, and Lylat is a starter in Brawl... BRAWL. And it's a PORT. There are absolutely NO changes to Lylat from Brawl except the textures... what is the reason behind this? And where is Skyloft and Wuhu? If Delfino is allowed, so should these two, especially when Skyloft is somewhat more tame than Delfino and Wuhu's supposed "game-changing glitch" that went viral among the community is practically impossible to recreate, there is no objective reason to deny these stages.

As for customs, I was always open for their inclusion, but the fact they are unlocked in such a stupid way made me lose hope. However, after AA's attempt to regulate custom moves, I'm once again open to using his proposal. Palutena and Mii Fighters getting their 1111/2222/3333 setups are nice, but it is NOT a compromise; or at least it's a very ****ty one. Though I can understand the reasoning behind it, if AA's system can get implemented, the whole problem with unlocking customs is gone, they can be implemented.

Apex is the definitive Smash tournament, and Smash 4 is a new game. Whatever rules are used at Apex will most likely become a standard for any to come afterwards. We can see that now as we have to deal with ****ing Brawl having 3 stocks but Smash 4 has 2. Ideally, fix the stage list, it's awful. Next would be 3-stocks and then ultimately find some compromise for customs. Smash 4 could be a great and more unique and divierised game if we all get this. I just hope the Apex staff actually, y'know, reads this ****.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Any word on controller options? I know at Xanadu the Gamepad is banned, presumably because you can only have one per console.

 

[shapular]

Any word on controller options? I know at Xanadu the Gamepad is banned, presumably because you can only have one per console.

I believe the rulebook said all controllers are legal, but macros and turbo can't be used.

 

[Anthonio WIlliams]

It should be 3 stocks. (i'd be fine if it turns out to be 2 stocks)
no miis
and no (any type) of customization for tournaments, really?

 

[Hippieslayer]

It should be 3 stocks.
no miis
and no (any type) of customization for tournaments, really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

I like 2 stocks for singles and 3 for doubles as doubles dying is a little easier however I dislike the lack of customs and 1111 requirement for miis (however I approve of their legality) also why are we banning CONTROLLERS? I've seen people who have used both gamepad/3DS in tourney.

 

[OnettGirl]

I like 2 stocks for singles and 3 for doubles as doubles dying is a little easier however I dislike the lack of customs and 1111 requirement for miis (however I approve of their legality) also why are we banning CONTROLLERS? I've seen people who have used both gamepad/3DS in tourney.

You can only use 1 gamepad per system, and while it's probably rare in locals, at a big tourney like apex there is the chance you can run into 2 gamepad users which would be impossible to do. And then that would cause arguments over who gets the gamepad and can lead to a lot of unhappy smashers. It's just easier to say no to the gamepad outright. Besides, the pro controller is pretty much a gamepad without a screen in the middle, gamepad people will just have to get used to one of those.

I can't speak on the 3DS as a controller though, i've never used it so I have no clue on that one.

 

[19_]

KJ64 is banned in singles as said on page 15. Smash 4's stage list is now just like Brawl's with less starters and Yoshi's/Pokemon switched with Duck hunt/T&C. So much for trying to distance this game from Brawl, and three starters only make it worse.

Does anyone disagree? I think stalling is not problem on this stage at all its too small.

 

[thehard]

KJ64 is banned in singles as said on page 15. Smash 4's stage list is now just like Brawl's with less starters and Yoshi's/Pokemon switched with Duck hunt/T&C. So much for trying to distance this game from Brawl, and three starters only make it worse.

Does anyone disagree? I think stalling is not problem on this stage at all its too small.

Stalling is banned anyway, so I don't see why KJ64 is now doubles-only.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Just a general thought that lots of other people have already said. The tournament organizers are way too boring and conservative, and are setting a really bad precedent. Skyloft, Wuhu, and KJ64 should all be legal stages. Town & City and Lylat should be starter stages.

Hopefully tournament organizers in the future are less lazy and make more of a legitimate effort to include custom moves.

I cannot emphasize this enough. VARIETY IS GOOD FOR THE GAME. A game gets boring when you see the same stuff over and over again. Limiting stage and moves options will ultimately make this a far more boring spectator's game.

I hope these issues are corrected in the future.

 

[shapular]

Did the ruleset literally just get worse? We lost a stage and still have two bans. At least the suicide rule got slightly better and DSR is back.

 

[elmike]

As for 3DS transferring, that means the APEX TO's have to have a 3DS that has everything unlocked and have all the 2222 and 3333 set up. For 52 characters that takes like 10 minutes to transfer everything. Do that for 30 setups and thats 300 minutes passed. It doesn't seem very plausible unless we try to look at it in another way or something...

One question: Who brings the wiiU systems that wil be used and when? Does The people bringing the wiiUs are not familiar with each other? Because the problem you stated seems to have a very simple solution (make the setups before the event). But maybe thats impossible for some reason?
It would be nice if someone could explain why doing this is so difficult, since spending 5 extra hours for allowing to play a better smash4 game is not a lot IMO.

I can't say for sure at Apex 2015. But I definitely feel like that customs will be a thing in 2016 or at other big tournaments over 2015. People will eventually unlock everything if they play enough.

PLEASE try to make it a thing for 2015. Apex is a huge event, and the ruleset will surely be the reference point for many other tournaments (also the suicide thing is just weird as is... it needs more explanation)

 

[Jaxas]

Did the ruleset literally just get worse? We lost a stage and still have two bans. At least the suicide rule got slightly better and DSR is back.

This is a huge problem, and one that I didn't actually realize until you pointed it out.
If we didn't need to get this fixed before, we sure as heck do now...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Suicide rule was updated in that document to only count Ganondorf, Bowser, Kirby, and D3, so at least we don't have Aethercides everywhere.

But yes, this ruleset got even more terrible. It also does us zero good to comment on how bad it is for the tournament and the community here. We really need to find the best way to discuss the issues in a place where the APEX organizers frequent, and then basically bomb it with a discussion about the issues. And basically shout down the people who support such a bad stage list/ruleset. All while still being polite and civil. Basically force the TOs to see a massive conversation that they have no choice but to engage in, but one they can't just brush off as being being either small or rude and thus something to ignore.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm feeling very doom and gloom about this again, but I need a reality check. Is the Apex ruleset likely to become the de facto standard for all Smash 4 tournaments from here on out? Will other major tournaments (Evo?) fall in step or try to do their own thing based on community reactions? What about smaller ones like Xanadu? What are the odds that Apex 2016 will revisit the rules?

EDIT:

Suicide rule was updated in that document to only count Ganondorf, Bowser, Kirby, and D3, so at least we don't have Aethercides everywhere.

But yes, this ruleset got even more terrible. It also does us zero good to comment on how bad it is for the tournament and the community here. We really need to find the best way to discuss the issues in a place where the APEX organizers frequent, and then basically bomb it with a discussion about the issues. And basically shout down the people who support such a bad stage list/ruleset. All while still being polite and civil. Basically force the TOs to see a massive conversation that they have no choice but to engage in, but one they can't just brush off as being being either small or rude and thus something to ignore.

And where is this public forum we can discuss Apex in the presence of the organizers?

 

[Foozal]

Well we can always just move the discussion from this thread to the facebook page, their bound to see it if we have a whole lot of users bashing the rules on their own page

https://www.facebook.com/apex.series?fref=ts

 

[Piford]

So if I suicide kill as R.O.B. or any other character (I think Meta Knight and Charizard work) on Smashville then my opponent wins?

 

[shapular]

Well we can always just move the discussion from this thread to the facebook page, their bound to see it if we have a whole lot of users bashing the rules on their own page

https://www.facebook.com/apex.series?fref=ts

You're probably better off trying the event page: https://www.facebook.com/events/301539433342834/

 

[Pazzo.]

I can't believe that customs aren't allowed.

I understand they may not have a 3DS or Wii U with everything unlocked, but I'm sure they could have found a way to get one.

I'm fine with two stocks though, but that stage list... *shudders*

 

[Radirgy]

If people are not happy with Apex rules then don't use them in your own tournaments in the future. Tournaments playing copy cat with the rules is something I wish they would stop doing on occasion. Even Melee had Mute City legal until like 2008/9, Smash 4 won't even be 3 months old come Apex and the stage list has already been cut down that much? We can't allow Skyloft being banned to become the standard, Skyloft is the closest thing this game has to Pokemon Stadium.

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm pretty sad customs are not on as I believe the majority of people do want them. Apex is the first big tournament and is very important to the community so by them not having customs on it could hurt not only the competitive scene by help limiting it but also the viewers as well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm pretty sad customs are not on as I believe the majority of people do want them. Apex is the first big tournament and is very important to the community so by them not having customs on it could hurt not only the competitive scene by help limiting it but also the viewers as well.

Exactly.

Those of you with Facebook (or don't have a parent who's job includes knowing how terrible Facebook security is and thus making you forever suspicious of Facebook and refusing to use it), go make comments exactly like that sort of one on the event page there. If you want any hope of anything changing, it needs to be an absolutely monstrous pile of posts there talking about this. While mentioning the Standard Custom Moveset option in many of them. Keep it civil, talk about the stage list and 3 stocks as well, make your points and opinions known. Talk about setting the standards for future tournaments, how interested stream views are with only 2 stocks/no customs/tiny stage list.

Do more than that actually, bring it over to other parts of the site. Character boards, groups, ladders: get the civil flood of posts going.

 

[M15t3R E]

There's still time for the Apex 2015 ruleset to change, although I would not count on it. At the very least, we could push for a streamed customs legal side tournament in which people can bring their 3DS to upload their custom movesets.

 

[Pazx]

So if I suicide kill as R.O.B. or any other character (I think Meta Knight and Charizard work) on Smashville then my opponent wins?

If you're talking about their potential suicide throws neither MK nor Kirby can do it on SV, not sure about Charizard.

Not impressed with KJ64's ban, very happy with the team colours rule though.

 

[Piford]

If you're talking about their potential suicide throws neither MK nor Kirby can do it on SV, not sure about Charizard.

Not impressed with KJ64's ban, very happy with the team colours rule though.

When the platform moves away then the grabs have no where to land. I haven't tested it too much but I know its possible as R.O.B. because I do it often when I'm a stock ahead.

 

[Pazx]

When the platform moves away then the grabs have no where to land. I haven't tested it too much but I know its possible as R.O.B. because I do it often when I'm a stock ahead.

MK and Charizard's throws for example sorta just bounce as if they hit the ground where the platform was originally. As far as I'm aware only ROB has a suicide throw.

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

So much salt and complaining. 2 Stock is great, skyloft is bad and was a good decision to leave a stage with platforms without ledges and pits that force a stale mate til it changes out of this. DSR is great with having 9 stages in singles and 10 in doubles. Win going to the initiator of a suicide move is great and makes sense as with ledge mechanics they cant camp on the edge and will easily be punished with little to no fear after they miss their move. Castle siege seems like the only odd one to me due to size. but considering you cant jab lock someone after 3 hits and there are no regrab chain grabs, i can see the reason behind putting this one in, although i think every rosalina will go to this stage after halbred gets banned.

You have a month left to practice these rule sets after the game on the wii u has barely been out for more than a month. Totally a reasonable amount of time to get the feel of all the stages and the stocks.

Gl and see you guys at APEX 2015!

 

[Asdioh]

I watched a SmashU stream for a little while yesterday (Shofu and some other guys were in it) and I mentioned how Apex having 2 stocks for Smash4 while Brawl had 3 stocks was disappointing. They could not fathom why I would be upset about this. The main justifications I heard were:
-All the important tournaments have used 2 stocks
-Brawl has less entrants so it's fine for it to have more stocks
-They didn't think time constraints were one of the motivating factors

Am I wrong in thinking that 3 stocks is the most desired ruleset for Smash4? At least it seems to be that way on Smashboards, and Smashboards is where most tourneygoers come from...
Anyway, the first argument is the scary part. The fact that people view precedents as the ideal means that Apex will, in fact, be used a lot for arguments for future tournaments. So we'll be looking at 2 stocks with conservative stage list and no customs for quite a while

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I was watching something like a Xanadu, maybe a different tournament, a few weeks back, maybe over a month, and D1 was in the chat. He said he liked 2 stock Smash 4 as it makes the game more spectator friendly, something that could greatly increase the longevity of the game as an eSport. Maybe this has something to do with it?

At the end of the day, to me at least, it seems Brawl is 3 stock just because it has been that way for so long, and to change that would cause an uproar. However, whoever is behind the scenes at Apex might be gunning for 2 stocks because of the viewer aspect. Time could also be a factor, but maybe not THE factor.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen many 3 stock tournaments aside from Sky's. This could also be a reason.

 

[C_Mill24]

No Mii Fighters? That's disappointing.