All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[smashfan34]

thanks wesley.

Yesterday 05:20 PM
Wesley People heavily overrate the IC vs. Shiek counter. It's a soft counter at best, and I think that 5-4 IC is where it should be. It's acutally pretty hard to get that vital CG on a quick shiek that pesters you with needles and ftilts. I dunno, I'm not exceptionally well versed on this matchup, but I know it's a beating for ICs if you fail to get a grab before she gimps nana with a fair.

I think people are most likely right about Y Link vs. Peach being overrated on this chart. Pikachu vs. Jiggs on the other hand might be 1 lower for Pika, but it's surely still a beating. Whenever I play a Pika with Jiggs, it feels like fighting a fox that can't be uthrow -> rest gimped, or edgegaurded nearly as well, but is slightly less fast. Needless to say, that makes it pretty **** bad. Again, I'll leave this one to the experts, but I think Jiggs vs Pika should be 5-2 at worst for Pika. As for Y. Link vs. Peach, I'd say that 5-4 or 5-3 would be more apropriate, most likely 5-4.

Hey thanks for clearing that up for me about the ic's vs sheik thing. +rep.

 

[mood4food77]

mood4food77, you fail to realize that the number system you are suggesting has the exact same number of choices as phanna's. The only difference is that phanna's makes sense and applies to the smash world. To demonstrate this, consider the following:

0-5 = 0-10
1-5 = 1-9
2-5 = 2-8
3-5 = 3-7
4-5 = 4-6
even = 5-5
5-4 = 6-4
5-3 = 7-3
5-2 = 8-2
5-1 = 9-1
5-0 = 10-0

Now, phanna's rating system shows the number of matches in a best-of-nine set (a larger set than I've seen at any tourney, btw) that each character can be expected to win, something pertinant to smash. Your rating system shows possible combinations of numbers that add up to 10.

The rating system is fine. This is the second time you've tried to have it changed, and the second time someone has had to explain the fallacies in this particular argument of yours. Please drop it.

ok, now his numbers do make more sense to me, for whatever reason, his numbers just didn't click in my head, probably me being stubborn, i apologize

phish it, what you said does make sense, it is pretty redundant what i said, he could probably state that a 5-0 match-up does not mean that one character will always win in that match-up, it may clear up things a bit

i'm sorry for my stubbornness, i apologize to all of who i've offended, phanna keep up you're good work

and now that i look at it, phanna's best of nine match-up makes more sense

so onward for my info

peach vs. samus, i'll say this is 5-2 in peach's favor why, peach owns samus' projectile game, samus has no CCC game, and peach goes through practically anything samus has, yes samus has stuff going for her, so maybe i can consider this a 5-3 since she can get a missle on peach here and there (it's a pain) and double aerials do come into play here from samus, so in conclusion, it's 5-3 in favor of peach

ganon vs. peach, 5-3 in ganon's favor, ganon's uair goes through everything but her up and down smashes, and since peach is floaty and a midweight, ganon can juggle her with ease, getting peach up in the air is not a problem since peach likes to be in the air, also ganon's fair and bair eat peach's dsmash for breakfast, and probably lunch because peach's dsmash has almost no priority in her upperbody and these attacks can hit her upperbody while her dsmash misses ganon's body, peach's turnips do get used against her more than she would think, and sheild grabbing is not safe for peach, since that's how she gets most of her grabs anyways, this match-up is definitely in ganon's favor

lastly since this post seems like it goes on forever

bowser vs. fox, i think i'll take this as eitehr a 5-2 or a 5-3 both in fox's favor, because of bowser's uber up b, fox cannot rush in, kind of like he's fighting peach except he won't recieve like 30% and the fact that bowser isn't as fast, but anyways, even though bowser is slow, he can be a pain to fox, bowser can CT with 2 throws, fox is the only character that bowser can chain with his uthrow (for whatever reason it doesn't work on falco or falcon), it works until fox goes off the ledge, and bowser can chain the koopa claw forward throw, both can be very painful, what else, these moves can lead into practically anything bowser has (alright, 3 moves but what else does bowser really use), fox is probably the 3rd easiest character for bowser to edgegaurd (probably ganon and falcon being the top 2), fox can shine combo him but it's not as easy as you think, bowser with correct DI can slide too far for fox to combo quickly before bowser unleashes his fotress, i definitely would not consider this a 5-0 match-up in fox's favor

 

[Fletch]

peach vs. samus, i'll say this is 5-2 in peach's favor why, peach owns samus' projectile game, samus has no CCC game, and peach goes through practically anything samus has, yes samus has stuff going for her, so maybe i can consider this a 5-3 since she can get a missle on peach here and there (it's a pain) and double aerials do come into play here from samus, so in conclusion, it's 5-3 in favor of peach

ganon vs. peach, 5-3 in ganon's favor, ganon's uair goes through everything but her up and down smashes, and since peach is floaty and a midweight, ganon can juggle her with ease, getting peach up in the air is not a problem since peach likes to be in the air, also ganon's fair and bair eat peach's dsmash for breakfast, and probably lunch because peach's dsmash has almost no priority in her upperbody and these attacks can hit her upperbody while her dsmash misses ganon's body, peach's turnips do get used against her more than she would think, and sheild grabbing is not safe for peach, since that's how she gets most of her grabs anyways, this match-up is definitely in ganon's favor

Don't really want to go through these matches again, read the page before this if you want though. But anyways, I really think that Samus counters Peach, she seems to have everything that really messes with Peach (huge horizontal recovery which cannot be easily interfered with, good projectiles, floaty). Anyways, I don't want to go into this description again, so I looked up some videos of Wes (one of the best Samus's in US) vs. Vidjo (generally considered the best or at least one of the best Peach's in the US), and also providing a link to the turnip/bomb-jumping thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndQJB8b2Zd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sazQ6YGROM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beptgC5_pZc

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=69374

 

[cablepuff]

k first of all those video of fc3 are old.


imho peach is 5-4 advantage over samus imho. She gimps samus real well with turnip and shes one of the few chaacters that can go out and kill her and still make it back.

Ganon and sheik (those two should be 5-2) do a lot better on samus than peach thats for sure imho.

 

[Fonz]

Peach is one of Samus' harder matchups. I hope you included that turnip jumping thread as a joke. Its a cool technique but the thread was titled samus counters peach as a joke.

I don't think those vids are very recent. From what I hear, peach is one of wes' least favorite matchups.

 

[exarch]

DK vs Roy: I don't understand Rock, we played a couple matches last Gigabits, and you think DK has the advantage? Those matches were close as balls. 5-5 there.

Fox vs Roy: I'd argue 5-4 in ROYS FAVOR MFers. I can explain if you like.

Ganon vs Roy: At least a 5-3 in favor of ganon. Probably 5-4. Unless the Ganon is extremely proficient at CG'ing. Even then, Roy has a LOT of things going for him in this match.

Ness vs Falco: AngryLobster says Falco is easier for Ness than Fox.

Peach gets that bad vs Ylink? i don't think so.

Now if anyone wants to go discuss this intelligently, please see the Roy is Top Tier forums for character matchups.

Also Dave, Is there anyway you can distiguish the colors a little better? Like use a weatherman's color scope instead? The small differences are a little painful to make out. Props for setting this up though.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Um Fox definitely owns DK.

DK's whole game vs Fox revolves around getting a grab.

Good luck.

 

[3GOD]

Fox vs Roy: I'd argue 5-4 in ROYS FAVOR MFers. I can explain if you like.

Please explain.

Also, I agree with several other posters...Y.Link vs. Peach is probably 5-3 or 5-4 in Y.Link's favor...not 5-2 I'm pretty sure.

Luigi vs. Ganon: Probably 5-3 in Ganon's favor...he is one of the hardest matchups for Luigi...definitely worse than C. Falcon, Doc, Mario, and Peach...might also consider bumping Luigi vs. Samus to 5-3 in favor of Samus.

Luigi vs. ICs: Supposedly, Luigi has a slight advantage in this matchup, though I have little experience vs ICs.

Luigi vs. Roy: Luigi pretty much owns Roy. I would make it 5-3 in Luigi's favor.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Whoa DK looks so weak on that list. First of all... I don't think DK vs Ness is 2-8. I say it's more 3-7 since Ness has a huge range disadvantage over DK.

DK Vs Samus is also about 3-7, since most of DK's moves destroy her missles... it's not an all horrible matchup for DK. I deffinatly say it's about on par with Falco.

Donkey vs Ganon I also wouldn't call a 2-8. DK has good combo's on Ganon... 2-8 only counts for Tipman. It's also not that hard to get a grab on Ganon, since he's a large target. However you Ganon players may disagree, DK's got a slight speed advantage. I also say 3-7...

Icies destroy DK, it's by far one of DK's worst matchups. From my experiences I can say it's more of a 2-8 for poor DK. It's atleast a far harder matchup than Yoshi... >_> Which I'd say is a 4-6 or a 5-5 since it's from my personal experiences a rather even match.

 

[exarch]

Did you ever see Chu's pichu vs Aho's fox? Watch it, and take note of how many time Aho successfully connects with uthrow to uair. Roy can do this too. Which for Roy means no 0-60% combos, no 30% every grab, and no solid KO combo after 110%. Add to that Roy's already comparitively spectacular game against fox, and I think fox actually loses this one. Obviously not by much though.

--I don't think YLink beats peach worse than marth does. I think that's peach's worst matchup. Marth is the worst, Fox second worst, then sheik probably. Marth is significantly harder than fox (IMO right now). As long as peach avoids the projectiles at all costs, she has a slight advantage.

But yes Ganon owns luigi pretty hard. However, ice block spamming icys > luigi, and Roy vs Luigi is relatively even.

 

[mood4food77]

fox owns DK like DK owns fox, they both pull 0-deaths with ease on each other, basically it's a race to see who can grab who first since that's where the ****** begins, it's probably a 5-5, even match-up

ganon vs. roy is 5-1 in ganon's favor, roy has like 3 combo's that work, ganon can perform basically anything on roy, roy is one of ganon's easiest match-ups

fox vs. roy, 5-2 in fox's favor, roy lacks combo's, he really only has dtilt to nair, dtilt to b, dtilt to forward b, and dtilt fair, fox has a lot to do to roy, uthrow to uair to uair to uair, roy cannot DI out of it, that's the least of it, roy doesn't like this very much, oh and CC owns roy

y. link is a worse opponent for peach than marth, probably is peach's worst, because y. link's projectiles really mess her up, because he can throw his boomerang at really weird angles, he can manuver around peach with ease

and uhhhh lastly luigi vs. ICs is 5-4 for ICs, luigi really can't be CT but luigi can't combo much on ICs since there's two of them, it's tough for both of them but ICs have a very slight upperhand

 

[StripesOrBars]

Peach doesn't lose to Fox that bad. I dont know what phanna has it as but its probably at worst 5-3.

I'd put it at even if you're XIF.

Edit: Mood, DK CANNOT grab Fox unless Fox misses a grab, L-cancel, or DK can grab Fox's recovery too(which is quite simple).

Fox/DK is at least 5-2 in Fox's Favor.

 

[mood4food77]

from both sides i heard it's a tough match-up for both and basically a who can hit who first since it will most likely lead to a 0-death, i definitely wouldn't say 5-2, i still think it's 5-5, or 5-4 in fox's favor, but not 5-2

 

[exarch]

Funny how Roy needs combos to win a match... and how all matchups depend on combos.

Roy vs Fox, YES roy can DI out of the uthrow uair. Are you calling me a liar? And you missed Roy's best combo in that match: Dtilt Fsmash. In fact, Roy should be using little else, aside grab. 5-4 in Roy's favor. Absolutely no worse (for Roy) than 5-4 in fox's favor.

Roy vs Ganon. Roy doesn't need combos. I'd like to know your proposal for hitting Roy with ganon, when Roy can easily DD around/overb through/shield any approach Ganon has. Ganon can't beat what he can't hit. All roy needs to do is stay grounded and overb/dtilt ganon. Roy does fine in this matchup. 5-3/5-4 in ganon's favor, maybe better for Roy.

Peach vs Ylink, just avoid the projectiles and outprioritize. All of peach's aerials beat the rang.

Luigi can't get on top of icys with ice block spam. He'd have to jump over it. Overb might be a good method to get through, but i don't know. If this does work, then luigi might have a slight advantage, otherwise Icys win.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Durrr...Ganon is like the master of CCing. That might have something to do with pooping on Roy. CC - Dtilt- f-air- maybe an u-air- dead Roy. I'm pretty sure Ganon can probably chain Roy to at least some decent amount into a free aerial as well. Yeah, Roy's pretty screwed.

 

[mood4food77]

ganon can CT roy from 0-91 which then can lead to a bair, which means death to roy, i don't see any way for roy to win really

 

[exarch]

ganon can't CC when he's in the air, and he certainly does like to aerial. Roy shouldn't be approaching with aerials anyways, so Ganon wont get an easy CC like that. Roy needs to overb, dtilt (get his dtilt follow ups) and fsmash--(occassionally a full hop nair isn't a bad idea.) That's it. Roy will not approach ganon with a SH aerial when Ganon is grounded.

Ganon's CG is very difficult. maybe at higher percents, it's easier, but roy doesn't live much beyond 70 in this match anyways. Plus Roy isn't going to let you get that grab, assuming he has an inkling of skill with spacing.

This match is by no means unwinnable for Roy. However, Ganon still has the advantage. Ganon vs Roy should be a 5-4, or 5-3 for Ganon. Definitely not 5-2 or 5-1.

 

[VilNess]

NOt accurate:

Ness vs. mario: 5-1
Ness vs. Doc: 5-5

WTF?!?

 

[phanna]

NOt accurate:

Ness vs. mario: 5-1
Ness vs. Doc: 5-5

WTF?!?

Ness vs Mario is also currently listed as 5-5. You probably made a mistake for the Jigglypuff match, which is between the two, and is marked as 1-5.

An update will be forthcoming, I just couldn't pass this post for now.

I've skimmed the comments so far, and people are making excellent contributions; the next update will be far more accurate.

 

[Virgilijus]

Shouldn't Marth be a little higher against Zelda? He's quite quicker, she's floaty and has ineffective projectiles against him. I know she's hard to edgeguard and her fair and bair can punish him, but it still seems to be more so in his favor. Maybe I'm not seeing something

 

[StripesOrBars]

I hate fighting Zelda(let aone Shiek) with Marth. It's so awkward for some reason.

Down throw works for Zelda too, only, she has a Bair, too.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

As far as Ganon on Roy goes Ganon does have the advantage. Roy hates CC, it kills anything he can do, and Ganon is great at it. And to the person who said Ganon is usually in the air, well don't do it on Roy. It isn't to hard to change your strategy based on the opponent. If Ganon plays a more ground based game, using CCC to set up combos on Roy then theres nothing he can do to stop it. And even when he is in the air he can still beat on him pretty good. Keep in mind that Roy's aerials are crap so he can't meet Ganon in the air, also Ganon can follow most of his aerials with a jab to prevent shield grabbing, so the only thing Roy can do to a good aerial Ganon is try to knock him out of the air with ground attacks before he reaches him. Also I believe that Ganon has the longest range of the non-disjointed hitbox characters. His Ftilt, and Dtilt have better range than some sword attacks, so you don't even have much of a range advantage either. The only thing Roy really has going for him in this match-up is that Ganon is probably the best character for him to use his Counter on, but that isn't going to win a match on its own, and if it gets predictable then its just going to lead to you getting chaingrabbed.


EDIT: I just checked the first page. I hadn't seen it since the update, very nicely done. I like the new format.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Ganon can chain grab DK just as bad as he can Roy(since DK=Roy).

 

[mood4food77]

g&w on mario, i think g&w has the advantage, for some odd reason, g&w cannot be dthrowed at all, he stays on the ground, really messing up mario's game, making him lose about, i'm going to say a third of his juggles, this does not hold true for doc though, doc can dthrow him for some reason, i know g&w does also wierd things against fox's, falco's, bowser's, luigi's and some other character's dthrows (i don't think he can tech fox's dthrow, if he doesn't tech falco's he goes in the air a little and can be spiked, he doesn't take damage from bowser's dthrow, and luigi's dthrow works like mario's, g&w goes nowhere) i don't remember who else against g&w has a weird dthrow effect like mario's since it is the most common wierd thing to happen, and i've fought mario's with g&w and won all of them so i'll put g&w at a 5-4 advantage on mario

ganon is one of roy's worst match-ups, roy has no uthrow combo's since, like marth's, heavyweights can jump out of it at 0%, also CCC owns roy, and roy's dtilt can be DI'd up and away allowing ganon to get hit by the tip at most and follow up with a uair, it's 5-2 at most in ganon's favor

 

[Gimpyfish62]

lol... roy. XD

 

[Mew2King]

this is the most awful piece of **** list I have ever set my eyes on

 

[Mew2King]

edit - lag sucks

 

[exarch]

-Roy's Aerials are not crap, he has a disjointed hitbox. He is one of about 3 characters in the game who can beat sheik's aerials.

-Since Roy's sword is disjointed, he can hit all of Ganon's attacks without hitting Ganon-and without risking getting hit himself-with proper spacing.

-LOL counter.

-Roy doesn't rely on throw combos. He just grabs, grabattacks, and f/b/dthrows. And he can do this a lot.

-Roy doesn't approach Ganon. He plays like Marth in this match. A pansy who runs away and swats at Ganon. Roys should know how to deal with constant CCing.

-If Roy can land an uair, he can land a fair. And Fair combos to Fsmash ONTO platforms.

-Roy doesn't rely on combos to kill Ganon. All Roy players learn how and when to use an open fsmash effectively.

5-3/5-4 for Ganon

 

[Shmooguy]

this is the most awful piece of **** list I have ever set my eyes on

LOL

I was waiting for that. It was inevitable.
ahahahahah

 

[mood4food77]

ummm, ganon has disjointed aerials too, nair is the only one that's not, actually most of ganon's moves are disjointed, ganon's b, forward b, up b, down b, fsmash, and nair are the only moves he has that are not disjointed, roy's sweetspot is in the middle making him really KO ******** too, and roy cannot play like marth, he's too fast of a faller and relies a lot more heavily on one move than marth, roy cannot attack and run, why would he, only marth gets away with that and it's still not a safe idea, and roy cannot handle CCCers, CC completely stops his opportunity of juggling, and fsmsh isn't the safest move to use, it's slower than marth's and it only hits in front of him, and ganon's fair is a longer reaching disjointed KO killing powerhouse move that will get in there before roy's fsmash does, oh and did i mention that roy only has two KO moves while ganon has....too many to list

it's definitely 5-2, 5-1 in ganon's favor

 

[phanna]

this is the most awful piece of **** list I have ever set my eyes on

I'm going to assume you're talking about the chart, and not any of the lists computed by various posters in this thread.

Either you find the concept not worth while, in which case I'm not sure why you posted, or you think I could have done a better job, though not having provided an iota of constructive criticism, your post is equally as worthless.

Also I'm not sure what called for your tone and language; I had mistakenly assumed you would have been a more intelligent person, which is a shame, because having seen you at MLG Orlando, that's about all you could ever have going for you.

 

[Magus420]

Technically, just about every attack in the game is disjointed to some degree.

A key strong point of Roy's on Ganon is DD camping, but then again Ganon has pretend like he's going to f-air until the Roy runs out of room, lol.

 

[exarch]

Roy runs away from Ganon the whole match. Marth runs away from everyone the whole match. Roy plays like marth when he's against Ganon. However, Roy stays overwhelmingly grounded against ganon, using his overb, dtilt and grab to outprioritize ganon.

This is how Roy should play against Ganon. Notice Mow runs the whole match and overb's ganon out of everything. Looking at other reputible Roy vs Ganon matches on Youtube (NEO vs Rock, Ken vs Masashi, Masashi vs CJ), Ganon wins on DL and Roy wins on FD.

5-3, 5-4 in Ganon's favor.

 

[Magus420]

That isn't how you fight Roy with Ganon though

I suck at explaining such things, however, so I suppose you win

 

[poopsmellslikecrap]

nice update on it, it's much better then the half-done red and orange you had before. good work

 

[JBM falcon08]

nice job phanna, btw, how come we don't have rep anymore?

 

[phish-it]

Peach doesn't lose to Fox that bad. I dont know what phanna has it as but its probably at worst 5-3.

I'd put it at even if you're XIF.

Edit: Mood, DK CANNOT grab Fox unless Fox misses a grab, L-cancel, or DK can grab Fox's recovery too(which is quite simple).

Fox/DK is at least 5-2 in Fox's Favor.

You make it seem like Fox is physically impossible to touch. No one has these incredible superhuman reflexes where you can evade every attack and never mess up on your own.

Fox is allowed to get grabbed.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Fox isn't impossible to touch with DK, he's impossible to grab.

 

[Mew2King]

phanna I am a very smart person but most of this list is highly inaccurate, where to start I just don't know but it's just plain bad and I'm not going to waste my time making a new list myself but this is awful and several top smashers who I send this to on AIM agree with me.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Please enlighten us, oh great Mew2Kingsies.