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Apex 2012 SSB64 Event

G

Glöwworm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
1,417
Location
CA
What kind of 'lag' do we see in teams on console? If we were to to somehow measure the FPS would it be 60fps? Because I know that the FPS lag in emulator makes the sound choppy and on console, it seems like the gameplay is only affected by that. It's kind of confusing to me so naturally I would ask an equally as confusing question lol.
 
SSB64-Jel

SSB64-Jel

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
1,039
Location
Seattle, WA
Yo so I did some talking with Kefit about this and we think we may go. But would like to know if anyone lives by this or drives that can take us to some cool things to see? or maybe somewhere good to eat. I dont mind thowing gas money at who ever is down for this. Hit me up on PM or reply back to this.
 
S

Sempiternity

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
1,695
Location
Connecticut
Glöwworm said:
What kind of 'lag' do we see in teams on console? If we were to to somehow measure the FPS would it be 60fps? Because I know that the FPS lag in emulator makes the sound choppy and on console, it seems like the gameplay is only affected by that. It's kind of confusing to me so naturally I would ask an equally as confusing question lol.
Click to expand...
Kinda technical **** heading your way; watch out!

Ballin's right; the framerate does drop below 60fps. As for sound, there is an explanation for that. I'm not entirely sure how the sound is processed on the N64 console itself, but I assume it's some sort of "timestretch" method. The same stuff that's used in the PCSX2 emulator. Basically, it syncs the sound up with the gamespeed, which eliminates the cracks and pops you hear when the emulator lags. The choppiness you're hearing is the sound playing in real time, but since the framerate is not perfectly 60, the audio has to stop every once in a while to let the video catch up. With timestretch, the audio is constantly refreshing to match the video speed.

This is pretty damn hardware intensive, though, especially at the degree the N64 appears to do it (under large framerate drop instances). Ironically enough, it would actually slow the game down even more :awesome:. But it's necessary if you don't want your game to sound like **** during slowdowns (which means the guys over at Nintendo obviously knew about the potential lag in some of their games due to inferior N64 hardware). All consoles employ some form of this because the real world isn't perfect and the framerate is never exactly 20 or 30 or 60 or whatever fps, and there are always dips and surges here and there. However, most of the time, games never go past + or - 5fps, so it's not too processor intensive.

I'd actually be curious to see how well modern consoles employ timestretching. It seems like most games don't push the powerful consoles' limits these days, so it'd be tough to find yourself in a situation where there is a significant fps drop.

I'll have to check myself, but it doesn't look like SSB drops below 40fps or so (on console), so the sound distortion won't be too noticeable. The audio should, however, be slowed down as well. I'm not positive on the sound itself, but with the frequency change might come that hilarious effect when you slow down videos (low, deep sounds). Again, it's not really that noticeable since the speed isn't cut by that much.

As far as I know, the sound plugins for 64 emus aren't terribly advanced (nothing like PSCX2), so while there might be some timestretching going on, it's only really enough to account for the ~5fps "tolerance" range during regular gameplay.

An option you could try is increasing (pretty sure it's not decreasing, but what the hell doI know :awesome:) the buffer size (Azimer's old driver only), which should delay the sound up to 1 second, which will decrease that choppy sound you hear during slowdowns, since it's waiting for the video to be processed before processing the audio. It looks like there is no buffer size option in the new Azimer driver (even says so in the settings!) so you're stuck with whatever "Dynamic Audio Sync" does (not even sure exactly how advanced it is or what sort of latency it uses).



TL;DR: The audio plugins for 64 emus were not designed to cope with massive framerate distortion, yet the console seems to be geared that way.
 
G

Glöwworm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
1,417
Location
CA
Sempiternity said:
Kinda technical **** heading your way; watch out!
Click to expand...
It's okay. I understood it ALL.

Sempiternity said:
Ballin's right; the framerate does drop below 60fps. As for sound, there is an explanation for that. I'm not entirely sure how the sound is processed on the N64 console itself, but I assume it's some sort of "timestretch" method. The same stuff that's used in the PCSX2 emulator. Basically, it syncs the sound up with the gamespeed, which eliminates the cracks and pops you hear when the emulator lags. The choppiness you're hearing is the sound playing in real time, but since the framerate is not perfectly 60, the audio has to stop every once in a while to let the video catch up. With timestretch, the audio is constantly refreshing to match the video speed.

This is pretty damn hardware intensive, though, especially at the degree the N64 appears to do it (under large framerate drop instances). Ironically enough, it would actually slow the game down even more :awesome:. But it's necessary if you don't want your game to sound like **** during slowdowns (which means the guys over at Nintendo obviously knew about the potential lag in some of their games due to inferior N64 hardware). All consoles employ some form of this because the real world isn't perfect and the framerate is never exactly 20 or 30 or 60 or whatever fps, and there are always dips and surges here and there. However, most of the time, games never go past + or - 5fps, so it's not too processor intensive.

I'd actually be curious to see how well modern consoles employ timestretching. It seems like most games don't push the powerful consoles' limits these days, so it'd be tough to find yourself in a situation where there is a significant fps drop.

I'll have to check myself, but it doesn't look like SSB drops below 40fps or so (on console), so the sound distortion won't be too noticeable. The audio should, however, be slowed down as well. I'm not positive on the sound itself, but with the frequency change might come that hilarious effect when you slow down videos (low, deep sounds). Again, it's not really that noticeable since the speed isn't cut by that much.

As far as I know, the sound plugins for 64 emus aren't terribly advanced (nothing like PSCX2), so while there might be some timestretching going on, it's only really enough to account for the ~5fps "tolerance" range during regular gameplay.

An option you could try is increasing (pretty sure it's not decreasing, but what the hell doI know :awesome:) the buffer size (Azimer's old driver only), which should delay the sound up to 1 second, which will decrease that choppy sound you hear during slowdowns, since it's waiting for the video to be processed before processing the audio. It looks like there is no buffer size option in the new Azimer driver (even says so in the settings!) so you're stuck with whatever "Dynamic Audio Sync" does (not even sure exactly how advanced it is or what sort of latency it uses).



TL;DR: The audio plugins for 64 emus were not designed to cope with massive framerate distortion, yet the console seems to be geared that way.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was actually thinking that the sound is handled in a different way. THANKS FOR ANSWERING.
 
TANK64

TANK64

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
1,886
Location
Training Mode
Don't usually support the pawning of items for a quick need BUUUUUT I think I'm gonna sell Some some stuff to go to this. Nothing important, just a Wii and games that I don't use anyways (none of my classic stuff).

also, just looked up MegaBus, and GOD DAMN that's cheap! Prolly gonna have to take 3 different lines, but still. It'll take a while, but it's so temping.

Hype?
 
The Star King

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Maybe I'm being optomistic but I actually think 64 capping out is likely, maybe it should be raised a bit :/
 
LLDL

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
Yeah there are already 30 entrants. Better register now!
 
The Star King

The Star King

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Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
For some reason I thought the cap was 50 but it's actually 64, so not as likely as I thought I guess. Maybe it still will IDK
 
LLDL

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
Yes, and I will be bringing 2 recording setups for 64, the main one with commentary! That's in addition to whoever else may be recording. So we can look forward to a swarm of new high level footage with all the talent that will be there.
 
KnitePhox

KnitePhox

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
1,838
Location
Chicago, IL
The Star King said:
For some reason I thought the cap was 50 but it's actually 64, so not as likely as I thought I guess. Maybe it still will IDK
Click to expand...
damn if u live in va just take the amtrak train, cant be more than 4hrs ride 1way; not bad. would be low cost unless u can drive or get a ride from a florida brawl/melee player... lols.
 
The Star King

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
KnitePhox said:
damn if u live in va just take the amtrak train, cant be more than 4hrs ride 1way; not bad. would be low cost unless u can drive or get a ride from a florida brawl/melee player... lols.
Click to expand...
...Wut? I was talking about the player cap, and this isn't related.
 
The Star King

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Wouldn't be surprised if it's an American thing.

Maybe he thought Sheer meant "SICK" or something :D
 
S

Sensei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
1,991
Location
North Hollywood, CA
My inbox is flooded with registration requests, double you tee eff?

I just registered, money matched applications are currently being accepted.

Help me feed my family, we are the 99%, tax the rich, give to the poor. Down with corporate smash. Rise up ssb
 
clubbadubba

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
I mostly go random on kailera but I think I should main someone for this tourney. Who should I pick? Only constraints: not kirby cuz that's lame, not falcon cuz I already have too many bad habits with him (even though he's my best vs. n00b character).
 
KnitePhox

KnitePhox

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
1,838
Location
Chicago, IL
clubbadubba said:
I mostly go random on kailera but I think I should main someone for this tourney. Who should I pick? Only constraints: not kirby cuz that's lame, not falcon cuz I already have too many bad habits with him (even though he's my best vs. n00b character).
Click to expand...
going to need something to counter the infinite pikas that will be there so I'd say ness
 
Z

Zack353

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
630
i really want someone to win the tournament with luigi

so go luigi so you can do that for me
 
M!nt

M!nt

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
2,087
+1 for DK, just go with whoever you feel most comfortable with.
 
clubbadubba

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
lol 6 responses, 5 different characters. I'm leaning towards fox atm. Ness, DK, and Luigi are all in my bottom 4 characters, dunno if I can bring them up to even be respectable by apex. Mario's fun though, maybe I'll mix him in a bit.
 
G

Glöwworm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
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Location
CA
Ugh, I really want to go to Apex and I want to go to the 64 event. Anybody want to sponsor me? I promise to give Isai a run for his money in a timely manner unlike those campy Peruvian players :awesome: :troll:
 
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