Apex 2013 Smash 64 January 11-13th, 2013 Singles Bracket is now up

[clubbadubba]

That's a stupid idea, It's not even that much of an advantage.

1) But.... you do agree that it is an advantage? Why should we allow an unfair advantage like that when it is so easily preventable?

2) I think its a pretty big advantage. Being able to break out of combos earlier than you would be able to with an n64 controller means that instead of having to win the "land the first hit battle" with a person 10-15 times in a match, you now have to do it 15-20 times (pulling these numbers out of my *** btw, but point is the keyboard number is bigger than the n64 controller number). It basically gives the keyboard player extra chances. If we were having a free throw competition, it wouldn't be very fair to have you shoot 15, and me shoot 10, and see who makes the most, would it?

 

[cmu6eh]

Why not ban original n64 controllers and mandate everyone use Nintendo approved Hori pads?

 

[prisonchild]

i've never been in a real tourney but i'm with you clubba

 

[The Star King]

Why not ban original n64 controllers and mandate everyone use Nintendo approved Hori pads?

You can't be serious...

 

[tacos]

clubba ur dumb.

 

[clubbadubba]

^^what star king said. If you pick one controller to use on console, it would have to be the original n64 controller. Why? Because its the original. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think hori's were around in 1999 when this game was released.

tacos ur dum. I HEYT YOU

tacos stop being dumb

 

[tacos]

clubba stop being dumb

 

[B Link]

I'd love to see KBs in tournies ROFL

 

[Battlecow]

Clubba: that's pretty dumb.

1. hori pads do not give an advantage. You trade slightly better DI for harder ff->uairs and stuff. Firo, for example, uses a hori with some characters and an n64 controller with others, because each has its own advantages

2. we'd be the first game to pull **** like that. You really want to alienate a bunch of the good players from a community this small, when even the big games have the (much more reasonable) "If you're butthurt about it being advantageous, switch to it" attitude?

 

[clubbadubba]

Clubba: that's pretty dumb.

1. hori pads do not give an advantage. You trade slightly better DI for harder ff->uairs and stuff. Firo, for example, uses a hori with some characters and an n64 controller with others, because each has its own advantages

2. we'd be the first game to pull **** like that. You really want to alienate a bunch of the good players from a community this small, when even the big games have the (much more reasonable) "If you're butthurt about it being advantageous, switch to it" attitude?

1. Yes they do. Some techs might be easier, some might be harder, but in the end they can all be done. Hori maxed out DI just cannot be done on n64 controller, hence advantage.

2. Not really concerned with what other games do. I think its more unreasonable to force the original players of the game to switch to a different controller than to ask those who learned the game on pc 7-8 years later to switch. Game was made for the n64 controller, tournies should be played with the n64 controller. This isn't arcade fighting where the games were made for consoles and arcade sticks, or the wii where games were made for both the wii and gamecube controllers. At the time of the games creation, it was n64 controller, and some of these other controllers change the game A LOT.

 

[TANK64]

Clubba is right about everything.

 

[Battlecow]

1. Yes they do. Some techs might be easier, some might be harder, but in the end they can all be done. Hori maxed out DI just cannot be done on n64 controller, hence advantage.

2. Not really concerned with what other games do. I think its more unreasonable to force the original players of the game to switch to a different controller than to ask those who learned the game on pc 7-8 years later to switch. Game was made for the n64 controller, tournies should be played with the n64 controller. This isn't arcade fighting where the games were made for consoles and arcade sticks, or the wii where games were made for both the wii and gamecube controllers. At the time of the games creation, it was n64 controller, and some of these other controllers change the game A LOT.

The hori minipad was released before smash 64 was, dude. So yeah, the game was made for all nintendo-licensed 64 controllers, including the hori.

I've seen people DI harder on the original controller than any hori DI you've ever seen, guaranteed. Given how little effort you (and 95% of other smashers, myself included) put into maximizing DI, I'm a little bit surprised that as soon as you get the opportunity to make a bunch of your opponents bad at the game through bull****, DI is suddenly a huge turning point.

Basically it comes down to whether you're a terrible person or not. If you really want to get a competitive advantage by crippling the skill of a ****load of other players, go ahead with this. Or you could not be a prick. The "advantage" we're getting is totally available to you if you want it, and it's also not really an advantage at all.

 

[kys]

It's about leveling the playing field. I agree that everyone should have to use the same equipment for everything.

As much as I hate analogies from smash to things like CHESS and SPORTS, I'm going to do it.

There's no way a league like the NFL would allow teams to use smaller football, for example, that would be slightly easier to catch and throw. It doesn't matter how big of a difference or an advantage it gives or whatever the pros and cons are. What matters is that there is a difference.

Tacos and battlecow are just mad because they use horis and gamecube controllers. I use xbox 360, just to clarify that I'm not biased.

 

[tacos]

>people typing my name with a capital t

I am not mad. I was just messing around with clubba...
imo if i were clubba or any other turney hori hater then id just avoid playing people using horis.
simply put deal with it or gtfo.

 

[kys]

You use capitals at the beginning of a sentence, noob.

I know you were messing around with clubba. I was messing around with you.

You gtfo.

Luv

 

[tacos]

rofl kys
don't worry i still luv u

 

[Battlecow]

It's about leveling the playing field. I agree that everyone should have to use the same equipment for everything.

As much as I hate analogies from smash to things like CHESS and SPORTS, I'm going to do it.

There's no way a league like the NFL would allow teams to use smaller football, for example, that would be slightly easier to catch and throw. It doesn't matter how big of a difference or an advantage it gives or whatever the pros and cons are. What matters is that there is a difference.

Tacos and battlecow are just mad because they use horis and gamecube controllers. I use xbox 360, just to clarify that I'm not biased.

Lame comparison.

Here's an actually accurate one:

some baseball players use bats made out of a kind of wood other than ash, and it's a little better in some ways but worse in others. Any player who wants to can use it.

Would the MLB let them? Oh, wait, they totally do.

But if we're following clubba's argument, other sports don't enter into it. And if we are going to use other-game metaphors, shouldn't we use the ones that aren't completely, totally irrelevant--other fighting games, where multiple types of controller are legal?

Can't believe people are actually trying to pull this ****

 

[The Star King]

Clubba is right about everything.

So you agree with him about banning Horis now? Because I'm cool (relatively) with that opinion then. My problem was with you saying we should ban KBs for DI, but not Horis when they are also ~as bad (if you can **** it up).

 

[Battlecow]

Horis aren't as bad as keyboards DI-wise

tapping one key over and over <<< shaking a stick as fast as possible

you should see miyagi's KB di, lol

 

[The Star King]

Horis aren't as bad as keyboards DI-wise

tapping one key over and over <<< shaking a stick as fast as possible

Wut? I guess you meant >>>?

I don't think that's true but I can't prove anything, blarg

 

[Olikus]

Hori should be legal. Thats all folks.

 

[ballin4life]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea of banning certain controllers. Just need to figure out what makes a given controller worthy of a ban.

Otherwise I'm going to bring my turbo controller with a pre-programed shine break button

 

[clubbadubba]

Well if hori's came out before smash 64, then yea they should be legal. I tried to do some quick research at work on that before posting earlier and couldn't find anything, which is why I put the tentative "could be wrong" in there. So yea, game was designed for n64 controller and hori minipad, and starting with the inferior option is my (and every other n64 controller player's) mistake. That I can live with.

What is not cool is introducing a new controller, for which the game was NOT designed, into the console metagame 13 years down the line , and saying switch over if you don't like the inherent disadvantage.

Oh and I have a differnt "actually accurate" metaphor, except this time I used an example that works for my side of the argument!

The MLB doesn't allow players to use metal bats because they hit the ball too hard and too far.

Which is why other games and sports don't matter too much in this discussion, because these kinds of decisions are unique to the particular type of competition and must be handled on a case by case basis.

The "advantage" we're getting is totally available to you if you want it

Barry Bonds would say the same thing about steroids. Point?

it's also not really an advantage at all

As star king once said (quasi quote, feel free to clarify if I misunderstood you sk) "I purposefully nerf my DI when I play on keyboard because its so ridiculous and it makes me feel bad"

 

[Battlecow]

talking about horis here, not keyboards. Keyboard DI is different than hori or three-handle.

There's a difference between some sort of macro or program and a different controller. As long as all the buttons correspond to normal n64 inputs, I don't see a problem

Clubba: you seem like you're really on the lookout for a great john, but this just isn't it. You're drastically overestimating the difference that a hori's DI makes, and drastically underestimating the difference that being able to do fastfall uairs and similar techs brings. The argument that they're just making things easier isn't really kosher; a hori just makes DI (very slightly) easier.

Anyways, glad you see the light but I'm a little bit disturbed at the idea that you would have happily refused to play a solid portion of the community over a technicality like which nintendo product was released first

 

[Izuhu]

Why people just can't use the original controller. I'm aware of the analog stick problem, but there's fixes for that. I don't see what's so hard about buying a n64 controller w/ a tight joystick and using it "only" for tourney purposes that way the stick won't go bad so quick. And I honestly have played on a loose joystick before and in no way has it hindered me from playing good.

Plus are horis even legal..

 

[Alex Strife]

what is the issue with hori's ?

Just because something is released after a game does not mean its bad.

I mean we might as well never buy any new sticks from companies LOL

 

[LLDL]

Why people just can't use the original controller. I'm aware of the analog stick problem, but there's fixes for that. I don't see what's so hard about buying a n64 controller w/ a tight joystick and using it "only" for tourney purposes that way the stick won't go bad so quick. And I honestly have played on a loose joystick before and in no way has it hindered me from playing good.

Plus are horis even legal..

Yes, they are

 

[asianaussie]

if it plugs into the n64, let people use it

hype for keyboard > n64 adapters

 

[clubbadubba]

The difference between whether a hori came out before or after the game is important. If the game wasn't designed to be played on it, it shouldn't be legal if it gives a distinct advantage. Whether it was part of the original game concept is not a "technicality."

However it WAS designed to be played on it, so yea there would be no reason to ban them. Oh btw bcow where did you find that hori's have been around that long? Just curious because I couldn't find anything earlier.

Keyboard is what I'm much more concerned about. Its just a different game with keyboards involved. @Alex, the issue with alternate controllers (at least my issue) is mainly the DI advantage some of them have over the original controllers. It changes the game from "don't get hit" to "getting hit is not as big of a deal anymore."

 

[The Star King]

why are you concerned about keyboards when keyboard -> n64 adapters do not exist

just saying

 

[Izuhu]

if it plugs into the n64, let people use it

hype for keyboard > n64 adapters

No, that's too vague of a statement. Because now your approving the use modded controllers. Correction

*If it plugs into the n64 and has no significant advantages, let people use it.

That's better...

Plus keyboard to n64 is possible but its non-existent. There's no reason to be hype about it when its not even in the making lol

 

[asianaussie]

my point is, if somebody brings a keyboard that can actually plug into a n64 and function for gaming, they are awesome

if someone actually stops them from using it, that person needs to be slapped hard, preferably with a keyboard of some description.

 

[RickySSB]

Keyboard :OO

 

[kys]

I was just watching some Big House 2 vids and I heard Lovage commentating. He's pretty good. And he used to play 64 and stuffs.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

s2j was into 64 before melee iirc.

 

[C.SDK]

Lovage is really good at commentating. Though I think s2j has more in-game knowledge than Lovage so it'd be an interesting duo. s2j with his in-game knowledge and Lovage for his good commentary skills (and it's also a plus that he knows a bit about 64 too). I think s2j can provide some decent commentary as well since he knows a bit of 64's history. I also liked Sensei's commentary on Apex 2012.

 

[asianaussie]

s2j was good at 64 but got sick of it and quit, since he said the game at a very high level is boring or something

lovage also used to play, i think he moved onto melee full time though

 

[C.SDK]

s2j was good at 64 but got sick of it and quit, since he said the game at a very high level is boring or something

lovage also used to play, i think he moved onto melee full time though

I agree with s2j. Actually, he told me more exactly what's wrong with 64 at a tournament recently and I completely agree with what he said.

 

[clubbadubba]

my point is, if somebody brings a keyboard that can actually plug into a n64 and function for gaming, they are awesome

if someone actually stops them from using it, that person needs to be slapped hard, preferably with a keyboard of some description.

Provided the blow to my face would break said keyboard and prevent it from being used, I'd take one for the team

 

[LLDL]

Because it is possible, even though they don't yet exist.

for example, there does exist a gamecube > n64 adapter

and with a little reconfiguration, I'm sure someone could get this working on that adapter

The peripheral is really just a gamecube controller with extra buttons, the adapter already recognizes gamecube controllers. All a person would have to do is reprogram the adapter to recognize those inputs, the player would preconfigure his setup, and there you go. Would be kind of expensive for this particular solution though.

I see no reason why a normal keyboard wouldn't work though, if raphnet or someone were to build an adapter. USB keyboard probably wouldn't work, but a ps2 keyboard should. Would be like building any other adapter.

As for it making the game so different that you would forfeit, I don't think that such a thing will exist before Apex 2013, so you don't have to worry about that. As for horis, and gamecube controllers and other adapters - have at it!