All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[mood4food77]

what point did he make that stated that kirby shouldn't be on the bottom, he sucks, this list is still almost completely wrong, there's still a lot of work to be done to make this thing 99.9% complete (since you can never have anything 100%)

zelda does a lot better on falco than she does on fox, her neutral b really screws falco up, and she can perform juggles from her up throw better on falco than on fox, fox also has the infinite drill shine on her, make it a 5-3 match-up for zelda, or a 5-2, i don't know what it is exactly though

 

[arrowhead]

your list seems a little off from what i observed. for instance, i think bowser should be at the bottom. anyways, since the tier list shows how well characters do at the current metagame, the higher tier characters' matchups should count for more than the bottom characters, lowering the placings of everyone that does worse against them. so falco should probably be first and stuff

 

[mood4food77]

bowser has match-ups in his favor, kirby doesn't, all kirby does is suck (no pun intended), the list is still way off, we need more experience people in here to help make it correct

 

[arrowhead]

oh, well my post was only referring to the list. i don't doubt that kirby is the worst character though

 

[noe3]

This list got ruined by all of you! Shame on you all!

Well, actually not all of you. Doesnt matter in the slightest anyway, there is no such thing as two equally skilled opponents, there just isn't. I really didn't like the way you just took everyone's advice, no questions asked, I especially laughed when you responded to a post that just had a hodge-podge of characters with "Ganon >" in front of it, and you did exactly what he wanted you to do, no questions asked... At first I was going to have a deep look at this, but after reading how it's been modified and such, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot poll.

I do have to admit though, you did do a nice job getting the information across, it's just too bad everyone had to jump in on the band wagon with there opinions, leaving facts behind.


EDIT: Freeman, that doesn't quite hold up (even if I did think it was accurate), because the Tier List is based on Tournaments, while this is singular match-ups, lets say Falco gets Kirby 0-5 on the list, and fox gets him 2-5, but Fox gets Falco 4-5, and the rest is even, since Kirby gets owned in the Tournament either way, even if Falco owns him more, Fox is still higher on the Tier list.

 

[freeman123]

My list isn't off at all. That's the exact order of the characters from best to worst according to the chart on the first page of this topic. We don't need to bring in any experienced anything. All we need are people who understand math & know how to read.

 

[Zink]

You could say Freeman's list is a matchup tier list, as opposed to an overall tier list.

 

[Eggz]

Phanna isn't just adding anything anyone says. I'm sure he is looking at the debates people have, and deciding based off of that, along with his own wisdom. Also, how are you creating a tier list out of a matchup chart? I'd like you to explain your method. "itz wut da chrt sez" Isn't gonna cut it for me guy. Since when is the tier list based solely off of matchups?

 

[tarheeljks]

This list got ruined by all of you! Shame on you all!

Well, actually not all of you. Doesnt matter in the slightest anyway, there is no such thing as two equally skilled opponents, there just isn't. I really didn't like the way you just took everyone's advice, no questions asked, I especially laughed when you responded to a post that just had a hodge-podge of characters with "Ganon >" in front of it, and you did exactly what he wanted you to do, no questions asked... At first I was going to have a deep look at this, but after reading how it's been modified and such, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot poll.

I do have to admit though, you did do a nice job getting the information across, it's just too bad everyone had to jump in on the band wagon with there opinions, leaving facts behind.


EDIT: Freeman, that doesn't quite hold up (even if I did think it was accurate), because the Tier List is based on Tournaments, while this is singular match-ups, lets say Falco gets Kirby 0-5 on the list, and fox gets him 2-5, but Fox gets Falco 4-5, and the rest is even, since Kirby gets owned in the Tournament either way, even if Falco owns him more, Fox is still higher on the Tier list.

Whether two people of perfectly equal skill exist is not particularly relevant. This matchup chart is meant to serve as a guide that indicates how well a given character matches up against another, all things equal. In the event that all things aren't equal, which is probably the case (as you mentioned earlier) it would't be difficult to adjust the chart accordingly based on the disparity in skill.

 

[freeman123]

Zink
You could say Freeman's list is a matchup tier list, as opposed to an overall tier list.

The matchup tier list is THE TIER LIST! Wtf did you think the tier list was for? To show how well the characters do at shuffle board?

All I'm saying is that if this chart is right then the tier list is wrong, & if the tier list is right then this chart is wrong. Who knows, maybe they're both wrong, but they can't both be right because they contradict eachother. & when two things contradict one another, one of them has to be wrong.

"Oh, but the tier list is based on the current metagame...". Well what do you think this chart was based on? It's not based on how the game was played 5 years ago. It's not based on how the game will be played 5 years from now. I don't think it's based on how the game is played in some paralell universe. The only thing this chart could possibly be based on is the "current metagame."

So there you go. You've got two things that are based on the same information, but with different results. I can't make it any clearer then that. They can't both be right.

 

[purpledrank]

how is shiek vs ic's not 5-0 in favor of ic's?

 

[NJzFinest]

Peach, Luigi, DK, Roy, Yoshi: even (5 to 5)
Falco, C. Falcon, IC, Samus, Ness: distinct advantage over link(5 to 3 )
Marth, Doc, J-puff, Mario, Ganon, Y. Link: small advantage over link (5 to 4)
Pikachu, Zelda, Kirby, Mewtwo: Link has small advantage (5 to 4)


wow, Phanna has Link completely wrong

Link=Marth, commonly accepted fact

Link>Peach, Samus, Ness, Mario/Doc and Jigglypuff. Ask Trevyn (aka Zarelid), The King, and Cpyhus on those if you disagree.

IC slighty> Link, all IC pretty much can do is grab combo Link, however, Link's use the length of his sword and his spam to control the spacing between him in IC making a grab harder to land. Just as long as the Link player plays right, the ICs can have a troublesome time.

Link ***** Roy, Zelda, Kirby and Yoshi....Spam is one of Yoshi's, Roy's, Kirby's and Zelda's worst enemies. I can't see anything that Yoshi, Kirby, Roy and Zelda can do...they all have a hard time comboing Link/effectively landing damage and also can't deal well with spam.....as people always say, "Link completely ***** in Low Tiers".

Now DK, I think he can do pretty well on Link. But not well enough to make the match even. He basically has to land a grab to effectively combo Link....and against Link's spam, that isn't necessarily easy to do....

 

[Skler]

I'd like to add that Link >>>> M2. Huge target, just as slow as Link with attacks, light, floaty and can't even combo Link that well. The matchup isn't nearly as close at 6-4, it should be more like 7-3 or even 8-2.

 

[1048576]

To freeman:

You can't just add up the numbers on the chart to determine the tier list. You can't put Marth as #1 just because he owns a few scrub characters like Mewtwo. Mewtwo has horrible matchups; therefore he is rarely played in tournaments; therefore Marth's ownage of Mewtwo is practically irrelevant. In order to calculate the tier list based off the chart, you have to weigh the matchups of the characters with better match-ups more heavily. Marth vs. Fox is much more important than Marth vs. Mewtwo. After you account for the discrepancy for characters with better matchups, you will have to re-weigh the matchups of all the characters because the numbers (the characters with better matchups) will have changed because of the first weighing. You have to repeat this procedure an infinite number of times to arrive at a true matchup tier list, and you will either find a clean cut list, or you will find that a few characters oscillate, swapping positions with each reiteration of the problem, ad infinitum.

That's the only way I can see of coming up with a tier list based off the chart. If anybody has an easier way, please contribute.

 

[NJzFinest]

ty Skyler

how is shiek vs ic's not 5-0 in favor of ic's?

Because if Sheik plays right, she stands a chance. Some people argue that IC have only a slight advantage over Sheik.

 

[Mogwai]

Please read previous posts before posting a question on this thread. Chances are that we have already discussed the issue at some point and if you disagree, feel free to re-argue the matchup intelligently.

how is shiek vs ic's not 5-0 in favor of ic's?

In this case, I think the only people who are like "OMG, ICS **** SHIEK!!!" are people who don't actually know jack about the matchup, and have just read at other places on the boards that this is a counter. Honestly, it's not that easy for IC to get a grab, and if you land a couple of fairs or a dsmash with sheik, you can make short work of nana, and then the match is infinitely easier. I can buy this matchup being 5-3 in IC favor, even though I lean towards 5-4 IC. When I was helping a friend of mine who mained IC at the time and I secondaried shiek, as long as I played as gay as is physically possible with shiek (spam ftilt, needles, spot dodge -> dsmash), he had lots of trouble getting the grab and I ended up winning a good deal of the time.

Feel free to rebut this arguement if you know more about the matchup than me, but don't try to get the chart changed by just saying IC counter shiek. Give reasons and point out why I'm wrong, if in fact I am.

 

[mood4food77]

i think ICs vs. sheik should be 5-3, not 5-4, because sheik can withstand up to ICs, but ICs still have a significant advantage over sheik, it's a soft counter, i think it went from sheik has the advantage to ICs being a really hard counter to know being a soft counter

isn't link vs. y. link one of the worst clone match-ups in the game, where one character has a pretty big advantage over the other, i'm pretty sure link has a decent advanatage over y. link, i don't see how y. link has an advantage, link's overall reach is so much greater than y. link's, y. link has probably speed, link has everything else

pika on link is more like a 5-3, i used to play pika quite a bit and i hated this match-up with a passion, used to think it was a counter, but now it's easier but it's still a tough match, link should have a little bit of a bigger advantage

The matchup tier list is THE TIER LIST! Wtf did you think the tier list was for? To show how well the characters do at shuffle board?

if the tier list was based solely on match-ups, ganon would be 5th on the list, right under falco, fox, marth, and sheik, but ganon doesn't do anywhere near as well as they do in tournaments

 

[freeman123]

1048576
You can't just add up the numbers on the chart to determine the tier list.

Yes you can.

You can't put Marth as #1 just because he owns a few scrub characters like Mewtwo.

I didn't.

Marth vs. Fox is much more important than Marth vs. Mewtwo.

Well, according to the chart, Marth beats Fox.

You have to repeat this procedure an infinite number of times to arrive at a true matchup tier list, and you will either find a clean cut list, or you will find that a few characters oscillate, swapping positions with each reiteration of the problem, ad infinitum.

I want the last 5 seconds of my life back.

That's the only way I can see of coming up with a tier list based off the chart. If anybody has an easier way, please contribute.

You just look at the chart & see what it says. Marth has 22 advantages, 1 disadvantage, & 3 even matchups. According to this chart, Marth has the advantage over almost every other character in the game(including Fox, Samus, Peach, C. Falon, ICs, ect... NOT JUST SCRUB CHARACTERS). He's evenly matched against Falco. The only character that Marth has a disadvantage against is Sheik.

Fox has 21 advantages, 2 disadvantages, & 3 even matches. 22-1-3 is better then 21-2-3. So how could anyone possibly argue that Fox should be higher on the tier list then Marth & still agree that this chart is accurate.

I for one don't know if this chart is accurate or not, although I have always said that Marth should be number 1. I'm just saying that according to the chart, what I posted would be the tier list.

 

[tarheeljks]

@ freeman: you can certainly add it up, you just can't weight the matchups evenly. It's not necessarly enough to say that Marth has more advantages than Fox ; what matters is who these advantages are against, as 1048576 said. I suppose there is something to be said for dominating crappy characters, but the matchups of potential opponents (i.e. viable tournament characters) should play a large factor.

 

[mood4food77]

this list is far from accurate, and you can't just add up then numbers because each match-up has a different degree, character A and b have the same number of advantages against the rest of the character, character A has a 5-4 advantage over fox but is even with mewtwo while character b has a 5-4 advantage over mewtwo while being even with fox, who would be higher on the tier list even though they have the same score if you add up their match-ups? character a would because of his advantage over fox

 

[phanna]

Yes you can.

You can do anything you'd like to the numbers, but it doesn't mean your results are significant, or at least are equivalent to what you call them. For instance, just adding up the row values will put Sheik and Ice Climbers higher than their relative positions in the tier list, since they have generally very favorable match-ups against lower tiers. I'm still not sure what you based your list off of, since 'the chart' could imply virtually a limitless number of lists. And since you claim your method is so simple, I'm virtually certain that it couldn't produce correct results on even a perfect version of this chart, since such a method would have to take weights and recursion into consideration, at the very least.

 

[StripesOrBars]

You know, if this chart's right then the tier list should be this.

1.Marth
2.Falco
3.Fox
3.Sheik
5.Ice Climbers
5.Ganondorf
7.Samus
8.Peach
9.Captain Falcon
10.Jigglypuff
11.Dr. Mario
11.Mario
13.Ness
14.Young Link
14.Pikachu
16.Link
17.Luigi
17.Yoshi
19.Zelda
19.Mr. Game & Watch
21.Donkey Kong
22.Roy
23.Mewtwo
23.Bowser
25.Pichu
26.Kirby

Time and time again you prove you know nothing of this game.

The tier list is a list of the characters who place well/best/better in tourneys.

Your argument is void. Just like so many others who say what you say.

Marth is obviously the overall best character in the game, but who the hell plays anyone under Luigi on the tier list in tourney?

how is shiek vs ic's not 5-0 in favor of ic's?

It's not that bad of a matchup.

Shiek players = n00bs

 

[freeman123]

Okay, fine. Let's just look at Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, C.Falcon, ICs, & Samus. If you completely ignore everybody else & only look at how well those 8 characters do against eachother, this is the order you get.

1.Marth
2.Falco
3.Fox
3.Sheik
5.Peach
5.ICs
7.Samus
8.C.Falcon

Marth isn't just ranked number one because of how he does against Mewtwo & Luigi. You guys keep saying that, & yet you don't even look at the chart. You say things like "If A & B both have equal records, but A is better against Y & B is better against Z, then A is better then B because Y is better then Z." & while that sounds really smart, no one can give me one example of a situation like that on this chart. You guys are just using made up information, while I'm going on what the chart actually says.

We have a recovery tier list on this site too. Is that just based on how well the characters recover in tournaments? And what was the information on this chart based on, if not tournaments?

 

[StripesOrBars]

Still doesn't matter, sir.

The top 5 are still the same.

I've always agreed that Marth and Falco are the best in the game, then Shiek and Fox.

But somehow Fox does better in tourney(which is a lie) according to the Broom.

 

[technomancer]

Peach, Luigi, DK, Roy, Yoshi: even (5 to 5)
Falco, C. Falcon, IC, Samus, Ness: distinct advantage over link(5 to 3 )
Marth, Doc, J-puff, Mario, Ganon, Y. Link: small advantage over link (5 to 4)
Pikachu, Zelda, Kirby, Mewtwo: Link has small advantage (5 to 4)


wow, Phanna has Link completely wrong

Link=Marth, commonly accepted fact

Link>Peach, Samus, Ness, Mario/Doc and Jigglypuff. Ask Trevyn (aka Zarelid), The King, and Cpyhus on those if you disagree.

IC slighty> Link, all IC pretty much can do is grab combo Link, however, Link's use the length of his sword and his spam to control the spacing between him in IC making a grab harder to land. Just as long as the Link player plays right, the ICs can have a troublesome time.

Link ***** Roy, Zelda, Kirby and Yoshi....Spam is one of Yoshi's, Roy's, Kirby's and Zelda's worst enemies. I can't see anything that Yoshi, Kirby, Roy and Zelda can do...they all have a hard time comboing Link/effectively landing damage and also can't deal well with spam.....as people always say, "Link completely ***** in Low Tiers".

Now DK, I think he can do pretty well on Link. But not well enough to make the match even. He basically has to land a grab to effectively combo Link....and against Link's spam, that isn't necessarily easy to do....

Yoshi's downtilt > Link all day. Link's spam isn't half as good as Falco's. Yoshi can also juggle link sideways and has dtilt and instant edgehog to edgeguard. It is apparent that you have very little experience in this matchup. Also, Link can't kill Yoshi till about 150%.

Spam doesn't touch Kirby, learn 2 spotdodge.

Lol spam > Zelda?

 

[freeman123]

Still doesn't matter, sir.

The top 5 are still the same.

I've always agreed that Marth and Falco are the best in the game, then Shiek and Fox.

But somehow Fox does better in tourney(which is a lie) according to the Broom.

Even if you only include the top 5, it would look like this:

1.Marth
1.Falco
3.Fox
3.Sheik
5.Peach

The top characters seem to consistantly stay in about the same order no matter how many characters you include or exclude. That, to me, actually adds credibility to this chart.

 

[kithkin]

freeman, tiers dont determine what characters are best exactly. in my mind it doesnt show which is best at all. just shows statistics and how likly they are to win "in any matchup" a character in top tier, does not instantly beat a character in bottom tier. it is possible for a bottom tier to actually have the advantage.

 

[arrowhead]

Even if you only include the top 5, it would look like this:

1.Marth
1.Falco
3.Fox
3.Sheik
5.Peach

The top characters seem to consistantly stay in about the same order no matter how many characters you include or exclude. That, to me, actually adds credibility to this chart.

if you include only the top 5, falco should be first. how did you come up with your list?

 

[StripesOrBars]

Falco is 1st.

 

[mood4food77]

fox is top because with the exception of falco, fox, marth, sheik, doc, mario, ness, and g&w, he has 5-3 odds or greater against every other character in the game, falco has the same as fox except i think one match-up changes against him, i think it's pichu, which goes from i think 5-2 in fox's favor to 5-3 in falco's favor, and it does even out the tier list because falco has a 5-4 advantage over falco, it's really hard to say why fox is ahead of falco

marth doesn't do the greatest against yoshi, he has an advantage but it's not a big one, it's only a 5-4 advantage, and marth does not do as well against the heavy characters (link/falcon and heavier) as fox and falco do, probably why he's lower than fox, falco and sheik, sheik pretty much ***** all low tiers and does very well in tournaments, better overall than marth does

remember, more and more people are starting to use lower tiers and becoming better, look at taj with mewtwo, he only becomely well known in the past few months, and we never realized how good pichu could be until chu dat used him, they're getting better and the match-ups are closing


can someone show me a really good kirby, i want to see one

 

[SwiftBass]

IMO

1. fox
2. marth / sheik
3. falco
4. peach

falco is good in the metagame but he isnt prolific as marth or shiek in flat out destroying 75% of all of the other characters. ex: DOC's matchup against falco goes in his favor more than the one with marth. same case with IC.

marth / shiek......ive been picking at this one for a while now and i cant figure it out so i tied them. basically they both **** all the tiers lower than them(stress on ****) and are in pratically the "prefect wieght" class.

peach.....hate her, but shes a decent tool against the metagame as well.

fox....IMO he doesnt **** some of the lower tier matchups as much as shiek / marth would but nevetheless he still does beat them. overall hes the utility man and can do it all. falco is just a man with a little less utility

EDIT: whoops this seems to have turned into a tier thread but of course someone shouldve expected this.

 

[Shiri]

Yoshi's downtilt > Link all day. Link's spam isn't half as good as Falco's. Yoshi can also juggle link sideways and has dtilt and instant edgehog to edgeguard. It is apparent that you have very little experience in this matchup. Also, Link can't kill Yoshi till about 150%.

I agree here.

While Link has a mid-range advantage on Yoshi, which is arguably his best area of play, Yoshi definitely combos the stuffing out of Link on the ground and in the air. Yoshi at close range does surprisingly well in this matchup--Yoshi doesn't do close-combat too well in his other matchups. Link's slow tilts, predictable grab, broadcasted smashes, and extreme combo vulnerability make it a very tough battle for him close range. Mid-range, I'd say Link wins and one of the reasons is that his tilts are strong enough to stop DJC approaches at reasonable percents--if they were any weaker, he'd have a problem here also. Long range combat (a.k.a. spam) is strictly stage dependent. I think Yoshi wins out here on small platform stages and Link wins on long flat stages. Not to mention Yoshi's ECE and RECE actually neutralizes any form of spam Link can come up with (except arrows, and nobody except Kubuu is smart enough to use those). Finally, Yoshi in the air gets at Link so hard, it's not funny. Infinitely more maneuverable and speedy, Yoshi tears up Link's air game something fierce. I'm not saying Link loses completely to Yoshi, but the match is more competitive than some give it credit for.

Technomancer = win.

marth doesn't do the greatest against yoshi, he has an advantage but it's not a big one, it's only a 5-4 advantage

Have you ever C-Sticked a Marth player in tourney with Yoshi? It's possibly the most beautiful form of poetic justice I've seen in a video game since I once saw King Dedede inhaling Kirby. Anyway, this I also agree on. I dunno, though; I think Marth players do worse against Yoshi than players of other characters who pick Marth to fight Yoshi (did that make sense?)...the common Marth playstyle doesn't really work on tournament Yoshis too much and I guess I've just found that Marth wins, but he just needs a different point of view to fight the match successfully (hence the player of a different character doing slightly better).

Mood4food = 2 good.

 

[NJzFinest]

Yoshi's downtilt > Link all day.

wtf...elaborate?

Link's spam isn't half as good as Falco's.

So??? It's good enough to **** Low Tiers...lol, it's good enough to make him stand a chance against characters such as Marth and Peach.

Yoshi can also juggle link sideways and has dtilt and instant edgehog to edgeguard.

He has that against numerous characters in the game >_> You might as well say Yoshi>any character because of just that. Also, exactly how easy is it to land a good juggle on Link (or anyone in general) with Yoshi?

It is apparent that you have very little experience in this matchup.

I've had Link vs Yoshi matches with DireVulcan's Yoshi, gg

Also, Link can't kill Yoshi till about 150%.

LOL, wtf

Spam doesn't touch Kirby, learn 2 spotdodge.

lol, spotdodge. Anyways...spam makes it harder for Kirby to appoarch...that's more than enough for Link.

Lol spam > Zelda?

Ask Mew2King, Azen, or Mow yourself... >_>

 

[mood4food77]

zelda ***** spam, her b is a reflector and a semi spike, it's an amazing move, it really hurts falco's approach because it's able to reflect 2 blasters from one move and deal at least 13% from the move itself

 

[NJzFinest]

Zelda doesn't **** anything. If you say that her neutral B move hurts Falco, you might as well say that a Fox camping the reflector destroys Falco's appoarch. Regardless, Link's spam isn't anything like Falco's.

 

[mood4food77]

i know, but it still hurts falco's approach a lot better than most moves do, i've killed my friend's falco with zelda only using the b move for one stock, then got *****, but it does mess up falco's approach better than fox's shine because of the extra attack it has and it does have a pretty decent reach, i think it's one of the reasons why zelda does better on falco than fox

 

[NJzFinest]

I see where you are coming from. Yes, Zelda does worse on Fox. Fox racks up damage much quicker since he has an easier time comboing and landing damage from lasers

 

[mood4food77]

you have more experience with zelda than i do, so how does the peach zelda match-up work, i think it's even but i here it's one or zelda's worst match-ups, i don't see it, it's like *****fight to the end, heck i like going back and forth with my friend saying like ***** and other stuff everytime i hit him with the toe, and he'll come back when he hits me with peach's butt, i think this match is even or might be in zelda's favor slightly, so eighter a 5-5 or 5-4 in zelda's favor

 

[NJzFinest]

you have more experience with zelda than i do, so how does the peach zelda match-up work, i think it's even but i here it's one or zelda's worst match-ups, i don't see it, it's like *****fight to the end, heck i like going back and forth with my friend saying like ***** and other stuff everytime i hit him with the toe, and he'll come back when he hits me with peach's butt, i think this match is even or might be in zelda's favor slightly, so eighter a 5-5 or 5-4 in zelda's favor

All Zelda players I have spoken to except Mow say that Zelda goes even with Peach/Zelda can hold her own. Mow says that it is one of Zelda's worst matchups. I'm beginning to think that Zelda goes even with Peach despite the fact Mow is, afterall, the best Zelda player. This vid of Hella vs Kawn is the main reason why I think this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jvrpRFC--M

Since Zelda's toe hitbox is disjointed from her body, Zelda pretty much has to keep Peach at a toes length away the whole match. Shff'ld double bairs are a savior here. Zelda has the potential to make the match troublesome for the Peach if she correctly outspaces Peach's moves and cause her to play somewhat defensive. You can totally out range her when she is airborn (either in the aerial or near the ground doing a floatcanceld move), your main problem is dealing with her absurd priority and turnips. DarknessofHeart has said that Peach is easy to combo and kill; his main example is "a nair to kick at like 95 should kill her on most stages". This match is based on the wit and stamina of both players.

 

[mood4food77]

ok, it's what i thought, i love this match-up, it's a fun one, who's the better princess, i like zelda, zelda isn't as annoying as peach either, so peach vs. zelda is 5-5