All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[Martiny2m]

the IC to shiek is only a 6?
grab 0% to death is dangerous

 

[exarch]

It's not that hard to avoid most grabs from most people...easier for sheiks too.

NJz, edgeguarding typically doesn't make a difference, but when Link dies at any percent, his huge survivability advantage is taken away. I thought it was an even match til I learned Link doesn't live till 220% every stock, but dies at 120% and less.

 

[ToP CaT]

link>y. link first of all....and peach is a hard *** match for jiggs and so is pika

 

[StripesOrBars]

Peach can't punish Jiggs, let alone kill her.

Some would consider Jiggs THE Peach counter.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It's not like Jigglypuff can kill Peach well, either. It's a very long battle that's more or less even depending on whether or not Jiggs can land a Rest.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I wouldn't say counter, but it sucks for Peach. So does a good Captain Falcon who doesn't let you breath (read darkrain, isai).

edit, just noticed ryoko posted.

 

[Martiny2m]

It is hard for jiggs to rest peach and shiek

 

[ToP CaT]

im not saying peach has the advantage, in fact i think jiggs does, its just an annoying fight when peach stays back and spams and both players play careful it can be very draining

 

[StripesOrBars]

So can any fight though.

 

[BigRick]

Peach has plenty of ways to punish Jiggs, but the lack of a strong KO move and Jiggs' recovery makes hard to score the kill. However, getting a kill on a Peach is also a hard task for Puff, he can try the ol' WOP off the stage trick, but tricky DI and insane horizontal recovery will allow Peach to get back on the stage.

I think that good turnip usage is important, and Peach's floating allows her to play the spaced aerials game against Puff. Either try to outspace with Fair, or sneak in a Nair/Bair between Jiggs' attacks. Dash attack can stuff plenty of things that Jiggs throws at ya. Sneaking in an Usmash is almost impossible if the Jiggs controls his height/spacing well. Dsmash ain't that useful in this matchup IMO, not only Jiggs spends lots of time in the air, he will either try to bait the move to get a free Rest, or CC it into rest, that s*** hurts. When fighting Puff, I always try to camp and control the middle of the stage.

I'd say about 5-5 tie or 5-4 Peach

 

[Martiny2m]

what would people say about how easily shiek can kill jiggs, because that last tourney i went to i didnt make it through pools because of this jiggs player that isnt really that good, he just kept living, her only good verticle killing moveon PAL is upsmash and thats kinda slow

 

[RyokoYaksa]

So can any fight though.

The difference here is that Jiggs lacks any sort of rush-in strategy to stop Peach from spamming. Unless Peach has a blonde moment and eats a Rest or fsmash setup she has a solid chance of overtaking Jiggs. The low % edgeguarding KOs that Jiggs specializes in simply don't work on her.

 

[mood4food77]

jiggs vs. peach is even, they practically gay the crap outta each other, peach only has a turnip to go around the WoP but it's not all that reliable, and peach's downsmash will each jiggs alive, it's basically who's being gayer wins (you know what i mean by that)

i just looked at the bottom 4 characters, why is bowser the worst out of all of them against the high tiers, in reality he's not,

he's at 3-5 odds on fox, 2-5 on falco, 2-5 on sheik, 2-5 on marth, 3-5 on peach, 3-5 on falcon, 1-5 on ICs, 3-5 on samus, 3-5 on doc, 3-5 on jiggs, 3-5 on mario, and 2-5 on ganon, he's not almost 1-5 on basically all the high tiers, and also, why are his only 2 good match-ups pichu and kirby, he's good against, out of all the low tiers, i'd say ness, luigi and DK are his worst match-ups, those are at 3-5, 2-5, 2-5 respectively, he's goes even with mewtwo, at 3-5 odds on g&w, 3-5 on zelda, i think he has an advantage on roy, like 5-4, he goes 4-5 with pika, 4-5 with y. link, and 4-5 with y. link

kirby has 3-5 odds on sheik, kirby has both 2-5 odds on the spacies, and basically 3-5 on all of mid tier except jiggs at which he's 2-5, ICs have a 5-2 advantage on him

g&w is at both 4-5 odds on the spacies, both of them, same with ness, it's more lik3 2-5 odds on marth, and other than that you're good

 

[StripesOrBars]

Jiggs is better in the air than Peach.

Jiggs out prioritizes Peach.

Jiggs has more power.

Not sure who has more range, but I'll give it to Jiggz.

The one and only thing Peach can/should do in this match, is run, pull and throw turnips.

SPAM THEM.

 

[Skler]

****, the Link vs young Link thing seems to have gone away. Oh well, anybody who doubts that Link does better in this matchup should read this thread. Well, start reading at around page 3 when people (who use Link and young Link) actually discuss the matchup. There are a few bits and pieces in there, just dig deep.

 

[ToP CaT]

i would read that but i already know

 

[NJzFinest]

link>y. link first of all....

Nah, Link has a really hard time with Y.Link (spam combos, ftw?). It's slightly in Y. Links favor

 

[LessThanThree]

i would think a slight ad for jiggs, better superior aerial capabilities take away a lot from peach's game, and a peach dash attack = a free crouch cancelled rest for jiggs, and comboing the puff is impossible for peach, but killling is difficult for peach and puff in this matchup, regardless, Jiggs should be a slight favorite

 

[mood4food77]

i always thought link had the upperhand on y. link because of the huge difference in reach on almost every move, is it because y. link can throw his boomerang at very weird angles, probably one of the reasons

yea i can say jiggs has a slight advantage on peach, but it's really slight

doesn't ganon **** pichu and ness? i know he has a harder time on g&w than both pichu and ness

 

[ChozenOne]

To be honest a Turnip spamming peach is much harder for a Jiggs player that knows how to play than a good marth. Jiggs can't really kill peach like stated earlier, and peach has Nair, Datk, Stitchfaces, Fairs, ect. Rest, and Fsmash; these alone are Jiggs KO moves against peach.. Jiggs may also have the range, but peach definitly out prioritizes her. Also a Fthrowed Turnip --> Fair seems pretty good, whereas Jiggs can't combo/rest peach at all. the only reason jiggs is where she's at on the tier list is b/c she gets quick KOs, but since she can't do that to peach her biggest advantage is gone.

at best 4-6 in peaches favor.

Good Day Sirs.

 

[1048576]

the IC to shiek is only a 6?
grab 0% to death is dangerous

Why do we care about the IC's ability to chaingrab certain characters in determining their matchups with those characters? IC's can 0-death everyone now, on any stage, remember?

 

[NJzFinest]

Don't get grabbed

 

[Goodies]

Peach vs Jiggs/Sheik Matchup

Peach vs Jiggs

Peach vs Jiggs is definitely even or at the most 6-4 in Peach's favor. The Peach can control the match greater by her use of turnips and mixing in well timed Fairs and Nairs between Jiggs' aerials to decrease the effectiveness of her WoP and racks up damage nicely. This however takes extreme patience and good spacing. Peach would have a slight advantage if she follow these guidelines.

Good Jiggs will consistently be able to punish Peach's Dsmash by CC -> Rest, her dash attack with Rest and will be able to sneak in a few Up Airs -> Rest on Peach between a few of her aerials. Of course, Jiggs has more overall priority; however, she has to stay on the offense and force Peach to stay in shield most of the match and continue to rack up damage with aerials.

Peach vs Sheik

This is definitely 3-5 or at the most 4-5 in Sheik's favor. Sheik has numerous ways in setting up running up airs on Peach and needles force Peach to play a good offensive game; however, Sheik's offense > Peach's offense overall. Fair slap on Peach's shield leaves her at a major disadvantage. Sheik has a lot of options afterwards. Some of them include Fair -> Grab, Fair -> Dsmash, Fair -> roll back. Fair -> Dtilt. It's possible to avoid the trap by WD out of shield though; however, it's essential that Peach stays on the offense and not shield a lot in this matchup.

Peach does edgeguard Sheik very nicely though. Ledgehog and force her recover on the stage can give you the option of dsmash her back off the ledge. Ryoko is definitely right about the dtilt. It leads into all sorts of wonderful combos and can caught her off guard, but requires really good spacing and is pretty situational. Best uses are FC shield stunning Sheik's shield with a Nair low on the ground -> dtilt(recommended by Mow), WD backwards -> dtilt and predictable grab setup and CC some weak aerials at low percents like her Nair or Dair.

If Sheik does get a grab is inevitable that you will take a lot of damage. DI backwards, you'll get regrab or ftilted, DI backwards, Up smash after her Dthrow. Once Peach is in killing zone, a grab to running Up Air kills her really early. Jab -> Fair can catch Peach off guard sometimes too and you might miss the Smash DI of the Fair and may kill you about 100% if near the edge or on stages with small horizontal blastlines (e.g, YS, FoD).

Sheik edgeguards Peach rather nicely too. If Peach tried to float back ledge height, Sheik can needle and use multiple ledgehop Bairs. Sheik can force Peach to parasol back on stage rather easily and perform numerous combos on her (usually from pivots to reduce predictably and grabs).

If Sheik is smart and forces Peach to shield often, Sheik should always win.

I'll provide some 1v1 vids to demonstrate these matchups. I'll play on all of the neutral in both matches to get a better idea on adjusting strats for both characters on those stages.

 

[AzN_Lep]

I know this debate with freeman about simply adding W-L-T stuff ended a few days ago, but I'm a bit late on checking threads. Anyways I went ahead and accumulated the character match-ups in a perfect world where every character was used equally. It would look something like this... ok exactly like this. This accounts for the degree in which every character counters rather than just a W-L-T.

Sheik - 186
Falco - 175
Marth - 174
Fox - 172
ICs - 164
Samus - 157
Peach - 160
CF - 154
Ganon - 151
Jiggs - 146
Doc - 140
Mario - 137
Ness - 126
Luigi - 121
Y. Link - 121
Pikachu - 120
Link - 118
Zelda - 109
DK - 108
Yoshi - 108
Mr. G&W - 106
Roy - 104
Kirby - 91
Mewtwo - 85
Pichu - 76
Bowser - 72

This would be the tier list if there was a 26 man tournament with a round robin against every player. However, this isn't how standard tournaments or any tournament for that matter should work. In actuality, although Sheik and ICs appear to be better on this chart than on the tier list, you have to keep in mind that most the characters on the lower half of the tier list arent used in tournaments too often. Even more importantly, tournaments are heavily stacked with high and top tier characters: Such as Peach and Marth for IC, and Fox and Falco for Sheiks. The '07 tier list is based off of tournament placings with characters.

However, you have to keep in mind that some characters, even in the higher tiers, are going to appear more frequently than others. So in order to get an accurate tier list from the chart you're going to have to account for the frequency of every character in any given tournament, then measure to what degree each character counters another and the likelihood that any given character is matched up with his or her counter based on how many of each character appears. In other words, neither a simple W-L-T comparison, nor an accumulative sum of character match-ups will neccessarily reflect the tier list.

EDIT: Oh, guess I shoulda read one page further, looks like most of this was already addressed, oops.

 

[tarheeljks]

heh, yeah calculated some of this stuff, but you've just reiterated my point. but no one ever answered my question of how marth ended up w/the highest score. in airo's calculation marth had the most points; how did he get that?

 

[freeman123]

Marth & Sheik each have 22 match ups in their advantage, but Sheik has 3 disadvantages while Marth only has one. I don't know wtf you guys are doing, but you apparently don't know how to read the chart.

 

[tarheeljks]

Marth & Sheik each have 22 match ups in their advantage, but Sheik has 3 disadvantages while Marth only has one. I don't know wtf you guys are doing, but you apparently don't know how to read the chart.

heh, here we go again. this is "wtf we are doing": taking the # assigned to a character for a given matchup and then summing the #'s from each of the 26 matchups. You seem only to be concerned with the # of advantages.

Here is your logic as I understand it:
Marth and Sheik have the most advantages, 22. However Marth > Sheik because he has only one disadvantage (which is Sheik ironically). Therefore Marth is the best. This argument would hold if we didn't have a method of quanitfying the advantage a given character has over another, but we do. The size of advantage is just as important as the # of advantages, b/c it indicates how often a character will win the matchup. By your logic, Marth should win the greatest percentage of matchups (against all other characters) b/c he has the most individual advantages; mathematically this is not the case. I could use a bunch of probablilities and expectations to prove it, but it suffices to say that Marth does not have the highest aggregate score and thus would not win the greatest % of matches.
Note that if you divide the aggregate score by 26, you get the average matchup for a given character. It doesn't change the order of the list, but it gives a better idea how much resistance they can expect against the field. It makes it easier to see b/c the total appears to be random #, while the average corresponds to the 0-A scale that phanna uses in the chart:

Sheik: 7.15
Falco: 6.73
Marth: 6.69
Fox: 6.62
ICs: 6.3
Samus: 6.04
Peach: 6.15
C. Falcon: 5.92
Ganon: 5.8
Jiggs: 5.61
Doc: 5.38
Mario: 5.27
Ness: 4.85
Luigi: 4.65
Y. Link: 4.65
Pikachu: 4.61
Link: 4.54
Zelda: 4.19
DK: 4.15
Yoshi: 4.15
G&W: 4.08
Roy: 4
Kirby: 3.5
Mewtwo: 3.27
Pichu: 2.92
Bowser: 2.77

Again, even though these are decimals, the #s correspond to the scale that phanna uses in his chart. For example, Sheik's average is 7.15. treat this as 7 on the scale (round down) to see that according to the chart Sheik will have about a 5 to 3 advantage on average. Bowser has 2.77, which is approx 3, so he has on average a 3 to 5 disadvantage.


So, the honor of "best character" belongs to Sheik, at least if you think that this method [unweighted average] indicates who the best character is . . .

Which I don't. In previous posts I've said that I think the matchup should be weighted according to the strength of the character/prevalence in tournament play. Compare this list to the tier list: The list above offer sthe same general groupings as the tier list, but is not the same individual ranks. The best way to evaluate the strength of a character is to look at all of the matchups, but while also paying close attention to the matchups against upper tier characters (weighted average). I'm still trying to determine how to define the weights. Any ideas?

And that is wtf we are doing.

 

[mood4food77]

i would say, take the number of each character phanna gave us (make A=10), give a degree to the character that ranks up according to the current tier list (like fox's match-up to the 26th degree) and then take the average (divide by 26), it's probably not close but it'll come close

 

[freeman123]

The size of advantage is just as important as the # of advantages

No, you're wrong. This is gonna be hard to explain...

In a tournament, a guy who was eliminated in an earlier round wouldn't rank higher because he put up a better fight then a guy who got killed two rounds later.

If A has a 9 against X & a 3 against Y, but B has a 6 against X & a 5 against Y then in my opinion B is better then A. But by your logic A would be better, because A has 12 points total & B has 11. However, just because A kills X doesn't make A better then B, because A is weak against Y. & while B doesn't defeat X as easily as A, it still gets the job done & has no disadvantage again Y.

So that's why you can't come up with an accurate order by adding all of the numbers together. I already thought of that when I first made that list, but I realised that having several good matchups is better then having a few great matchups, but adding the numbers together wouldn't reflect that accurately.

And, if that doesn't make sense to you, then I want the last 30 seconds of my life back.

 

[tarheeljks]

potential weights

@mood: this is a bit arbitary, but every scale is to some degree. let me know what you think.

Mathematically it makes sense to assign fox and falco a weight of 1 b/c they are top tier. I derive the "1" as follows: they are the best of the 26 characters so give them 26"pts" divided by the # of characters: 26/26=1.

To determine the weight of subsequent tiers do the following: Take the # of characters in all of the previous tiers. Subtract this # from 26 and divide the difference by 26. This is the weight for that tier.

High Tier: 3 characters-- Sheik, Marth, Peach.
- 2 characters are ranked above them [top tier chars], so 26-2= 24.
- 24/26= 0.92

the weight for high tier is 0.92

Middle Tier: 7 characters -- ( C.Falcon,IC, Samus, Dr. Mario, Jigglypuff, Mario, Ganondorf)
-5 characters above them [top, high tier chars], 26-5=21
-21/26= 0.81

Low Tier: 6 chars-- (Link, Luigi, DK, Roy, Y. Link, Pikachu)
- 12 chars above them, 26-12= 14
- 14/26= 0.54

Bottom tier: the other 8
- 18 chars above them, 26-18 = 8
- 8/26= 0.31

it is arguable whether all characters w/n a tier should receive the same weight, especially within the larger tiers. not sure how to reconcile that. also, at first i thought there was risk of weakening the influence of counters that happened to be bottom/middle tier, but after looking at the chart i don't think that is an issue. Peach , C.Falcon and Puff are the only ones w/what you could call actual counters in the bottom tier or lower.

feedback appreciated . . .

edit: i divided by 26 when i derived the weights so it has been standardized all ready. after aggregating the #'s, you wouldn't have to divide by 26 again.

 

[g-regulate]

EDIT actually i misread, ill give you what i think for falcon, going across the board in order.......

3 3 3 4 4 5 4 7 6 6 6 7 7 6 6 7 8 5 8 8 8 8 9 9 7 9

 

[Dice]

LOLOLOLOL since when is falcon vs fox/falco/shiek somewhat even? i remember/experience everyday those matchups being brutal buttfvck ****

G-reg speaks the truth, and you can be assured that it is the truth since G-reg is ridiculously good.

 

[tarheeljks]

No, you're wrong. This is gonna be hard to explain...

In a tournament, a guy who was eliminated in an earlier round wouldn't rank higher because he put up a better fight then a guy who got killed two rounds later.

If A has a 9 against X & a 3 against Y, but B has a 6 against X & a 5 against Y then in my opinion B is better then A. But by your logic A would be better, because A has 12 points total & B has 11. However, just because A kills X doesn't make A better then B, because A is weak against Y. & while B doesn't defeat X as easily as A, it still gets the job done & has no disadvantage again Y.

So that's why you can't come up with an accurate order by adding all of the numbers together. I already thought of that when I first made that list, but I realised that having several good matchups is better then having a few great matchups, but adding the numbers together wouldn't reflect that accurately.

And, if that doesn't make sense to you, then I want the last 30 seconds of my life back.

Regarding your X and Y example: you are assuming that the matchup against X and the matchup against Y are of equal importance or weight. B is not necessarily better than A by my logic, it just depends on the relationship b/t X and Y. If Y is better than X then you are right in saying that B is better. That is my entire justification for using the weights. Thank you for proving my point for me.

 

[mood4food77]

why can't we, because there are like 80000000 more fox's than pichu's

like if character A had an advantage on fox while character B had an advantage on pichu, but every other match-up was the same and when you added up the match-ups it came out to be exactly the same, who would be placed higher, character A because he has an advantage on fox while character B had an advantage on pichu

with your explanation, you say because A's match-up total's up more you say he's better, but B is more rounded therefore being the better choice, even though the match-up total is less, and what if Y was higher on the tier list than X and was a more popular character, who would be the better choice then, B still because he does better on average on the two characters than A does

this was directed at freeman

now taking the average of each match-up is probably teh best thing we got so far, but we can come closer, we need a better method, i would say use exponents to do it but that would really make things complicated, the numbers are way too high, we need something better

tarheel, that's probably the closest we got to getting a true match-up thing, nice going

g-reg, i wouldn't say fox, falco, and sheik **** falcon, but they are bad match-ups

 

[arrowhead]

why is fox vs ICs even

 

[g-regulate]

i agree they are bad matchups, but in my experience, a campy fox/falco/shiek really gives falcon no chance to win. its just rare to play one that good.

 

[blast_ssbb]

um why hasnt this been stickied?

 

[mood4food77]

shine can really mess up ICs but ICs can CT fox to a degree, it evens out

 

[AzN_Lep]

Lets take it your way freeman,lets say character A has a 10 against X & a 4 against Y, and B has a 6 against X & a 6 against Y. The way you seem to be explaining it, B has an absolute advantage because he has the upper hand in both match ups, meanwhile character A has a disadvantage against Y. Remember now the chart portrays the theoretical outcome of 10 matches. When analyzing character A, in this case he is guaranteed a win against X and has a .40 chance of beating Y. Now analyzing character B. He has a .60 chance of defeating X and a .60 chance of beating character Y. These numbers make it appear as if A is at a disadvantage since he has a greater chance of losing a single match. However, when analyzing A vs X/Y and B vs X/Y the two incidences ARE mutually exclusive, but NOT independant. So the chance that 'A' wins both his matches comes out to be .40 (1.00*.40) and the chance that 'B' wins both his matches is .36 (.60*.60) Even though B appears to have the absolute advantage, since he the upper hand in both matches, his chance of winning both matches is actually 10% less than character A (1-.36/.40)

 

[mood4food77]

umm, you term is wrong, the events are not mutually exclusive but are independent

mutually exclusive means that if A happens, B cannot
independent means that event A has no effect on event B

please, don't bring stat into this, i deal enough of it already at school