squaminator
Smash Ace
no, i'm an idiot.
-
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All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)
- Thread starter phanna
- Start date
I'm glad that people let me know when they find things like this, I'm not perfect, but I think this has been covered in this post:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2266186#post2266186
There's another similar discrepency; both will be fixed in the next update.
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
Umm like I said haha DJ "swiped" an mlg using just shiek. But I do disagree with the fact that its easy to use shiek at higher levels. I actually find it more difficult as people at higher levels have a number of advanced tactics to counter shiek that they dont have at lower levels.
dj used some fox against m2k, as well as against me. He definitely didnt go sheik the entire time. He also went marth against chu.
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
I mean he didnt use shiek against chu for obvious reasons, and fox is always a better choice against another shiek if you have a comparable fox plus shiek dittos = gay. He didnt use shiek the entire time but he didnt use anyone but shiek in all the games of the finals against m2k. I didnt watch them all but thats what it showed on the mlg website.
On the ride home from MLG he said that shiek is the best character in the game and ive noticed he has been using more marth and shiek than fox these days. At least from what I can tell.
On the ride home from MLG he said that shiek is the best character in the game and ive noticed he has been using more marth and shiek than fox these days. At least from what I can tell.
haha wow I love all of the over simplifications going on in this thread. Initial easiness to use and ability to win with a character at a high level of play are completely different issues. HalfDemon you are wrong in saying that learning falcos tech is easy for someone right off the bat, he is one of the more technically challenging characters to start with. Of course learning shl for a competent player won't be as hard, but that could be said about pretty much any advanced technique in the game. If you already know how to shffl, wavedash and other transferable techniques then waveshining, shl, pillaring.... all those things become easier.
Now in terms of arguing sheik or peach, it is harder to win with them at a competitive level of play because of the number of skilled foxes and falcos out there, but it is not harder to pick them up and play with them competitively. The only reason it is harder to win with them is because they have some inherent disadvantages against space animals.
Easier to use and easier to win with are not comparable ideas. It seems as though people are comparing a noob learning fox and falco or sheik for the first time to a pro sheik at a tournament facing a pro fox or falco... its not the same argument. Also using KDJ as an example for why sheik is top tier isn't valid, that is one person, you have to compare the entire tournament scene. KDJ has been doing very well with sheik at MLGs its true, he beat ken and isai also beat ken with sheik. However, fox is still KDJ's main, same with M2K. You are all acting like sheik is like bottom tier or something and needs to be raised, she's 3rd and marth is 4th for a reason. They both do respectively well at tournaments but not as well as fox/falco players on average.
The last mlg event featured KDJ, M2K, and PC Chris as top three. KDJ and M2K both main fox with Sheik/Marth as alts respectively. PC uses Falco and Fox the most. Fox/Falco are the most consistent characters.
Now in terms of opinion, of the more frequent competitive "tournament characters" I would say that ICs and Captain Falcon take the most skill to win with consistently.
Now in terms of arguing sheik or peach, it is harder to win with them at a competitive level of play because of the number of skilled foxes and falcos out there, but it is not harder to pick them up and play with them competitively. The only reason it is harder to win with them is because they have some inherent disadvantages against space animals.
Easier to use and easier to win with are not comparable ideas. It seems as though people are comparing a noob learning fox and falco or sheik for the first time to a pro sheik at a tournament facing a pro fox or falco... its not the same argument. Also using KDJ as an example for why sheik is top tier isn't valid, that is one person, you have to compare the entire tournament scene. KDJ has been doing very well with sheik at MLGs its true, he beat ken and isai also beat ken with sheik. However, fox is still KDJ's main, same with M2K. You are all acting like sheik is like bottom tier or something and needs to be raised, she's 3rd and marth is 4th for a reason. They both do respectively well at tournaments but not as well as fox/falco players on average.
The last mlg event featured KDJ, M2K, and PC Chris as top three. KDJ and M2K both main fox with Sheik/Marth as alts respectively. PC uses Falco and Fox the most. Fox/Falco are the most consistent characters.
Now in terms of opinion, of the more frequent competitive "tournament characters" I would say that ICs and Captain Falcon take the most skill to win with consistently.
NusCirtap
Smash Ace
I think KDJ used to main sheik before fox, I'm not sure though. Fox should still be number 1 though, I think marth is going to be higher soon and falco might drop a spot or two. >_> STEP IT UP PC.
It's not PC or any other Falco player's fault that Falco will be dropping, he's just an innately fragile character, and in the end, Fox and Marth are just better. Marth should be #1, then Fox, then Falco, then Sheik, then Peach., IMO, but everyone can argue all day about the ordering of top 5, so it's not really important as long as everyone can agree that they're top 5 and just leave it at that.
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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HEHE, great thread, I've been using this more and more as a advantage to learn to use random characters to my advantage, and who they are good against. Seriously, this is easily one of the best threads out there, and one of the most helpful ones=great job. 
Binx
Smash Master
I have not read all the pages but earlier I think on page 4-5 you mentions doc having a better cape, which while I dissagree because I play both mario's I feel is irrelivant in the shiek match up that you stated it in, I do agree with you that Doc has 1 more against shiek than Mario simply because you are never going to land a Fair spike against shiek, she can't be hit off the edge lolz. But yeah great list overall, I am favoriting it. Keep up the good work.
Edit: I personally beleive that Marth is the best character in the game, mostly because with proper spacing and patience he can kill any character, he is incredibly versitile, he has a very tough match up against a good falco or shiek, but I beleive those are the only characters that can truly **** him, Falcon can do well too but its easy to combo him at mid percents and he is incredibly easy to edgeguard. Marth's grab has been proven to have better range than YOSHI and his tippers can get an early stock vs any character sometimes as low as 40% to edgeguard to stock against good players, and just strait kill bad players at 40%. I think fox and falco are tied for second it depends alot on play style, falcos lasers combined once again with patience can mindgame most opponents and just control the stage, Fox with good mindgames is also a very versitile character than can take any character in the game except perhaps marth, and with an amazing down b can get 0% kills versus ANY character except SHIEK who falls to number four for being incredibly easy to use, really cheap, with an amazing grab game and rediculous Fair to top it off. Peach comes in at number five because of the **** tornado arguably the best down smash in the entire game and an incredible grab game and the ability to gimp several recoveries with turnips. If you look at the top 5 characters though most of them earn their spots with grabs which kind of upsets me, cause I hate getting grabbed, except falco, but he grabs alot too usually, cause they can lock you down with lasers and just go in for the free percent grabs to edgeguard, and a missed sweetspot equals your stock.
Edit: I personally beleive that Marth is the best character in the game, mostly because with proper spacing and patience he can kill any character, he is incredibly versitile, he has a very tough match up against a good falco or shiek, but I beleive those are the only characters that can truly **** him, Falcon can do well too but its easy to combo him at mid percents and he is incredibly easy to edgeguard. Marth's grab has been proven to have better range than YOSHI and his tippers can get an early stock vs any character sometimes as low as 40% to edgeguard to stock against good players, and just strait kill bad players at 40%. I think fox and falco are tied for second it depends alot on play style, falcos lasers combined once again with patience can mindgame most opponents and just control the stage, Fox with good mindgames is also a very versitile character than can take any character in the game except perhaps marth, and with an amazing down b can get 0% kills versus ANY character except SHIEK who falls to number four for being incredibly easy to use, really cheap, with an amazing grab game and rediculous Fair to top it off. Peach comes in at number five because of the **** tornado arguably the best down smash in the entire game and an incredible grab game and the ability to gimp several recoveries with turnips. If you look at the top 5 characters though most of them earn their spots with grabs which kind of upsets me, cause I hate getting grabbed, except falco, but he grabs alot too usually, cause they can lock you down with lasers and just go in for the free percent grabs to edgeguard, and a missed sweetspot equals your stock.
Aftermath
Smash Champion
Samus v DK is wrong.
PacStrife
Smash Ace
So, I was just wondering about the Mario vs. zelda matchup. You have it as a 6 in Mario's favor. I really don't see this. I have been going over it in my mind and I'm really not sure of any advantages Mario has in that matchup. Every aerial he has can be easily punished with a toe. He can't really combo zelda at all, therefore makes it even harder for him to kill her. Mario's only kill move is really the forward smash, so he can't even get a verticle KO against her. So basically we are left with a battle where Mario cannot approach zelda at all really. Short hoped approaches ;lead to toes and fireballs, although mostly ineffective as a projectile are even more usless as zelda has a reflector too. As long as the zelda can just space toes correctly, this match is pretty easy for her. idk maybe it's just me, but I would rather fight sheik with mario then zelda. At least you can combo sheik pretty well with him. Even though I know it still is a very undesiriable matchup.
So yeah, if someone could just help me out understanding why the mario vs. zelda matchup is set the way it is. IMO it should probably be at least 7 in zelda's favor. Great thread as always btw.
So yeah, if someone could just help me out understanding why the mario vs. zelda matchup is set the way it is. IMO it should probably be at least 7 in zelda's favor. Great thread as always btw.
TGM
Smash Lord
samus beats DK badly.
JFox
Smash Hero
What in god's green earth made anyone think that Y.Link does poorly against Ness? Seriously, what does Ness have on Y.link. He is easily comboed by Y.Link, easily edgegaurded by Y.Link's projectiles, and lacks and overall approach to thwart the spam that is Y.Link. He has no apporach that can't easily be handled.
He has a hard time edgegaurding Y.Link. He isn't necessarily easily comboed. Y.Link just doesn't use arrows and Ness can't bother with that Yo-yo glitch crap. And that is really it.
In summary, Ness can't approach, combo or edgegaurd. Y.Link spam all day, approach freely, and edgegaurd easily.
He has a hard time edgegaurding Y.Link. He isn't necessarily easily comboed. Y.Link just doesn't use arrows and Ness can't bother with that Yo-yo glitch crap. And that is really it.
In summary, Ness can't approach, combo or edgegaurd. Y.Link spam all day, approach freely, and edgegaurd easily.
D20
Smash Lord
That was probably all those Ness players talking... you know, the ones that think Ness is top tier. I main YL, and playing against Ness is just too fun. I've only lost one match to a Ness ever... and that was UmbreonMow's. I dair'd off the edge twice. I'll call 6-4 in favor of Young Link.
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
Ness is faster, can combo, and Ness can also yoyo glitch without YL having to fire an arrow first. Other than that, I see how YL could have the advantage. It's definitely not a 7 in Ness's advantage. Probably even or close to that...
For Zelda: Fox and Sheik are WAY worse than Falco. And Peach isn't that bad.. I'd say Fox 1, Sheik 1, Falco 2 or 3, Peach 4, Falcon 3...
For G+W: Falco and Peach are the worst high tier matchups. And he does *slightly* better vs. Marth and Sheik. Fox 2, Falco 1, Sheik 2 or 3, Marth 3, Peach 1, Falcon 3 or 4...
For Zelda: Fox and Sheik are WAY worse than Falco. And Peach isn't that bad.. I'd say Fox 1, Sheik 1, Falco 2 or 3, Peach 4, Falcon 3...
For G+W: Falco and Peach are the worst high tier matchups. And he does *slightly* better vs. Marth and Sheik. Fox 2, Falco 1, Sheik 2 or 3, Marth 3, Peach 1, Falcon 3 or 4...
Ness bashes YLink in Corneria!
^_^_^_^_^
^_^_^_^_^
thesage
Smash Hero
YL ***** Ness it's a 6. Link is much easier though. What kills Ness is that boomerang...
Ness CAN combo and edgeguard young link though.
Ness CAN combo and edgeguard young link though.
XSilvenX
Smash Lord
if i read that right then i agree, Link is easier for Ness than YLink. YLink's big problem overall is lack of KO moves, but since both arrows and bombs will eat PK Thunder KOing Ness isn't such a huge problem for YLink. I wouldn't give YLink a huge advantage, but I'd say he has better match results vs. Ness than Link does vs. Ness. Both are PK Fire starters with all their thrown weapons, but with YLink I gotta say its almost necessary to ledge cancel PK Fire to get the best and safest use out of it. Am I rambling again? I'll stop here unless someone asks me to go on about YLink and Ness matchup...or if I see something horribly horribly outstanding that needs to be replied to^_^
btw nice sig XSilvenX
CStrife187
Smash Journeyman
bump
great guide, don't want to see it lost.
great guide, don't want to see it lost.
-PM-
Smash Ace
this is so helpful lol
Sync99
Smash Journeyman
The Tier list should be based off the amount of points a character has across a row, not the full potential of the character. It's impossible to unlock Fox's full potential, which is why this chart actually takes into account a realistic, although still amazing, Fox. However, when looking at the chart, Falco has a total 3 points higher than Fox across his row, making him all-around better against the other characters. I'm sure these two characters aren't the only example of this.
If a chart like this can be agreed upon by the majority of tournament-level players, then perhaps the tier list should be arranged as the chart commands, the order always following the number of points a character has across a row.
It might already be much like this, but what else does the tier list take into account that the chart does not? I already mentioned potential, but that should never be considered. Potential is a problem the same way as tech skill is a problem when it comes to new smashers: they think tech skill matters more than experience against other players & characters.
One problem with this idea is that certain match-ups throw off the total, such as jigglypuff vs. pikachu or peach vs. young link. Since few pikachus or young links will appear at tournaments, the respective opposing characters' totals are thrown off by obscure match-ups. My own solution to this is to say that if there are a couple characters among the 26 that randomly fare well against better characters, those better characters have weaknesses that can be exploited, and must therefore be taken into account.
When I have the time (and a calculator) I'll post again with what the Tier List would look like if we were to arrange the characters along this method. I will be VERY embarrassed if it turns out the same!
If a chart like this can be agreed upon by the majority of tournament-level players, then perhaps the tier list should be arranged as the chart commands, the order always following the number of points a character has across a row.
It might already be much like this, but what else does the tier list take into account that the chart does not? I already mentioned potential, but that should never be considered. Potential is a problem the same way as tech skill is a problem when it comes to new smashers: they think tech skill matters more than experience against other players & characters.
One problem with this idea is that certain match-ups throw off the total, such as jigglypuff vs. pikachu or peach vs. young link. Since few pikachus or young links will appear at tournaments, the respective opposing characters' totals are thrown off by obscure match-ups. My own solution to this is to say that if there are a couple characters among the 26 that randomly fare well against better characters, those better characters have weaknesses that can be exploited, and must therefore be taken into account.
When I have the time (and a calculator) I'll post again with what the Tier List would look like if we were to arrange the characters along this method. I will be VERY embarrassed if it turns out the same!
Anther
Smash Champion
That was suggested much earlier with the topic... and what you want to do was already done... and it's flawed because of what you already said...
Just read through a couple pages of the topic instead of spending time doing what was already done...
Just read through a couple pages of the topic instead of spending time doing what was already done...
JFox
Smash Hero
Page 1, lol.
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
CF, IMO, is the hardest IC counter there is. With Samus at a close second.
Also, Kirby? Slight disadvantage against Sheik?
Also, Kirby? Slight disadvantage against Sheik?
darkshy
Smash Ace
Dude look at Sheiks numbers unreal.
Cuno56
Smash Apprentice
Is there a reason why Peach vs Link is a 4, while Link vs Peach is a 5? Discrepancy >.>;
Sync99
Smash Journeyman
Jeez sorry, but I'm not about to scroll through 80 pages to make sure someone didn't already say what I want to. The flaw that I mentioned I countered, because I was already prepared that someone had mentioned it. However, match-ups are EVERYTHING. If pika is somehow good against jiggs, then jiggs should be moved down b/c of it and pika moved up. Characters that are bad against characters that are RIGHT below them on the tier list shouldn't be a problem, as long as those characters are generally better.
And thank you for those totals.
Sync99
Smash Journeyman
Fox's total is 171, not 198, so... good job Airo and good job you for posting false information. It's not on page 1.
Magus420
Smash Master
It is on page 1 for most people, as most people change the number of posts per page so there isn't a new page after every 15 posts or whatever the default setting is.
Airo did not post false info as far as the totals go. Look at the dates. Phanna updated the chart after he made those totals, which I would assume were correct at the time. So good job you for paying attention and double posting to jump on people's nuts over nothing.
This is why it's good to change the posts per page setting. It's 'only' 30 pages if you do (still a lot in this case though
). There is also the 'Search this Thread' option up at the top you can use.
Sync99
Smash Journeyman
I'm still trying to figure out how to work this site, as for anything I may have said to offend anyone I'm sorry. I never said Airo posted false info, the guy who quoted him did by reposting Airo's totals AFTER the chart was updated.
Upper Half Totals:
Fox: 171
Falco: 175
Sheik: 186
Marth: 161
Peach: 160
Falcon: 154
IC's: 164
Samus: 157
Doc: 141
J.Puff: 146
Mario: 137
Ganon: 153
Sync99
Smash Journeyman
(Sorry about the double post, I do it all the time and not b/c of the 'Smash Child' thing, just cuz' I have ADD and don't think about things I wanna say until it's too late)
Anyway, here are the rest of the totals:
Link: 118
Luigi: 121
DK: 108
Roy: 104
Y.Link: 121
Pika: 120
Yoshi: 108
Zelda: 109
MGW: 106
Ness: 126 (whoa!)
Bowser: 72 (whoa...)
Kirby: 88
Pichu: 76
Mewtwo: 85
Looking at it again, it's unreasonable to think that a match-ups chart has anything to do with the tier list, and for the sake of showing it a little more clearly, here is what the tier list would look like if it followed the chart:
Sheik (186), Falco (175), Fox (171), IC's (164), Marth (161), Peach (160), Samus (157), Falcon (154), Ganon (153), Jigglypuff (146), Doc (141), Mario (137), Ness (126), Luigi (121)/Young Link (121), Pikachu (120), Link (118), Zelda (109), DK (108)/Yoshi (108), Mr. Game & Watch (106), Roy (104), Kirby (88), Mewtwo (85), Pichu (76), and Bowser (72)
This could be considered more of a match-ups tier. If you were a tourney-level player equally good w/ EVERY character it would be safest to choose Sheik if you have absolutely no idea who your opponent is going to be, granted many of her points come from match-ups like Bowser, etc.
Anyway, here are the rest of the totals:
Link: 118
Luigi: 121
DK: 108
Roy: 104
Y.Link: 121
Pika: 120
Yoshi: 108
Zelda: 109
MGW: 106
Ness: 126 (whoa!)
Bowser: 72 (whoa...)
Kirby: 88
Pichu: 76
Mewtwo: 85
Looking at it again, it's unreasonable to think that a match-ups chart has anything to do with the tier list, and for the sake of showing it a little more clearly, here is what the tier list would look like if it followed the chart:
Sheik (186), Falco (175), Fox (171), IC's (164), Marth (161), Peach (160), Samus (157), Falcon (154), Ganon (153), Jigglypuff (146), Doc (141), Mario (137), Ness (126), Luigi (121)/Young Link (121), Pikachu (120), Link (118), Zelda (109), DK (108)/Yoshi (108), Mr. Game & Watch (106), Roy (104), Kirby (88), Mewtwo (85), Pichu (76), and Bowser (72)
This could be considered more of a match-ups tier. If you were a tourney-level player equally good w/ EVERY character it would be safest to choose Sheik if you have absolutely no idea who your opponent is going to be, granted many of her points come from match-ups like Bowser, etc.
petre
Smash Lord
but as already stated in this thread, in the actual tier list, how well you do against fox has more weight than how well you do against bowser. if character A is good against only fox, and character B is only good against bowser, then character A will be above B in the real tier list, because youre alot more likely to have to face a fox than a bowser in a tourney.
this chart does actually does have some correlation with the real tier list, in the way that the character with the better matchups against the most played characters will have a higher spot on the tier list. its not a very...'exact' way to determine the tier list, but that's why the tier list is argued so much. there isnt really a way to use mathematical formulas to determine the tier list (unless you had data from every tourney that you could use, such as how often characters were used, and who won each matchup, as well as a way to numerically represent a player's skill level...). this matchup chart isnt trying to define the tier list, its just to see how well a character generally does against another in a match of equally skilled players (which is impossible to find anyways...).
this chart does actually does have some correlation with the real tier list, in the way that the character with the better matchups against the most played characters will have a higher spot on the tier list. its not a very...'exact' way to determine the tier list, but that's why the tier list is argued so much. there isnt really a way to use mathematical formulas to determine the tier list (unless you had data from every tourney that you could use, such as how often characters were used, and who won each matchup, as well as a way to numerically represent a player's skill level...). this matchup chart isnt trying to define the tier list, its just to see how well a character generally does against another in a match of equally skilled players (which is impossible to find anyways...).
Sync99
Smash Journeyman
Yeah I agree, totalling the charts takes into account unusual circumstances in which bowser would have to play sheik, etc. There is obviously a correlation, especially since the chart is ordered by the tier list to make it easier (otherwise the colors would be all over the place )
Making both this chart and the tier list are tough projects. Even if I was the best in the world I couldn't take responsibility to order the characters or determine how they'd fair against every other character. It's really helpful though, so all I can say is THANK YOU!
)Making both this chart and the tier list are tough projects. Even if I was the best in the world I couldn't take responsibility to order the characters or determine how they'd fair against every other character. It's really helpful though, so all I can say is THANK YOU!
Yes, this is the 3rd post made about this, thank you for your input though. The most recent time I addressed this was the 2nd post at the top of this page:
DarkKnight077
Smash Lord
Y. Link vs Link needs to be changed. Link has the advantage against Y. Link. He out ranges him, his bommerang reaches longer, his hookshot is longer. His up-B semi spike and can actually KO. Link's F-smash KOs too, his Fair is a lot better. Y. Link really has speed...that's it.
Sheik vs Marth should be a 6-4 in sheik favor not 7-3.
Most if not all pros and even noobs agree that as you get better Sheik gets easier and easier to play against.
Granted, if this tier is for the lower player and not the pro and semi pro then its fine, but its wrong if its for higher players...
Redragon
Most if not all pros and even noobs agree that as you get better Sheik gets easier and easier to play against.
Granted, if this tier is for the lower player and not the pro and semi pro then its fine, but its wrong if its for higher players...
Redragon
thebluedeath1000
Smash Champion
I agree with phanna on it despite a marth's power over sheik if he knows what hes doing. Sheik can still easily rock his small world if the sheik player knows marth well so theres really no point to give the marth props as the marth can be outclassed in matchup knowledge too.
I disagree. Sheik cannot against a good marth "rock his small world"
Marth has things going for him in the matchup and if used to his full potential it is a very close game...
Redragon