It's a living chart; if people who know more suggest a change it changes. However, when you just insult the guy instead of giving some helpful feedback you don't do him or us any good and, frankly, it makes you look like a jerk.
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All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)
- Thread starter phanna
- Start date
I'm most of the way through the next update right now so hold comments until then (another hour at most), since your suggestions might already get incorporated. I will edit this post with what I changed and why. And here it is:
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I changed Samus vs Dr. Mario from Even to 5-4, which occurred to me as a good idea when I saw the disparity of Samus and Mario being 5-3 in Samus' favor.
Also, I changed Sheik-Ganon from 5-1 to 5-2 on principle. CTs aren't everything, and Ganon can even CT Sheik a bit. It is definitely a counter though, as 5-2 indicates. This also makes Sheik as good against Ganon as she is against Link (and others), which DooDah suggested.
Mario does better against C. Falcon than Doc because of his much better combos, and can also recover from a good C. Falcon combo off the level, whereas Doc would be far less likely to, and doesn't have the much-needed range and duration of Mario's smash for the fight.
Doc does better against Ganon than Mario because Ganon is much more of a single-aerial encounter fight, and Doc has a much better Fair and Nair, when it comes to only using them once. Doc's vertical bonus on his cape also plays a huge role, since it will do better than Mario's for caping Ganon's up-b. The same could be said of the C. Falcon fight, but Doc just doesn't perform as well as Mario to let the cape make up for it.
Fake edit: RockCrock also pointed out the Ganon versus Mario/Doc match-ups, so I brought them together to both being even. Any suggestions to go from there?
As for Samus, if there's anyone who can out-live Peach, it's Samus, with a similarly godly recovery, and a much better crouch cancel (to be avoided on dsmash). Sure peach can aerial through a missile. Who can't? That doesn't stop the fact that her float in approach gets ruined, and Samus can spam so many missiles that she really gets an edge over peach in that regard, especially considering that Missiles will knock a turnip to the side and continue on target, and that Samus can catch turnips, especially easily while recovering in ball form. Leaving this at 5-4 in Samus' favor for now.
N64 and Fletch already said most of what I had to say about your post.. I'm glad for your help, and it is being factored into decisions, but I'm covering virtually all of the match-ups you discussed in other parts of this update post (look up and down).
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Suggestions start to repeat themselves around this point, so if I skipped your comment and you feel it was relevant and not addressed, point it out to me, with my apologies.
And to anyone who never saw the original first post, be sure to check it out here, and read some of the caveats I posted then.
Oh, and how do people feel about this Red-White-Green color scheme, I thought it made a clearer difference between 4 and 6, and might be more visually pleasing (though personally I prefer the current Red-Green-Blue scheme, but I thought I'd throw this out there):
Note that the actual values are those from before this update, so only look at the above in terms of the formatting. Which do you prefer?
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I changed Samus vs Dr. Mario from Even to 5-4, which occurred to me as a good idea when I saw the disparity of Samus and Mario being 5-3 in Samus' favor.
Also, I changed Sheik-Ganon from 5-1 to 5-2 on principle. CTs aren't everything, and Ganon can even CT Sheik a bit. It is definitely a counter though, as 5-2 indicates. This also makes Sheik as good against Ganon as she is against Link (and others), which DooDah suggested.
Sounds good, the changed the match-up from 5-2 to 5-3.
That update showed Mario doing better than Doc against C. Falcon by matches (not stock). But you got the other part flipped: it showed Doc doing better than Mario against Ganon by 2.
Mario does better against C. Falcon than Doc because of his much better combos, and can also recover from a good C. Falcon combo off the level, whereas Doc would be far less likely to, and doesn't have the much-needed range and duration of Mario's smash for the fight.
Doc does better against Ganon than Mario because Ganon is much more of a single-aerial encounter fight, and Doc has a much better Fair and Nair, when it comes to only using them once. Doc's vertical bonus on his cape also plays a huge role, since it will do better than Mario's for caping Ganon's up-b. The same could be said of the C. Falcon fight, but Doc just doesn't perform as well as Mario to let the cape make up for it.
Fake edit: RockCrock also pointed out the Ganon versus Mario/Doc match-ups, so I brought them together to both being even. Any suggestions to go from there?
I've changed that from 5-1 to 5-2, but it's definitely one of the hardest counters in the game.
Sounds good, changes made.
Sounds reasonable for all but the last reason (fully charged skull bash isn't something that happens a lot in tournaments, especially if it's required to do on one specific level <_<). Changed Pichu vs Jigglypuff from 3-5 to 4-5
I'll move it down to 3-5 from 4-5, you give some good reasons, and 2-5 might be more appropriate, but I like to avoid drastic moves in any one update. Pichu has the disadvantage, but he's still small and fast.
3-5 against Luigi sounds reasonable; lowered it from 4-5.
That's actually one of the matches I've always found to be extremely even, I had only lowered as marginally off-even to compromise with someone who proposed the match as 3-5 in Marth's favor awhile back, I'm happy to change it back to even, thanks for pointing that out.
I have no qualms with making this even from 5-4 peach, done.
With even more reluctance than before, I'll lower this to barely even, 5-4 in Ganon's favor. That does put Ganon and Sheik at the same difficulty level for Samus, which seems appropriate, with only Captain Falcon being her harder match-up, which I can also accept. Personally, I hate Ganon the most lol, and Tipman didn't lose to Wes, but whatever, people keep grinding me down on this one. Which is good, break my spirit for the sake of the chart
Well right now he only has a the smallest of advantages, and that's mostly because he can space bair on the level to stay his ground, and his cape is kind of broken when it comes to edge-guarding Ganon. Other than that, it would be even, with slight favor to Ganon; see my reply to someone asking about Doc/Mario vs Ganon/Falcon near the beginning of this post for more. I'm going to leave that at 5-4 Doc for now.
Hehe. Ganon going 5-4 against Link seems perfectly reasonable, and you provided a cute reason for it being even, but nothing that would make me change the match-up this update. Left alone.
PENDING
Sounds reasonable, changing it from 5-2 to 5-3 Ganon's favor.
Well originally I had link as 5-3 just because people made such a big deal about Y. Link vs Peach and I figured some of that had to carry over, but since then the Y. Link match-up has changed to 5-3 in his favor, so it seems appropriate relative to that to have Link be even, plus independently people have been indicating that match was even, so sounds good, I'll make Link - Peach even (5-5).
As for Samus, if there's anyone who can out-live Peach, it's Samus, with a similarly godly recovery, and a much better crouch cancel (to be avoided on dsmash). Sure peach can aerial through a missile. Who can't? That doesn't stop the fact that her float in approach gets ruined, and Samus can spam so many missiles that she really gets an edge over peach in that regard, especially considering that Missiles will knock a turnip to the side and continue on target, and that Samus can catch turnips, especially easily while recovering in ball form. Leaving this at 5-4 in Samus' favor for now.
N64 and Fletch already said most of what I had to say about your post.. I'm glad for your help, and it is being factored into decisions, but I'm covering virtually all of the match-ups you discussed in other parts of this update post (look up and down).
I would love it if a Bowser afficianado such as yourself could give me more accurate (but realistic and unbiased) suggestions. For instance, I don't want to know how bad you **** local god tier, I want to know how you think a bowser almost as good as you would do against a random, well-talented (but not godly) player of each character.
Raised it from 3-5 to 4-5 in Falcon's favor.
People have been pointing this one out for awhile, thanks for finalizing it. It might even be 2-5, but I'm going to lower it from 4-5 to 3-5 for now, mostly only because the ICies can't chain throw DK.
They both have the advantage at 5-4, but I don't think your post warrents increasing that gap, especially how I've seen your DK play against marios recently. So I agree; let me know if you think DK is at more of a disadvantage than 4-5.
5-4 DK's favor seems appropriate, and balances phish-it's suggestion shortly after your post for it being 5-3 and Exarch's suggestion for 5-5. I'll change it from even to 5-4.
Definitely agree, making that one 3-5 in Y. Link's favor, down from Even. Link - DK is still marked as Even, feelings?
Well it was 5-3, but I'll make it 5-4.
Yeah yeah, I made it 5-4 already
This is about the third comment on those match-ups since the last update, it's getting confusing. I'll move Doc-Ganon from 5-4 Doc to even, and Mario-Ganon from 4-5 Ganon to even, and take things from there.
Yeah, they can both chain, but Doc has a significantly worse recovery, and a good captain will upair you to around the edge of the camera every time, which Doc can't really handle, whereas Mario can, and also has much better combos on C. Falcon, as well as a far better fsmash for the fight. Their throws are roughly the same. Leaving this disparity in there, with Mario going even with Falcon, and Doc going 3-5. They maybe should only be one apart, but Mario definitely can handle Falcon better, and I wouldn't go so far as to say he has the advantage in the match-up.
If you say so, it's always been a clone match of speed versus power, so even sounds reasonable; changing it from 4-5 Captain's favor.
Yeah I'm eyeballing those A's and 0's... I think the only ones I'm going to keep for now are Sheik-Bowser, Marth-Mewtwo, and Ice Climbers-Pichu. But yeah I agree, I'm changing this match-up to 5-2 (an 8 for Falcon).
Not sure where you're going with this one.. Zelda certainly doesn't have the advantage, but a well-spaced Zelda will toe Marth out of most any non-perfect fsmash or throw. It's a very well-spaced fight, with Marth's better edge-guarding and overall speed determining the winner.
Yeah I actually changed that one to 2-5 before I even started reading posts; good call.
Meh, I'm a little reluctant to, but I'll move Captain to 4-5 against Fox, 3-5 almost seemed more appropriate. I am leaving Mario at 3-5 against Fox though, I mean he's got a cape, but that's not too hard to avoid. I do agree with Bowser though, I'm changing that to 1-5 against Fox.
Pretty sure it would have to involve a normalized matrix and eigenvalues. I'm going to worry about that later, but it'll be pretty horrific to try to calculate, so I wouldn't expect that anytime soon.
I essentially agree 100% with this post, and it's pretty much all reflected by the end of this update. People have way to much of a boner for the IC counter on Sheik. Yes, they 'counter' in that a lower-tier character can beat Sheik, but Sheik is still rapefest USA. If she spaces on the ground and stays airborne a lot (not above icies tho), she can wittle away at ICies, and eventually off Nana, and then easily Popo.
I think most of that has been reflected in the changes I'm making this time, except Roy > Fox.
Not familiar with a weatherman's color scope, could you give me an example? Also, I have a different version I'll demo at the end of this post to get peoples' opinions on which is better.
Meh, it's hard, but grabs happen, and mean pain for either character. I'll lower this to 3-5 from 4-5 Fox's favor.
Sparkle isn't a 'huge range disadvantage'. And DK is big with a small shield = bad news against Ness' nair. But I'm still changing this one from 2-5 to 3-5 in Ness' favor.
Yeah okay I buy that, Falco and Samus seem comperably hard for DK. He can combo the heck out of Falco, but Falco is also rapesies when he's not being combo'd. Samus has a great recovery and CC. So I'll up DK vs Samus from 2-5 to 3-5.
3-5 sounds good.
I think this has been addressed previously in this update - IC-DK got changed to 5-3 from 5-4.
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Suggestions start to repeat themselves around this point, so if I skipped your comment and you feel it was relevant and not addressed, point it out to me, with my apologies.
And to anyone who never saw the original first post, be sure to check it out here, and read some of the caveats I posted then.
Oh, and how do people feel about this Red-White-Green color scheme, I thought it made a clearer difference between 4 and 6, and might be more visually pleasing (though personally I prefer the current Red-Green-Blue scheme, but I thought I'd throw this out there):
Note that the actual values are those from before this update, so only look at the above in terms of the formatting. Which do you prefer?
Mcscruff
Smash Ace
concerning sheik vs. ICS, its a counter. so in my opinion it should be closer to 5-2 in IC's favor.
`Jammin' Jobus
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 489
i dont think game and watch has that much of a harder time vs falco than he does vs fox..
i'd make them the same..both 5-3 in fox and falco's favor.
or maybe 5-3 for fox and 5-2 for falco if im missing something key about this matchup.
and i dont think sheik counters dk THAT badly.. but this could be cuz i got a wack sheik and i play a good dk.
i'd make them the same..both 5-3 in fox and falco's favor.
or maybe 5-3 for fox and 5-2 for falco if im missing something key about this matchup.
and i dont think sheik counters dk THAT badly.. but this could be cuz i got a wack sheik and i play a good dk.
exarch
doot doot doot
Dave, when I say weather scope thing, I mean something like this:
I know there's a lot more subdivisions than you need, but you can just take the major ones. Really, there's a lot more colors you could make use of to distiguish, and though yours looks nice, it takes some closer looking at to determine what is what.
Good stuff though, i'm sure this takes a lot of effort.
I know there's a lot more subdivisions than you need, but you can just take the major ones. Really, there's a lot more colors you could make use of to distiguish, and though yours looks nice, it takes some closer looking at to determine what is what.
Good stuff though, i'm sure this takes a lot of effort.
phish-it
Smash Champion
Looks alot better than before phanna. I don't really think the colors need much changing though, since they're pretty legible now.
Should I start pointing out changes already? Thats what this topic is for.
Allright, DK vs Fox is a 3-7. DK vs IC's is also a 3-7. Surely they aren't even matches. I really feel Fox should be a 4 and IC's a 2 (possibly even a 1 since they are the apes hardest matchup) But I know for a fact (and many others do to) that they aren't even.
You point out that IC's can't chainthrow DK, but sheik can't chainthrow him either (If he DI's away atleast) and Sheik is labeled at an 8-2 advantage. DK relies on grabs largely for starting comboes, and it's highly difficult to grab a pair of characters than a single one.
Also, I started looking at Yoshi's matchups, whom I used to play frequently.
I can say that Fox and Falco crush the poor dinosaur, it's inevitable (Fox more than falco) and Yoshi should be at a lower value vs. them.
Yoshi also wrecks mewtwo (but who doesn't) yet they are labeled as even. Yoshi's can easily DJC in a n-air against many of mewtwo's attacks, plus being able to combo the crap out of him. (Yoshi's comboes wreck big slow characters, which mewtwo happens to be.)
I'd say it's an 8-2 For Yoshi.
Should I start pointing out changes already? Thats what this topic is for.
Allright, DK vs Fox is a 3-7. DK vs IC's is also a 3-7. Surely they aren't even matches. I really feel Fox should be a 4 and IC's a 2 (possibly even a 1 since they are the apes hardest matchup) But I know for a fact (and many others do to) that they aren't even.
You point out that IC's can't chainthrow DK, but sheik can't chainthrow him either (If he DI's away atleast) and Sheik is labeled at an 8-2 advantage. DK relies on grabs largely for starting comboes, and it's highly difficult to grab a pair of characters than a single one.
Also, I started looking at Yoshi's matchups, whom I used to play frequently.
I can say that Fox and Falco crush the poor dinosaur, it's inevitable (Fox more than falco) and Yoshi should be at a lower value vs. them.
Yoshi also wrecks mewtwo (but who doesn't) yet they are labeled as even. Yoshi's can easily DJC in a n-air against many of mewtwo's attacks, plus being able to combo the crap out of him. (Yoshi's comboes wreck big slow characters, which mewtwo happens to be.)
I'd say it's an 8-2 For Yoshi.
MetalLuigi1209
Smash Ace
I think Yoshi should be at least 5-4 over D.K. Yoshi does fairly well against heavyweight charcaters, and for the most part, can beat D.K, since he has a very good shield against D.K.'s more powerful attacks.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
can't IC's chainthrow everyone but IC's with dthrow, dair, reverse grab?
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
ganon on pichu is the worst counter in the game, it's a 5-0 for ganon, pichu can't get close at all, ganon can do whatever he wants, even CT down to 70 which can lead to a bair, whi means bye bye for pichu
ICs vs. peach, i would make that a 5-3 in peach's favor, it's not a horrible match-up, but it's still isn't pretty, also peach is one of the easier characters for ICs to CT
doc and mario have the upperhand on sheik, those are 5-4 in the marios' favor
doc has the upperhand on jiggs, it's 5-4, i think cause his hitbox for most of his move is his body, unlike mario's, gives him an upperhand on jiggs while mario is at deficit of an equal degree
mario and doc are even, mario does have a slight upper hand but it's more like 5-4.9, so just call it even
ganon has a 5-4 advantage over both mario's, on the stage he wins the fight, so as long as he stays on the stage, he's good
luigi has the upperhand on the marios', they're the perfect weight and falling speed for him to do juggles of over 50% constantly
pika and pichu against the marios are at a 5-1 deficit, it's almost as bad as them fighting the ICs, and the CT is almost as bad, and pika and pichu have like no combos back
fox and falco have upperhands on marth on everystage but FD, but that's only one stage so ultimately, they have the upperhand
falco combo's the hell outta peach, it's more of a 5-4 in falco's favor
fox vs pika is more 5-3 in fox's favor, pika can pull nasty stuff on fox too
g&w on fox and falco are 5-4 in the spacies favors, g&w is a very worthy opponent with his juggles, especially the fact he can edgegaurd better than everyone
ness on the spacies also 5-4 in spacies favors, ness can do almost the same wonders on them as g&w can, just differently
make bowser 5-3 on fox and 5-2 on falco, he doesn't do THAT bad on them, fotress saves his @$$, they can't drillshine like normal
luigi on sheik is more 5-3 in favors of sheik, sheik can't really perform throw juggles here
falcon has the advantage on marth, 5-4 in falcon's favor, nair to anything is painful (i mean pretty much anything)
link has the advantage over marth, 5-4 odds for link, it's a weird one to explain but i know this for a fact, i think link's too heavy for throw combo's from marth
roy and marth are almost even, in the fray, roy wins, but marth comes out on top, so i'll make it 5-4 for marth
marth and mewtwo is a 5-3 in marth's favor, mewtwo does have his own little 0-70% (i think it's 70) on marth
marth vs zelda is 5-2 in marth's favor, zelda's a female and all females hate marth
g&w vs ness is 5-3 in g&w's favor, g&w does wonders to ness, ness can't use his DJC effectively either
and that's it, i only had one more to add, oh well
ICs vs. peach, i would make that a 5-3 in peach's favor, it's not a horrible match-up, but it's still isn't pretty, also peach is one of the easier characters for ICs to CT
yes they can
doc and mario have the upperhand on sheik, those are 5-4 in the marios' favor
doc has the upperhand on jiggs, it's 5-4, i think cause his hitbox for most of his move is his body, unlike mario's, gives him an upperhand on jiggs while mario is at deficit of an equal degree
mario and doc are even, mario does have a slight upper hand but it's more like 5-4.9, so just call it even
ganon has a 5-4 advantage over both mario's, on the stage he wins the fight, so as long as he stays on the stage, he's good
luigi has the upperhand on the marios', they're the perfect weight and falling speed for him to do juggles of over 50% constantly
pika and pichu against the marios are at a 5-1 deficit, it's almost as bad as them fighting the ICs, and the CT is almost as bad, and pika and pichu have like no combos back
fox and falco have upperhands on marth on everystage but FD, but that's only one stage so ultimately, they have the upperhand
falco combo's the hell outta peach, it's more of a 5-4 in falco's favor
fox vs pika is more 5-3 in fox's favor, pika can pull nasty stuff on fox too
g&w on fox and falco are 5-4 in the spacies favors, g&w is a very worthy opponent with his juggles, especially the fact he can edgegaurd better than everyone
ness on the spacies also 5-4 in spacies favors, ness can do almost the same wonders on them as g&w can, just differently
make bowser 5-3 on fox and 5-2 on falco, he doesn't do THAT bad on them, fotress saves his @$$, they can't drillshine like normal
luigi on sheik is more 5-3 in favors of sheik, sheik can't really perform throw juggles here
falcon has the advantage on marth, 5-4 in falcon's favor, nair to anything is painful (i mean pretty much anything)
link has the advantage over marth, 5-4 odds for link, it's a weird one to explain but i know this for a fact, i think link's too heavy for throw combo's from marth
roy and marth are almost even, in the fray, roy wins, but marth comes out on top, so i'll make it 5-4 for marth
marth and mewtwo is a 5-3 in marth's favor, mewtwo does have his own little 0-70% (i think it's 70) on marth
marth vs zelda is 5-2 in marth's favor, zelda's a female and all females hate marth
g&w vs ness is 5-3 in g&w's favor, g&w does wonders to ness, ness can't use his DJC effectively either
and that's it, i only had one more to add, oh well
Skler
Smash Master
I still wonder why Link vs Ness is so crappy for Link. Link has pretty much no disadvantage in that matchup, except he has a bigger hitbox. Sparkles are great, but they won't make up for all the things Link has going for him in the matchup.
Magus420
Smash Master
Mmm no.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=85582
CG to 40-45% would be reasonable to do consistently, though if you're absolutely flawless it goes to 54%. Pichu is often tough to grab in the first place however. Not anywhere near even but most certainly not the worst.
Sheik or Marth vs Bowser would be the worst in the game IMO. Not stupid Marth's that actually attack though. Just DD camping ones. If they attack they get DD camped by Bowser
phish-it
Smash Champion
^^ correct. Although I'd throw Pichu vs. IC's in there too.
Mood4food, I haven't seen you at a tournament since like April. Why not show up at the HRP tournament and Wreck my pichu with your Ganon; after all it is the biggest counterpick in the game.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
ehh, i doubt i can go since it's on my bday, so me going is doubtful
yea, last april, or something like that, i saw sol and ky at gauntlet, i wanna finish fighting ky's jiggs with ganon (which i was winning until kubu openned the disc trays on everyone), and yes, i've improved and have gotten more relaxed, and yes, you're still the best out of the trio, if i can go (maybe bring a friend or two if i can) i'll play you, no MM cause you know my belief by now
and this info with ganon on pichu was not mine, it's been floating around for a bit, since the new tier list
yea, last april, or something like that, i saw sol and ky at gauntlet, i wanna finish fighting ky's jiggs with ganon (which i was winning until kubu openned the disc trays on everyone), and yes, i've improved and have gotten more relaxed, and yes, you're still the best out of the trio, if i can go (maybe bring a friend or two if i can) i'll play you, no MM cause you know my belief by now
and this info with ganon on pichu was not mine, it's been floating around for a bit, since the new tier list
phish-it
Smash Champion
Meh, whatever. Sol is still better than me though, and Ky sandbags pretty often for whatever reason. (not saying he was against you but whatever)
Mew2King
King of the Mews
phanna
Mewtwo counters Ice Climbers, Taj 3 stocked, and 2-0d chus ICs in tourney last week
this list looks much better than it did last time, but I only got a close look at the characters.
I can assure you that Marth doesn't counter Fox, but the vice versa also isn't true. It's even, trust me on this, I'm probably the best person to ask for this matchup and if anything it's even.
I believe Fox vs Sheik is even too, but If you put a very very slight advantage toward Fox I'm not going to argue since almost everyone is against me on this and arguing in Melee Discussion would be pointless, but don't go beyond this point of very slight.
Based off experience, I think Sheik strongly counters Peach, at very minimum slight counter. I'd say 1 or 2 squares.
I think Marth should counter Peach by 1 or 2 squares probably, probably 2.
Kirby sucks and doesn't do good vs Sheik
Ice Climbers don't **** Sheik either, maybe small advantage.
Fox doesn't strongly counter Bowser, ask PC Chris about this it's not as strong as you put it.
Mewtwo counters Ice Climbers, Taj 3 stocked, and 2-0d chus ICs in tourney last week
this list looks much better than it did last time, but I only got a close look at the characters.
I can assure you that Marth doesn't counter Fox, but the vice versa also isn't true. It's even, trust me on this, I'm probably the best person to ask for this matchup and if anything it's even.
I believe Fox vs Sheik is even too, but If you put a very very slight advantage toward Fox I'm not going to argue since almost everyone is against me on this and arguing in Melee Discussion would be pointless, but don't go beyond this point of very slight.
Based off experience, I think Sheik strongly counters Peach, at very minimum slight counter. I'd say 1 or 2 squares.
I think Marth should counter Peach by 1 or 2 squares probably, probably 2.
Kirby sucks and doesn't do good vs Sheik
Ice Climbers don't **** Sheik either, maybe small advantage.
Fox doesn't strongly counter Bowser, ask PC Chris about this it's not as strong as you put it.
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
ICs Vs DK is at least 5-2 in ICs favor. You have Fox at a 5-3 which is what ICs are at. There's no way. DK's game revolves around grabbing and you cannot grab ICs when they're together. You can't combo them, due to their floatiness. And they can CG DK.
Falcon Vs Falco is even or at least 5-4 in Falco's favor, but I'd put it at even. Falcon's tech chase game is nasty vs Falco and one knee at above 50% is death to Falco.
LOL @ Luigi having the advantage over Peach. Peach definitely owns Ugi.
And Falco Vs DK is 5-0 in Falco's favor. There is nothing DK can do in this match up when being SHLed. He can't even block a pillar past the first shine,due to his horrendous shieldsies.
Falcon Vs Falco is even or at least 5-4 in Falco's favor, but I'd put it at even. Falcon's tech chase game is nasty vs Falco and one knee at above 50% is death to Falco.
LOL @ Luigi having the advantage over Peach. Peach definitely owns Ugi.
And Falco Vs DK is 5-0 in Falco's favor. There is nothing DK can do in this match up when being SHLed. He can't even block a pillar past the first shine,due to his horrendous shieldsies.
smashfan34
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 187
hugh?
why change link vs peach to 5 to 5? put it back the way it was. 5-4.
why change link vs peach to 5 to 5? put it back the way it was. 5-4.
smashfan34
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 187
lol.
Lmao. that was funny. pretty interesting when one of the best players in the world says its garbage. lmao.
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
Who's hugh?
smashfan34
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 187
I meant huh?
phish-it
Smash Champion
You almost make it seem like every match takes place on FD. But regardless, Falco can be a ***** for DK. He's harder than fox to approach, but just as easy to combo, which is why he should be at a 2-5 vs. the pigeon.
Wait a sec. Why is Jigglypuff at a 7-3 advantage vs. the ice climbers? Really I just want to know. (and can't be chainthrown shouldn't be the only reason)
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
No not really,FD would be excellent for DK Vs Falco(on FD the matchup is closer) it should be at most a 5-1.
Falco SHOULD NOT lose to DK, ever.
Unless it's on Jungle Japes.
Falco SHOULD NOT lose to DK, ever.
Unless it's on Jungle Japes.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
jiggs can be CT, it's hard but it can happen, isn't jiggs vs. ICs even, pretty sure it is
i've seen bum beat the crap outta falco's, friggen nasty DK right there
i've seen bum beat the crap outta falco's, friggen nasty DK right there
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
One person doesn't change the metagame.
Edit: Bum is my hero, or so I've heard from Tipman.
Also, Tipman quit so Bushman can finally take best Ganon title.
Edit: Bum is my hero, or so I've heard from Tipman.
Also, Tipman quit so Bushman can finally take best Ganon title.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
tipman quit, you better not be saying that...he's the reason i main ganon, i took everything i know from him, he's my hero....and he quit....
I like to know why? what have you seen that most sheik players can't see that is even..
Stick with the current color scheme, it works better than the Red/White/Green.
Too much about matchups to talk about right now, I'm way too tired. I'll try to get a good post in tommorow, but no promises.
Also, nice games Magus. That Jiggs is too good . . .
Too much about matchups to talk about right now, I'm way too tired. I'll try to get a good post in tommorow, but no promises.
Also, nice games Magus. That Jiggs is too good . . .
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
Shiek players play Sheik due to ease of use.
When they come across a matchup where they actually have to try(ie space animals) they freakout and john.
IceCleaners
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2006
- Messages
- 33
Zelda vs falco.
I'd put zelda at least mid tier, since zelda counters fox and falco. other than that everything is good.
I'd put zelda at least mid tier, since zelda counters fox and falco. other than that everything is good.
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
. . . . . . . . . Lolololololol.
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
BigRick
Smash Master
Yea yea IceCleaners, we're going to do these changes ASAP. hehe
I really like the Red/White/Green color scheme, it is much more logical and it makes it easier for us to see the differences between 5-4 and 4-5.
And I think that this thread should be moved to the Back Room. Just let the most knowledgable ppl make the list, then when its done create a new thread over here so that we can get a good laugh.
I really like the Red/White/Green color scheme, it is much more logical and it makes it easier for us to see the differences between 5-4 and 4-5.
And I think that this thread should be moved to the Back Room. Just let the most knowledgable ppl make the list, then when its done create a new thread over here so that we can get a good laugh.
exarch
doot doot doot
Applauds Doodah's last 2 posts and M2K's post
--Mookierah has mentioned M2 does very well against Icys too.
*Minor disagreements*
I was under the impression Marth vs Fox is adv for Marth because of CCgrab -> 80% combo/death. When's the last time Ken was beaten by a Fox?
Fox vs Sheik IMO is slightly toward Sheik. small though. Even is good to leave it at.
Peach:The following all relate to peach matchups
I have thought sheik heavily counters peach in the past. Since then I have stopped attacking, and have found it to be far more even. 5-4/5-3 adv Sheik is probably good.
Marth is still peach's hardest match.
5-5/5-4 adv Falco
vs CF is even.
vs Mario 5-4 Peach, Mario can outspace the Royal Slowness herself.
She beats Luigi, 5-3. Maaaybe 5-4. She can actually stay under him and she edgeguards him sooo well.
She beats Roy a lot worse than that. At least as bad as she beats DK. Roy is one of 3 characters peach can combo.
She still beats YLink, at least 5-4 Peach.
vs Zelda, Zelda does a lot better than that. 5-3 adv peach
GW does better than that, his disjointed sex kicks are the ultimate combination of marth and falco. She can't punish his slow roll or techs nearly as well as everyone else, and she lacks a KO move. He however has his fsmash, which peach has difficulty getting inside of. 5-4 adv Peach
Roy: The following matchups apply to Roy
(Fox i'd still argue is 5-4 Roy but that's pretty radical and obviously most people wont accept/aren't ready for it)
Falco owns roy-the combos are insane, Roy has little he can do back except on FD, and roy doesn't have a solid counter to the lasers. 5-2 for Falco.
Sheik i think is a little overrated. Roy can outprioritize her, can combo her modestly, and has the most bad *** MFing edgeguard on her in the game. 5-2 adv Sheik.
Peach beats Roy harder than marth does. In my experience, peach is one of Roy's hardest matchups.
Vs marth i could see it being 5-4 adv marth.
CF is one of 3 characters roy can legitimately do OK against. 5-4 CF
Samus isn't THAT bad. Roy's overb kills missiles-unlike marth, so he isn't as easily edgeguarded in that respect. Plus he can think about outliving samus. With proper DI, he's going to kill her with Fsmash before she gets him-assuming she's not amazing at edgeguarding. 5-3/5-4 Samus.
Roy definitely does better than that against ganon. At least 5-3 Ganon, I'd argue 5-4 Ganon.
DK v Roy is still even, but you've already changed it, and no other Roy player is gonna agree with me based on old opinions.
Vs Ylink and Pika, I'm inclined to say Roy wins, but I have little experience in those matches.
Vs Yoshi, 5-5 or 5-4 in Roy's favor. I know you don't like to make big jumps with one change but PLEASE. Roy can actually combo/kill Yoshi.
Rumor has it Zelda owns Roy. So you might want to change that. I don't know from experience, but MOW says this is one of Roy's worst matches.
Roy beats Gdubs cause Gdubs dies FAST. and Roy can kinda combo him.
Opinion of Roy v Ness pending more matches vs Angry Lobster. Initially i thought this was bad too, but I'm not convinced it's that bad.
vs Bowser is 5-4 for Roy. Bowser does a LOT of damage per hit and kills Roy pretty fast with the bair. Not the easiest match for Roy.
Ok that's all I'll harp on for now. I guess i could spread out a little more, but w/e
--Mookierah has mentioned M2 does very well against Icys too.
*Minor disagreements*
I was under the impression Marth vs Fox is adv for Marth because of CCgrab -> 80% combo/death. When's the last time Ken was beaten by a Fox?
Fox vs Sheik IMO is slightly toward Sheik. small though. Even is good to leave it at.
Peach:The following all relate to peach matchups
I have thought sheik heavily counters peach in the past. Since then I have stopped attacking, and have found it to be far more even. 5-4/5-3 adv Sheik is probably good.
Marth is still peach's hardest match.
5-5/5-4 adv Falco
vs CF is even.
vs Mario 5-4 Peach, Mario can outspace the Royal Slowness herself.
She beats Luigi, 5-3. Maaaybe 5-4. She can actually stay under him and she edgeguards him sooo well.
She beats Roy a lot worse than that. At least as bad as she beats DK. Roy is one of 3 characters peach can combo.
She still beats YLink, at least 5-4 Peach.
vs Zelda, Zelda does a lot better than that. 5-3 adv peach
GW does better than that, his disjointed sex kicks are the ultimate combination of marth and falco. She can't punish his slow roll or techs nearly as well as everyone else, and she lacks a KO move. He however has his fsmash, which peach has difficulty getting inside of. 5-4 adv Peach
Roy: The following matchups apply to Roy
(Fox i'd still argue is 5-4 Roy but that's pretty radical and obviously most people wont accept/aren't ready for it)
Falco owns roy-the combos are insane, Roy has little he can do back except on FD, and roy doesn't have a solid counter to the lasers. 5-2 for Falco.
Sheik i think is a little overrated. Roy can outprioritize her, can combo her modestly, and has the most bad *** MFing edgeguard on her in the game. 5-2 adv Sheik.
Peach beats Roy harder than marth does. In my experience, peach is one of Roy's hardest matchups.
Vs marth i could see it being 5-4 adv marth.
CF is one of 3 characters roy can legitimately do OK against. 5-4 CF
Samus isn't THAT bad. Roy's overb kills missiles-unlike marth, so he isn't as easily edgeguarded in that respect. Plus he can think about outliving samus. With proper DI, he's going to kill her with Fsmash before she gets him-assuming she's not amazing at edgeguarding. 5-3/5-4 Samus.
Roy definitely does better than that against ganon. At least 5-3 Ganon, I'd argue 5-4 Ganon.
DK v Roy is still even, but you've already changed it, and no other Roy player is gonna agree with me based on old opinions.
Vs Ylink and Pika, I'm inclined to say Roy wins, but I have little experience in those matches.
Vs Yoshi, 5-5 or 5-4 in Roy's favor. I know you don't like to make big jumps with one change but PLEASE. Roy can actually combo/kill Yoshi.
Rumor has it Zelda owns Roy. So you might want to change that. I don't know from experience, but MOW says this is one of Roy's worst matches.
Roy beats Gdubs cause Gdubs dies FAST. and Roy can kinda combo him.
Opinion of Roy v Ness pending more matches vs Angry Lobster. Initially i thought this was bad too, but I'm not convinced it's that bad.
vs Bowser is 5-4 for Roy. Bowser does a LOT of damage per hit and kills Roy pretty fast with the bair. Not the easiest match for Roy.
Ok that's all I'll harp on for now. I guess i could spread out a little more, but w/e
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
Peach has the advantage over Falco.
Shiek ***** Peach.
Shiek ***** Peach.
Mankosuki
Smash Champion
Doodah's avatar changes with each post! 0_o
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
I know, I finally found one I likesies.
Fonz
Smash Ace
I agree with M2k's peach matchups. Ylink being moved to a 3 is an ok start, but its not enough. Ylink being listed as harder for peach than sheik marth or fox is still a joke. I'd play peach much more if sheiks marths and foxes started using ylink to counter me
Oh and even though there was no change in samus vs peach, going to even wouldn't be enough. Its definitely an advantage for peach.
The reverse dair chainthrow doesn't work on every character in the game, peach can actually DI out of it, and can smash DI out of the front one. Guessing which one they're going to do can be rough, but its still doable.
Peach may be easy for ICs to chaingrab, but she's certainly not easy for them to grab. It's really freaking easy to avoid the grab with ICs if you don't just sit on the ground and spam spotdodge to downsmash (even if it can be effective at times against many ICs). Nair -> grab is like the best option I suppose, but still no cake walk. A peach can turnip spam and float cancel fair the crap out of ICs shield all day with no risk of being grabbed. Its an awful matchup :/
Oh and even though there was no change in samus vs peach, going to even wouldn't be enough. Its definitely an advantage for peach.
:/
The reverse dair chainthrow doesn't work on every character in the game, peach can actually DI out of it, and can smash DI out of the front one. Guessing which one they're going to do can be rough, but its still doable.
Peach may be easy for ICs to chaingrab, but she's certainly not easy for them to grab. It's really freaking easy to avoid the grab with ICs if you don't just sit on the ground and spam spotdodge to downsmash (even if it can be effective at times against many ICs). Nair -> grab is like the best option I suppose, but still no cake walk. A peach can turnip spam and float cancel fair the crap out of ICs shield all day with no risk of being grabbed. Its an awful matchup :/
ToP CaT
Smash Lord
This is kind of dumb, its alot like the tier list, I doubt anyone is ever going to agree on anything....but I will say that zelda ***** roy hard...thats one thing i noticed...its like 5-1 or 5-2 idk but ya, I suggest finding something else to do with your free time.
Magus420
Smash Master
Speaking of which, how would you DI out of the reverse d-air chain with anyone. I don't see how it would be possible when done correctly barring some crazy smash DI upwards and then jumping out just in time, and that's only with the floaty chars that don't have doublejumps like Peach's. Why would the normal one require SDI to get out and the reverse wouldn't? That doesn't make sense. It's the same basic knockback, only you land right behind and next to them after the d-air by default as it sends in the other direction instead of a decent distance away where you can at least DI down/away and S/AS-DI away to get far enough away to not get regrabbed in time. Maybe I'm doing a different weird version of it or something
.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I beat Ken with Fox at MLG NY, Azen with Fox at MLG Chicago, Neo many times, and I beat all other Marths too both in Fox vs Marth and Marth dittos. Fox vs Marth is an even matchup, take my word for it.