All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[1048576]

Yea yea IceCleaners, we're going to do these changes ASAP. hehe

I really like the Red/White/Green color scheme, it is much more logical and it makes it easier for us to see the differences between 5-4 and 4-5.

And I think that this thread should be moved to the Back Room. Just let the most knowledgable ppl make the list, then when its done create a new thread over here so that we can get a good laugh.

Please don't move this to the back room. Reading these debates firsthand (especially from the more knowledgable players) is going to improve my play drastically because I will know what works against what characters.

 

[ToP CaT]

m2k how many frames did it take you to type that?

 

[phanna]

m2k how many frames did it take you to type that?

Your attempts at wit are not needed in this thread; he made a nice post which will help a lot in the next update. Please limit yourself to the kind of comments that belong here, such as your opinions on zelda/roy in your previous post.

 

[ToP CaT]

i couldnt help it, when i think m2k i think frames, as well as great fox play dnt get me wrong, but anyway i guess i should add my two cents yet again...link does much better against ness, thats ridiculous

 

[ToP CaT]

excuse this*

 

[exarch]

Good call M2k, it was an honest question, thanks for the answer.

Peach can DI up and towards on the Icy's normal dair chainthrow and float/umbrella out of it before getting regrabbed. So can all characters with Peach's stun time (or less), except they DJ out.
Likewise she can DI up and away on the Icy's reverse dair chainthrow and float/umbrella out of it before getting regrabbed. So can all characters with Peach's stun time (or less), except they DJ out.

Also, Falco is M2's best matchup in the top 2 tiers. 5-5, 5-4 Falco. Forward says it's even-and I don't disagree too much.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Could someone explain the Link vs. Marth matchup for me. It says Marth has a slight advantage but in my experience Link does pretty well against him. In fact I second with Link just so I can use him as a Marth counter. What am I not seeing?

 

[Skler]

Marth can kill Link pretty easily once he gets a fair or grab off. Of course, it isn't that easy to fair or grab Link through all the projectiles. Once Marth hits Link it all goes downhill from there...

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

Marth can kill Link pretty easily once he gets a fair or grab off. Of course, it isn't that easy to fair or grab Link through all the projectiles. Once Marth hits Link it all goes downhill from there...

kinda true...but then again aniki vs. ken matches say...not quite. true on first part but mabey not as true on p[art about downhill... in my opinion.

 

[mood4food77]

the reverse dair chainthrow cannot be DI'd up, i've done it against all characters (against my bro) and he couldn't jump out with anyone, the reverse dair CT is dthrow to nana dashing forward, jumping, and doing a dair, and if they are able to DI, there's not enough time for the character to jump because it takes longer for a character to recover from a hit that sends them horizontally than it does for them from a hit that sends them vertically, and in that time frame there is virtually not much time to escape, the only way to is to hope the IC player messes up

a way to prove what i said earlier on how characters take longer to recover from a hit that sends him/her horizontally than vertically is fox on falco

have fox uthrow the falco, if falco DI's up, he is able to press down b right before fox can grab him again, if he DI's to the sides, he is unable to do this

marth vs. link, it's 5-4 in link's favor.
marth has a hard time against the heavyweights, yes even bowser and DK can serve him trouble, why, because most of marth's juggles can't start until the characters are at mid percents, with the exception of samus, but it's still a lot of juggles taken away, marth loses almost all throw juggles against anyone falcon/link and heavier, for whatever reason, marth suffers from a lot of lag after throwing heavyweights, what makes it harder is that marth is also KO ********, as he has a really hard time setting up for KOs, what makes matters worse is marth does not like projectiles, even though he has an advantage over doc, mario, peach, samus, and yoshi, their projectiles save their butts from being countered, link is a heavyweight with projectiles, like samus only a faster faller, and marth cannot cancel link's projectiles like he can with the pills, fireballs, or missles, because link is capable of sending another projectile at him faster than anyone (except for samus and falco), but that's really not the main reason why link has the upperhand, the main reason is most likely link's throw juggles, once link grabs marth, the marth should expect at least another 20%, almost everytime, of if at high percents, marth will die, DI cannot save him at high percents, and link will not die as easily as marth will

 

[Skler]

I'd say Link vs Marth is even, mainly because Link relies on his grab combos and grabbing is a risky move against Marth unless it is comboed into, which requires getting into Marth's range.

I still don't get this Link vs Ness thing. If anything Link messes Ness up, he has range, projectiles, weight, power, combos and recovery. Ness has what, sparkles and the ability to turn Link around with pk thunder to prevent hookshot recoveries? That matchup should be Link with the advantage.

 

[mood4food77]

link vs. ness is in link's favor, link is heavy, has a sword, decent reach, and projectiles, it's almost, ness' worst nightmare (no where close but ehhh, needed the drama effect) it's probably 5-3 in link's favor

 

[phish-it]

Also, Tipman quit so Bushman can finally take best Ganon title.

That is quite possibly the most ******** thing I've heard all year.

 

[Zodiak-Lucien]

Mewtwo counters Ice Climbers, Taj 3 stocked, and 2-0d chus ICs in tourney last week

even though I dont know much about the match up how much did they actually play? Cause Chu could not have known how to fight mewtwo at all and taj vice versa. Not knowing how to fight a character can make quite a difference.

 

[ROB_[MCC}]

Right, not knowing how to fight a certain character can be a major problem for the casual gamer. However, I'm fairly sure Chu has enough experience against every character in the game.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Mewtwo beats samus 5-3, azen dominated chu in an old vid and a u-throw at 105% kills samus. this post is somewhat serious.

 

[phish-it]

Mewtwo beats samus 5-3, azen dominated chu in an old vid and a u-throw at 105% kills samus. this post is somewhat serious.

I think I made that a little more apparent.

 

[Fonz]

a way to prove what i said earlier on how characters take longer to recover from a hit that sends him/her horizontally than vertically is fox on falco

have fox uthrow the falco, if falco DI's up, he is able to press down b right before fox can grab him again, if he DI's to the sides, he is unable to do this

If you shoot two cannonballs out of two cannons with equal force, one straight up, and one 20 degrees past vertical. The one shot at the angle will hit the ground first, and consequently if said cannonball could jump, it would have less time to deal with the cannon fire "stun" before hitting the ground due to being airborn for a shorter time. Pretty sure it has nothing to do with verticle vs horizontal move stun :/

 

[ToP CaT]

appling physics to smash....

 

[Virgilijus]

There's nothing wrong with a little Newtonian explanation.

I also think Mewtwo has a better matchup with Falco due to his floatiness, combos on fast fallers, and recovery.

 

[StripesOrBars]

That is quite possibly the most ******** thing I've heard all year.

Yeah, if anyone else said it, you wouldn't have said anything.

So quit being a d!ck, d!ck.

Tipman owns you.

 

[Pneuma]

I also think Mewtwo has a better matchup with Falco due to his floatiness, combos on fast fallers, and recovery.

He also can be pillared very easily, is too big for any SHL to ever miss, and dies to the sides at low percents (from fsmash/dsmash). It's a terrible matchup.

 

[StripesOrBars]

LOL @ Mew2/Falco being even. That's ********.

 

[exarch]

Even if it's not even, it's CERTAINLY M2's best matchup in the top 2 tiers. As it stands in the chart now it isn't.

Taj vs Forward 1
Taj vs Forward 2
Taj vs Forward 3

It's his best match at the top of the tierlist..

 

[mood4food77]

that's taj and forward, they're like best smash buddies, i'm pretty sure taj knows forward's falco better than everyone else but forward, i think he'll get ***** by PC's falco, fox is definitely a better match-up for mewtwo, he can do everything to fox that he can do to falco, also fox dies earlier both ways and there is no SHL to worry about, just a more annoying shine

 

[phish-it]

Yeah, if anyone else said it, you wouldn't have said anything.

So quit being a d!ck, d!ck.

Tipman owns you.

What is that supposed to even mean?

 

[Mr. Ganondorf]

Marth hard counter to Mewtwo?

Your chart has Mewtwo vs Marth as utter butt ****, 5-0 in Marth's favor. I'm not going to try to claim it's not a horrible match for Mewtwo, but maybe not that bad. In crews at OC2, I saw Taj's M2 take 2 stock off Ken's Marth on Yoshi's Story of all levels. If it had been a mortal man's Marth vs Taj's M2 on a decent level, I bet Taj could've gotten some matches off. I say change the rating from 5-0 to maybe 5-1 or even 5-2.

 

[_umbra_]

Peach vs. Link is a 4
Link vs. Peach is a 5




?



lol... anyways, I'd argue that link is a harder matchup for peach, for most of the same reasons Y. Link is. It's very challenging to get through the projectile spamming of a skilled link player. This is just out of my own personal experiences, what do the rest of you think?

I'd also argue that peach vs. marth is more in marth's favor... spaced fairs > peach, although a peach well versed in the matchup and turnip spamming can stand a bit of a chance... Usually, though, it's really tough for the peach, especially if the marth player knows the matchup.

 

[freeman123]

How come Peach's odds against Link are 4-5, but Link's odds against Peach are even?

 

[Pye]

Wow, there are so many pages of suggested changes that I'm not even going to say anything. It's probably already been said.

I do have one complaint though...I'm red/green colorblind. This chart looks hella-useful, but using it is not possible for me xD. The entire bottom-left corner, all the way up to the yellow center line of ditto matchups looks like one solid color to me, and several areas of the remaining half of the chart also blend together.

It's probably a huge pain in the *** to change the chart's color, so I'm not going to ask you to do that, lol. I'll have someone help me out with reading it. +rep for this! You took the time to make a massive chart that incorperates all matchups at once in probably the best organization I've ever seen (well, partially seen anyway XD), it's the least we can do to thank you.

EDIT: What? There's no more rep? Since when? XD oh well. It's the thought that counts, right?

 

[wuthefwasthat]

taj only makes mewtwo look good...

stop arguing based on taj

lol

 

[tarheeljks]

Your chart has Mewtwo vs Marth as utter butt ****, 5-0 in Marth's favor. I'm not going to try to claim it's not a horrible match for Mewtwo, but maybe not that bad. In crews at OC2, I saw Taj's M2 take 2 stock off Ken's Marth on Yoshi's Story of all levels. If it had been a mortal man's Marth vs Taj's M2 on a decent level, I bet Taj could've gotten some matches off. I say change the rating from 5-0 to maybe 5-1 or even 5-2.

I don't think the chart should be changed just b/c Taj is very good w/Mewtwo. The chart is based on the premise of matches b/t 2 players of equal skill. So, we're talking about two players of Taj's level playing each other, not say Taj vs. me.

 

[Mr. Ganondorf]

Well, MookieRah also plays a very good M2 and I bet he could take at least one match off a Marth of equal skill. And hell, I'd even venture to say that in a best of nine between Ken's Marth and Taj's M2, with Yoshi's Story banned or at least only played once, Taj would also take at least 1 match. Unless you're going to try to say Taj is too superior to Ken for that example to count >_> All I'm saying is, M2 isn't total garbs vs. Marth, he has a chance to at least win one match between two players of equal skill.

 

[3GOD]

Well, MookieRah also plays a very good M2 and I bet he could take at least one match off a Marth of equal skill. And hell, I'd even venture to say that in a best of nine between Ken's Marth and Taj's M2, with Yoshi's Story banned or at least only played once, Taj would also take at least 1 match. Unless you're going to try to say Taj is too superior to Ken for that example to count >_> All I'm saying is, M2 isn't total garbs vs. Marth, he has a chance to at least win one match between two players of equal skill.

I consider myself to be significantly lower in skill than MookieRah, but my Marth did quite well against his Mewtwo in some friendly matches several months ago. I think I only lost one (maybe 2) game(s) out of 9 or 10. Marth owns in this matchup.

Luigi vs. Ganondorf: I already stated this once, but it didn't get updated. This is one of Luigi's toughest matchups!

 

[exarch]

Fox dies earlier? What? When does Fox ever die before Falco?

No see M2 vs Falco is M2's best matchup along the top because he's got the longest roll in the game (the best for escaping pillars), has upb out of shield (fast movement even with SHB), has absurb comboes (fair->fair->fair->fair lawl), and can kill falco (Taj uses downb -> downsmash). If you don't like that, then dtilt to fsmash works till 110%ish. Plus M2 can edgeguard falco quite competently.

Falco lacks vertical killing moves. The biggest problem against fox is he sneezes on M2 and M2 dies.

That's why it's his best matchup.
---------------------------------------
In an ancient time in an ancient land Mookierah beat Husband's marth on FD I believe. (at SAV). Dunno whether that means anything for todays metagame...

 

[freeman123]

You know, if this chart's right then the tier list should be this.

1.Marth
2.Falco
3.Fox
3.Sheik
5.Ice Climbers
5.Ganondorf
7.Samus
8.Peach
9.Captain Falcon
10.Jigglypuff
11.Dr. Mario
11.Mario
13.Ness
14.Young Link
14.Pikachu
16.Link
17.Luigi
17.Yoshi
19.Zelda
19.Mr. Game & Watch
21.Donkey Kong
22.Roy
23.Mewtwo
23.Bowser
25.Pichu
26.Kirby

 

[BigRick]

^^On what is this thing based on?

 

[phanna]

Peach vs. Link is a 4
Link vs. Peach is a 5

Peach vs Link should be a 5 as well, I somehow missed that in the changes I made in the last update, it will be corrected in the next update. I'm only worried I changed something else on accident, so thanks for keeping an open eye, let me know if you see anything else.

As for other changes to be made, I'll address those in a few days time; I just got back to college.

 

[freeman123]

^^On what is this thing based on?

The chart. I don't know how to be any more clear then that.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

The chart. I don't know how to be any more clear then that.

LOL....that made me laugh id +rep you but....yeh <_<' no rep so ill just say funny and good job ^_^'...alkso ya make a good point kirby shouldnt be on bottom.