An Ex-Main's Revised View of Jigglypuff

Veril

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#1
I mained Jigglypuff earlier in my smash career in vBrawl and later in B+ when I switched over. At this point I play both games, but my attitude towards them is totally different. This has really changed how I perceive Jigglypuff in vBrawl, because my mentality in vBrawl is focused intensely on improving as a competitor as opposed to continually improving the game itself. I have no real love for the game or Jiggs (though she is MAD cute), and massively prefer MK.

That said I believe that Jigglypuff is a very good secondary. Firstly she is extremely easy to play from a technical perspective, even from the already pitiful standards set by vBrawl. This is even more pronounced because her playstyle does not massively differ from that of top tiers such as MK and Wario. She's just worse in most ways. As a main she simply cannot hold her own in a lot of matchups, and she is extremely easy to counterpick. She doesn't do as well against MK as the top-tiers, gets ***** by Snake and GW. Getting double-blinded as her is incredibly risky.

With that said, Jiggs has a lot to offer as a second:

1. Counters Diddy: Seriously learn this matchup or stop playing Puff. Know how to rest the dash-attack, jab cancel and repeating Jab, the timing to gimp his recovery options, and how to use his nannerz (cause she can). Ban FD and you've got yourself a good matchup that NOBODY KNOWS cause Jiggs is trash right? What self respecting Diddy doesn't know the MK matchup? They all do, and so even though its arguably a disadvantage there's no surprise factor at all.

2. May counter the ICs. The ICs can kill you off one grab but that grab is really hard to get vs. Jiggs. Jiggs also rapes Nana harder than most. I actually think Jiggs Nana **** might be somewhat better than MK's simply because Nana is almost incapable of combo breaking and Jiggs has massively superior air speed/maneuverability. Jiggs is a great gimper who has the tools to space and kill the ICs while avoiding the most powerful tool the ICs have. On the other hand the ICs have desynch blizzard and are actually good as a character. Since having matchup experience is extremely important for the ICs this might actually be a good idea as really... how many Jigglypuff's will any person have played?

3. Low-Tier Queen: counters Ike. Rapes most of the low tiers.

4. Easy to use with some neat, but situational tricks.

5. Decent in doubles. I'd like to see someone try the Anubis strat with Jiggs/Lucario.

6. Can time out matches without exceeding the ledgegrab limit. Not amazing, but notable air-planking capabilities.


Jiggs has strings that aren't technically combos but do either function as frame-traps or forced Yomi to retreat. She also has some true combos at low%. Staled b-air can legitimately WoP, char/% dependent. D-air, when it lands, can combo into rest on trip or safely string into f-smash. Up-tilt is a true combo into a bunch of stuff at very low % (<10%). In teams its worth noting that up-tilt to rest is a true combo on FFers at low%. Not bad huh.

A notable misconception is that Jiggs dies super early. She dies kinda early but you can survive a long time with excellent DI and defensive play. Especially against Diddy, SDI massively influences this match. Jiggs SDI is very useful because she can escape some multi-hit attacks from the top without falling back into them. She has an alright combo breaker with nair, and a really situational combo breaker with rest (but an amazingly fast and invincible one).

Jigglypuff also has a HAX grab range, fast grab, and thus has at least 1 move that is useful on the ground. Her OOS options aren't good, but they are OK. OOS nair and shieldgrabs are respectable even if shuttle loop is massively superior to both combined ;p


I like MK-Jiggs in vBrawl cause it genuinely makes sense from a competitive standpoint. The playstyles have a lot of overlap and I can play Diddy's without needing to time them out. I've got a pocket low-tier and the obvious powerhouse that is MK, who despite his vastly disproportionate capabilities has no element of surprise to him whatsoever.
 
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#2
It's really a shame that the game is so unbalanced that competitive players are forced to pick a high tier character, or face an onslaught of disadvantage and defeat. You can't use Ganon in a regular tournament and expect to win, or in the very least: do well. You have just as good a chance winning with him as you do finding a serious group of people in a tourney that willingly don't use the top 3 or 4 characters.

With all the MetaKnight users and Snakes slithering around, where is the variety? Melee isn't free from this type of unarbitrary character selection, but it's gotten a lot worse in brawl.

I am now learning to use D3 solely because I don't want a constant disadvantage using Jiggler, and because I refuse to use any character in A tier or higher. (Jiggler will always be my main though <3)

I don't blame you, Veril, for using MetaKnight, in fact you did the right thing. You proved that Jiggler is a prime candidate for a secondary and isn't completely useless when mastered.

...but for God's sake man, have some decency! MetaKnight? How the hell do you respect yourself?! lol
 

Veril

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#3
Jiggler is a prime candidate for a secondary and isn't completely useless when mastered.
Yes. That is the idea. Jiggs has something to contribute to the metagame that actually meshes with playing to win.

...but for God's sake man, have some decency! MetaKnight?
MK sees you hating. Too bad that hate doesn't have transcendent priority.
 
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#4
MK sees you hating. Too bad that hate doesn't have transcendent priority.
I'd never main Metaknight or Snake. In my personal opinion, they bring the desperation for victory to mind. Don't take that the wrong way though, it's just the only logical reason that I would find myself maining them.
I've got nothing against your decision.

In unrelated news, HotPocket sideshots are the man.
 
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#6
I saw some Brawl hate :/, just why?

Also, which low tiers does she actually '****'?

Aside from those two points, you made a lot of sense, it was a nice read, and definatly decent for newer Jiggs players.
 
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#7
I saw some Brawl hate :/, just why?

Also, which low tiers does she actually '****'?

Aside from those two points, you made a lot of sense, it was a nice read, and definatly decent for newer Jiggs players.
There is a lot to hate about brawl. I'd subsitute Melee's fun speed for a balanced cast of characters and Brawl speed any day of the week.

As for your second question, she rapes Ganon, Bowser, Lucas, Ness... and she holds her own against just about everyone else.
 

Noobicidal

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#8
As for your second question, she rapes Ganon, Bowser, Lucas, Ness... and she holds her own against just about everyone else.
The match-up is no better than 45:55 in Puff's favor. Ganon out-ranges Puff, Puff is one of the easiest characters to chain choke, and Ganon has six GUARANTEED options out of choke on Puff. He can consistently kill Puff in no more than five hits.

Regardless, this isn't the match-up thread, so I'll leave it be.
 
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#10
The match-up is no better than 45:55 in Puff's favor. Ganon out-ranges Puff, Puff is one of the easiest characters to chain choke, and Ganon has six GUARANTEED options out of choke on Puff. He can consistently kill Puff in no more than five hits.

Regardless, this isn't the match-up thread, so I'll leave it be.
I didn't really expect a retort, but regardless, my point is proven. Jigglypuff does fairly well against Ganon.
 
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#13
The resident Ganon main giving a retort is quite a shocker, indeed.

Fairly well ≠ ****.
I too dabble in the arts of Ganon, though I'm sorry if I confused you when I listed the low tier characters Jigglypuff does well against and included Ganon in an irrational category. For the record, I was just using the term "****" because I took it out of context.

I think Jigglypuff has no big problems with Captain Falcon.
I'm no Falcon expert, so I can't disagree.
 

Vmage

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#15
Jiggs > Falcon
Lucas > Jiggs

...but what do I know?

Seriously, how do we have an advantage over Lucas?
In my opinion, Ness is easier since you can interupt his up b by touching his thunder bolt. Lucas is different since you can't interupt his recovery. Well his grabs are pretty bad so that's good. Nothing else I can think of. Everything else seem to be an advantage for lucas. Jigglypuff has about 30 ratio match up with Lucas.
 
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#17
Jigglypuff does **** Ganondorf. Just watch out for stupid **** and actually pay attention to the match so you don't die at 0% from his D air. Don't try to play with him around the ledge and when recovering just go under to the other side of the stage or fly in from above. Once you get him in the center stay in the air a tiny bit, only grab if he misses an attack on you, pound in the air, and use some arieals, and hes pretty much done. Vex Kasrani's Ganon is in the same crew as me get at me.

Against Bowser, well thats pretty much true, Bowser rapes Jiggypuff.

Ness well, um grab release to the ledge and predict the **** out of him because hes so worried that hes going to get gimped. Don't try to gimp him, just let him air dodge his way to the ground and punish him for his stupidity. If hes really far out go out there and n air his pk thunder, if its already behind him retreat because your going to get murdered by his b up. Don't fall for his Pk thunder shenanigans, move in close to him and you probably can get past his f air with DACUS. Get him at 65% and finish him off with drill to rest.

Lucas, same thing as Ness but a tiny bit easier. don't try to gimp him just predict his recovery. Powershield any pk fires, and for the love of god don't air dodge on your way down to the ground until your close enough that you'll land during the air dodge or else you going to get hit by his Upsmash.

Yoshi will **** you by keeping you away with his eggs, and when you do get close enough he'll just grab you, choose a different character.

Jigglypuff does not counter Ike, or maybe its just M2k's Ike that I can't beat in Low Tier Tournaments.

Jigglypuff should be able to beat Link and C.Falcon with no prob.

Marios just plain annoying and against Sonic retreating N Airs to stop his spinsdashes. If you get too close to Sonic and your trying to get away hes going to let go of spindash if you roll or sidestep dodge, so do neither. Retreating N Airs well help you re position yourself.

Samus & Zelda beat Jiggs, I hate fighting both of them.

Yes, Jigglypuff doesn't do exactly well against Low Tiers herself, I actually don't really like Low Tier tournaments because Novelty characters are everywhere and you can't use it to your advantage. When I'm against MK I know what I'm doing and they don't and it gets me an easy win. In fact, I only do really well in National/Regional sized tournaments because nobody knows how to fight my Jigglypuff and I take full advantage of that. In low tier tournaments and local tournaments I dont do as well, and I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff is exactly where she should be on the tier list, for a while I always thought she should be higher because I kept winning with her, but thats because of novelty characters. Many players that i've fought who know how to fight Jiggs and shut me out and force me to be Diddy Kong to stand a chance.
 
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#18
i found a good solution for marios fireballs, set two buttons to grab and mash both of them as a fireball hits, it stuns you but you can buffer moves after getting hit. mario will most likely shield grab or attack after the ball hits so you can grab him out of it pretty easily. shielding them will only put you in a worse situation.
i won all games with vex's bowser the last time we played, but i use pivots and melee stuff for spacing so i think that's really what helped me with the match up. i think you can jump before the uair hits you, or vex just messed up his timing a lot (multiple button setting=easy mash-out)

samus, zelda and ike are all easy matchups if you play them right.
most jigglypuffs play differently so its common that are views on matchups are different. The moves we choose to use in situations can vary due to jiggz having several similair properties in her moves. It really comes down to technique and your ability to move and space on the ground that separates us.
 
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#19
For you to even consider saying that the Samus and Zelda MUs are easy for you, they are clearly doing something terribly wrong :/. They are not your hardest low tier MUs by any means, but they are certainly not easy ones.

I do however say that the differences in a Jigglypuff players spacing can prove VITAL in deciding the overall matchups tbh :/. (Peach v Marth is a prime example of this)
 

Thinkaman

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#24
The match-up is no better than 45:55 in Puff's favor. Ganon out-ranges Puff, Puff is one of the easiest characters to chain choke, and Ganon has six GUARANTEED options out of choke on Puff. He can consistently kill Puff in no more than five hits.

Regardless, this isn't the match-up thread, so I'll leave it be.
Ness is at 60:40 against Jiggs, maybe worse. Hey, you win if you get him off stage--otherwise his grab game outclasses yours and his uair/fair/bair is a huge threat.

Bowser is 40:60. All his aerials are telegraphed, and why are you letting Bowser grab Jigglypuff???

Lucas is close to even, probably slightly in Lucas's favor. He's like a less dangerous Ness for Jigg's sake.

Ike isn't countered by Jiggs, but it's probably slightly in her favor. The height of the hitboxes on his jab makes consistently approaching far harder than it otherwise would be.

Yoshi is even, but be smart with CPs. Major preference for Brinstar.

Mario, eh. Might be slightly in his favor or even.

Falcon is countered by Jiggs, his options in most situations are very poor unless he commits to a jump+uair.

Samus is about even, not that bad.

Zelda has a decent advantage; Jigglypuff might be her best matchup...

Link is about even.

Ganondorf is also countered by Jiggs. Jiggs should never get ground choked. Avoid uair and bairs, punish liberally, and you win. Pound isn't really needed ever in this matchup, and risks pain. Spam bair like it's 2005.
 

Thinkaman

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#28
Olimar counters Jiggler. The matchup is around 70:30 in his favor.
Nope. It's a weird matchup that requires you more frequently adjust your spacing around what they are doing, but in general it's not bad at all. Lots of dair, lots of pound if they are trying to go for smashes. Up-b is a pain as Jigglypuff, but not many Olimars know this and you can get grabs in if they use it predictably. Don't much worry about keeping fair fresh, the early damage and knockback is exponentially more valuable against Olimar than other characters.

You might want to specifically ban Luigi's against someone you know is an Olimar main (if Corneria isn't legal obviously), Green Greens is also a decent option. Take Olimar to Norfair or Brinstar like any other matchup. Frigate is a decent alternate choice, but I'd suggest stalling on the 2nd form.

Jigglypuff/Olimar isn't Jigglypuff's favorite matchup, but it's not bad at all once you know it.
 

Cold Fusion

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#29
Olimar is not bad as long as he's never heard of Up-Special. As always, get him off stage and he is dead. Plank when you have the lead and you pretty much win if there is no ledge grab limit. I'm not saying it's our advantage though.
 
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