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All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

zeex1

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Jun 12, 2006
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its obvious if your more skilled then the other player, your going to win.

this is talking about equal skill, and how the inherent advantages/disadvantages in the character will affect the outcome


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about the chart - its really good but the colors should be a little more varied.
 

Wobbles

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Every tier list and character counter assumes that both players are evenly skilled. Have you ever seen two players who were dead even in terms of skill? It's a rarity.

These are just meant to reflect the nature of the matchups. If you want, think of it like this: the worse your matchup, the better you have to be than your opponent to win it.
 

AlphaZealot

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You should note that Fox/Falco/Falcon can all be chaingrabbed by Pichu, that matchup is more even then the chart makes it appear (well, still in favor in Fox/Falco/Falco).

Pikachu versus Falco is also quite even, a grab after Falco is over 30-40% will ussually lead to the Falco's death (chain grab until you can upsmash, its that easy).
 

SandWraith

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Feb 22, 2006
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• Move your head towards and away from the screen while centering your view on the main match-up chart. It appears to me like it appears somewhat spherical, in an interesting optical illusion.
That's true! Pretty cool, though how exactly did you notice that? I assume you weren't rocking back and forth catatonically.

I like the chart, but I'll agree the green is somewhat difficult to differentiate. Nice idea though! That's an intelligent way to present a lot of information in an understandable way.
 

StripesOrBars

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phanna:

Sheik is a Ganon counter 5-0 no doubt. All shiek has to do is get one grab and gannon is chain grabbed 0 to death. Grabbing gannon is no problem for shiek either.

Ganon also counters the living hell out of DK. I'd say 5-2. Dk's shield cannot block any of gannons moves. ANY. NONE.

And Shiek counters DK too, in a 0 to death chain grabbing way.
 

Plairnkk

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phanna:

Sheik is a Ganon counter 5-0 no doubt. All shiek has to do is get one grab and gannon is chain grabbed 0 to death. Grabbing gannon is no problem for shiek either.

Ganon also counters the living hell out of DK. I'd say 5-2. Dk's shield cannot block any of gannons moves. ANY. NONE.

And Shiek counters DK too, in a 0 to death chain grabbing way.
learn to DI, sheik can't chaingrab donkey kong. lmao
 

pdk

Smash Lord
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Jul 20, 2006
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the colors used (especially green) aren't distinct enough, i think it might be much easier to read if you used 5 colors/shades instead of 3; for example, have the red at 0-5 fade into a new color in 2-5, which would fade into the middle and then into another new color at 5-2, ending with the green in 5-0
 

N64

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Love it. I'm sure it took for freakin ever to get together too, so thanks for all the time you and others put into this.

Being a pikachu dude, my only change in his matchups is to lower the extent to which he owns jiggs. Yeah, usmash kills at ridiculously low percentages, but pika has very little to lead into it, and some of his other strengths don't get much use on floaty jiggs (uair/utilt juggling, uair spiking). Also, pika's main method of racking up damage against non-ffers, namely shffl'd nairs and fairs, can be outprioritized or outspaced jiggs' bair/fair. His recovery is also admittantly useful against the wall of pain, but pika's weight allows him to still be succeptable(with improper DI) to chained bair/fairs. So, although pika's kill move is "super effective" (cheap pokemon pun) against jiggs, he has difficulties racking up damage, and then setting up a kill opportunity against a weary jiggs.
It's definately an advantage pika matchup, but I'd rate it as 5-1 or maaaaaybe 5-2 for pika, not full-blown 5-0.

All his other matchups look pretty spot on. Again nice work with this all.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Uh, just a quick thought regarding Yoshi v. Ice Climbers.

While the matchup can be extremely intimidating, I'll venture to say that the only real things they have on Yoshi (on paper, at least) are chaingrabs and back-aerial edgeguards. Yoshi's tilts outspace and outprioritize those of the ICs. Yoshi's DJC game is almost made to evade their grabs and Yoshi's own grab techniques (tech-chased standing grab, dash-grab [not so much], and neutral B) render the ICs helpless, even if just for a few moments. The range and speed of the grabs combined with the power and comboability of the throws make Yoshi somewhat competent at destroying the IC's weakest area of play--keeping them together. He also has way too many edgeguarding options on them, not to mention incredibly easy gimp kills on Nana.

I'm not saying this matchup is in Yoshi's favor or even--it certainly isn't 5-0 in favor of the ICs, though.

P.S. - Yeah, these colors need a tad more variation. >_>; This is an excellent list in terms of organization, though.
 

James Sparrow

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You should note that Fox/Falco/Falcon can all be chaingrabbed by Pichu, that matchup is more even then the chart makes it appear (well, still in favor in Fox/Falco/Falco).

Pikachu versus Falco is also quite even, a grab after Falco is over 30-40% will ussually lead to the Falco's death (chain grab until you can upsmash, its that easy).
although this is true, pika's grab ranges is one of the worst in the game, and falco's not getting grabbed game is arguably the best in the game. it's true that 30-40% grab is basically a stock, but that won't happen very often.
 

AlphaZealot

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The pika-falco matchup is listed as 5-1.

Its closer to 5-3. Thats the point I'm trying to make. Also Pika's grab range may be relatively short but his speed more than makes up for it against Falco (Falco doesn't have that much range either once your take away the shb, so Pika doesn't run that high a risk with his smaller grab range, not to mention Pika can duck the Shb).
 

$PITE

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Use the whole visible spectrum, not just green/red. It would be easier to recognize different colours than slightly different shades of green and red. Or perhaps a numerical representation (the difference between the first number and the 2nd; 5 would be a strong matchup, 0 would be even, -5 would be horrible).
 

phanna

Dread Phanna
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about the chart - its really good but the colors should be a little more varied.
I want the chart to provide a general idea of character matchups based on players of equal, talented skill. I think it does that, and I'm not really interested in basardizing the chart with more than the spectrum of 1 color to another -- I'm aware of how you can't necissarily tell exactly what 1 matchup is, but I kind of like it that way. I want a chart that makes sense from a distance, and flows nicely.

You should note that Fox/Falco/Falcon can all be chaingrabbed by Pichu, that matchup is more even then the chart makes it appear (well, still in favor in Fox/Falco/Falco).

Pikachu versus Falco is also quite even, a grab after Falco is over 30-40% will ussually lead to the Falco's death (chain grab until you can upsmash, its that easy).
Good to know about Pichu, I'll probably increase those 3 matchups by 1 point (still will be unfavorable obviously).

As for Pika, that may be true, but it seems like something about Falco overrides this:

Pika gets hard countered by Falco
Still, it's currently in there as a 1-5 match-up, so I think moving it to 2-5 would be reasonable

That's true! Pretty cool, though how exactly did you notice that? I assume you weren't rocking back and forth catatonically.
Haha no thank goodness, actually when I was working on it I would be copying the colored square and moving it to a different match-up, so I'd lean in toward the screen to get it positioned at the exact right pixel (which I've already noticed I messed up in one spot and will be fixed for the next update).

Sheik is a Ganon counter 5-0 no doubt. All shiek has to do is get one grab and gannon is chain grabbed 0 to death. Grabbing gannon is no problem for shiek either.
I'll move it down from 2-5 to 1-5 for now, if people want it down more later we'll address that.

Ganon also counters the living hell out of DK. I'd say 5-2. Dk's shield cannot block any of gannons moves. ANY. NONE.
Again I like being overly conservative, so good point, but I'll drop it from even to 3-5 for now (not just avoiding your suggestions, just doing what I think is right based on your info).

And Shiek counters DK too, in a 0 to death chain grabbing way.
learn to DI, sheik can't chaingrab donkey kong. lmao
It's currently a 2-5 match-up, does that seem fair or should a tournament DK expect to win only 1 match out of 5 versus a sheik?

It's definately an advantage pika matchup, but I'd rate it as 5-1 or maaaaaybe 5-2 for pika, not full-blown 5-0.

All his other matchups look pretty spot on. Again nice work with this all.
Thanks, and yeah I'll move it up to 5-1.

Phanna rules :D This is a good list imho. Though, Falcon losing to Luigi and Pikachu? O_O
Tope and N64 have said Pika is a soft counter for CF. Right now it's rated that a tournament Pikachu could expect to go 5-4 versus a tournament Falcon.

I can't remember where I got the match-up for CF-Luigi. Have you faught Derf with your CF? If you know the match-up, let me know about how you feel about it. It is also currently rated as a 4-5 fight for Falcon.

I'm not saying this matchup is in Yoshi's favor or even--it certainly isn't 5-0 in favor of the ICs, though.
I'll move it to 1-5, but the last person I would want to play as Yoshi in a tournament would be able Ice Climbers.

1048576's list is more accurate IMO.
I don't think the two are directly comparable, since most of his is white blocks since it's a counter chart. But if you have any actual examples of where I could improve, that would help me a lot more than just saying that mine is less accurate.

Use the whole visible spectrum, not just green/red. It would be easier to recognize different colours than slightly different shades of green and red. Or perhaps a numerical representation (the difference between the first number and the 2nd; 5 would be a strong matchup, 0 would be even, -5 would be horrible).
If you look at a given box, you can tell roughly how the match-up looks in the tournament scene. If you step back you can get an excellent overall picture. The color scheme does exactly what I want it to, so I'm going to leave it alone, but thank you for your feedback.
 

Respawn

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Very, very nice. Good work.

The chart flows very well, and it also adheres quite well to the tier list, as can be seen by the way the colors change not drastically but gradually from red to green. Personally, I like having the green and red being so close together, and agree with not putting it on the entire visible spectrum. Having such subtle differences in color gives better representation of how the tier list puts the character's overall skills in perspective, while giving you a less definite answer as to which is the best character to use, moreover saying which characters will give you the best shot.

It really gives you the idea of "you have a better chance with this character" kind of thing, and gives you a wider range of possible choices, not just counters. So if someone really sucks with one character, big deal... there are a bunch of other characters who might do just as well, allowing you to work on your specific area of expertise. Basically, you don't want just a counter chart, because that kind of limits your choices (although, it does give good information). I think that this chart provides more information than the counter chart. Once again, very nice work.

Also: after a few awkward moments in front of my monitor :laugh:, I've noticed that it really does look round-ish. Weird.
 

N64

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On the pika-falco matchup:
It's a really really really annoying matchup for pika. SHL lock pika down and almost destroy his approach (like it needed any help being bad) and pillar destroys a lot of pika's close range game. If you get stuck in your shield, usually from SHLs, it's almost a free grab or pillar setup for falco. His dair/bair win vs. pika's aerials. Most of the fight revolves around pika trying to avoid being lazored to death and trying to get in a lucky grab or uair, and then juggle or edgeguard falco as best as possible. This sounds alright, except that falco is top tier for many good reasons. He's just too good. It may not be as harsh as 5-1 (though, I still believe it is against any good falco), but it's **** close to that. As long as falco plays it safe and watches for uair and grabs, while using his natural advantages as stated before, it's a hella tough fight for pika.
 

Airo

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awesome work phanna. idano what to say
This just HAS to be stickied

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a thought:
shouldnt a counter chart represent the analytic point of view of the tier list?

if you take the matchups and represent them using numbers from 1(worst/0-5) to 11(best/5-0)
then accumulate the number's up in each row
then add the numbers together to get a number for each character.

when you read the numbers as you would top to bottom on a tier list, the numbers SHOULD be from highest to lowest.. if not... something is wrong.

agree? disagree?

when i have time.. ill do the calculation for further analysis.

-------------------

mewtwos matchup against shiek says 0-5, i would think that it is closer to 2-5
i have no real basis for this, this is from mere experience
 

phish-it

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lmao yes she can.
All you have to do is DI away and Donkey Kong can tech out of it before sheik can grab again.

Ganon also counters the living hell out of DK. I'd say 5-2. Dk's shield cannot block any of gannons moves. ANY. NONE.
From what I can remember Bum was messing Tipman up at MLG NY.



This thing is a great idea, but very inaccurate at the time.

It lists Pichu's hardest match-ups as Falco and Ness. Give me a break. NEss isn't even that good against Pichu and Falco is pichu's easiest top/high tier match up.

Pichu vs. Ice climbers is 2-5? That my friend is possibly the biggest counterpick in the game. What the hell does pichu have against Ice Climbers?

MArio/Fox/peach are also very difficult matchups that are listed to much in pichu's favor.

Roy and luigi are listed as having better matchups against fox than DK? That is also incorrect.

Ganon's best matchup is Samus? Bull****.
 

linkmastersword

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Ganon's 5 best match-ups in my opinion, I'll give an estimation on how the set turns out as well.

1. Ganon > Bowser 5-1
2. Ganon > DK 5-2
3. Ganon > Roy 5-2
4. Ganon > G&W 5-2
5. Ganon > Samus 5-3
6. Ganon > Yoshi 5-3
7. Ganon > Ness 5-3
8. Ganon > Pichu 5-3
9. Ganon > Pikachu 5-3
10. Ganon > Mewtwo 5-3

if I left out something obvious let me know, this seems about right if you ask me though, any other ganon mains want to input anything?

Phanna, you did a great job on this.
 

linkmastersword

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well, I think mewtwo is about equal with ness in difficulty.
It's his manuverability with his roll, ganon having no projectiles gets so annoying when I just miss m2 all over the place. I usually come out on top but at least the other characters way more predictable in their movements and don't have rolls that span the length of Ganon's overB attack

but that's just me, can I get some more opinions on this match up from both Ganon and M2 players.
 

Pneuma

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I appreciate this graphical representation a lot, I've been looking for someone to do something like this for a while. And I'm sure phanna doesn't magically main every character and did this entirely by himself, there were undoubtedly others (in the know) who helped him.

As for arguing the matchup, yeah, I see a few mistakes. But nothing too out there. It looks accurate to me.
 

smashfan34

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 6, 2006
Messages
187
...

it's cool to know that ice climbers ridiculously counters link 5-2. it's cool to know fox destroys link worse than sheik does. It's cool to know marth has got an advantage vs link. its cool to know samus has a huge advantage vs link. its cool to know ylink ***** link.
 

Airo

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a thought:
shouldnt a counter chart represent the analytic point of view of the tier list?

if you take the matchups and represent them using numbers from 1(worst/0-5) to 11(best/5-0)
then accumulate the number's up in each row
then add the numbers together to get a number for each character.

when you read the numbers as you would top to bottom on a tier list, the numbers SHOULD be from highest to lowest.. if not... something is wrong.

agree? disagree?

when i have time.. ill do the calculation for further analysis.
in theory, the tier list is based on metagame, which in turn translates into how well a character generally fairs against other characters.
so
in theory, a counter chart should analyticly represent the tier list

so i did what i mentioned i would do
here are the results =]

fox-------198
falco-----200
sheik-----209
marth----213
peach----186
cfalcon---152
ic---------203
samus----181
doc-------168
jpuff------173
mario-----159
ganon----169
link-------134
luigi-------165
dk--------136
roy--------132
ylink------145
pika------147
yoshi-----136
zelda-----134
g&w------135
ness------157
bowser---95
kirby-----113
pichu-----110
mewtwo-112

in theory, reading this from top to bottom SHOULD be in order from largest to smallest.
to phanna, assuming that you agree 100% with the tier list, this is something that could help you as you tweek minor changes in your own chart.

if you people disagree with the entire concept ( that this chart should represent the tier list), then thats a different story.
 

AlphaZealot

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Actually that isn't totally accurate. Certain match ups may have more weight than other matchups. For example, Falco may **** a certain character that Fox is only moderately good at ****** (or may even be bad at ******), but in the end it doesn't matter, because that character may seldom appear in a tournament. Or take the Ice Climbers for example, where the two characters above them (Peach and Falcon) happen to be two of the best characters against them.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Hahahaha, who knows what that darn list is based on anymore.

Anyway, while this is totally up to phanna, I think it should be noted that this is a character counter chart looking at each matchup in the game separately. Once you bring the tier list in, then there's a whole lot of confusion, generalizations, irrelevant comparisons, and just general debauchery of the intended topic. I would hope we can keep this chart as an example of character matchups on a case-by-case basis.
 

Airo

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true, very true..
shiri you are so wise =]

such a troublesome tier list.. useless, false insights, impression shaping, john supplier, meaningless arguments, flame starter.... everything terrible.

i hope we can burn the tier list some day.

back to topic..

phanna said:
Thank you for your time. Since this graph is essentially an array of values 0 through 10, once we get the specifics more nailed down, I will be able to perform some very interesting matrix calculations, including a statistic tier list, and a best secondary main for each character (to counter your main's counters).
meanwhile, the list i made... when not alluding to the tier list, should still be somewhat on topic.

not to get too ahead of myself. but i think it contributes to your matrix calculations.

note: you can ask me to show my work if you wnat to.
 

Wilhelmsan

Smash Lord
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Phanna pixelated a picture of a fruit-roll-up, superimposed it on that old chart and fooled all of you. Impressive.

Nice work though. I applaud this matchup chart as both accurate and easy to use. Should still always keep it up for tweaking.
 

Icetrash

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So let me get this straight... the more red spots a character has the worse he is? If that is the case Mewtwo is not the worst character!
 

Eci4

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this is hardcore phanna... props man...

I do like how Ness has a lot better matchups than other characters in the bottom tiers... problem is he doesnt do good enough against the top 5...

I may or may not translate this over to a numbers chart as it would be easier to read printed... its quite simple toread right now actually... I dont see why people are complaining so much about variations on color...looksgreat to me
 
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