All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[DarkKnight077]

Link has the disadvantage against Y. Link? Makes no sense to me. ^^ Explain k thx.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm going to have to disagree with sheik having a 2 point advantage over Marth. It's obvious that she has the edge, but the higher you get in levels of play sheik's advantage dwindle more and more, and it seemingly gets down to the fact that sheik's setups are just easier to perform than Marth's, but they both have extremely good options when it comes to taking the other down. IMO, a 1 point advantage in Sheik's favor.

 

[skrach8]

I would like to agree with mookierah. i never thought sheik was that bad of a counter. i thought they went even actually.

 

[Plairnkk]

I'm going to have to disagree with sheik having a 2 point advantage over Marth. It's obvious that she has the edge, but the higher you get in levels of play sheik's advantage dwindle more and more, and it seemingly gets down to the fact that sheik's setups are just easier to perform than Marth's, but they both have extremely good options when it comes to taking the other down. IMO, a 1 point advantage in Sheik's favor.

yeah, at high levels it's essentially even, but most people can't see that. marth's dthrow by the ledge-->wd on >>sheik. =P

Everyone just thinks its a huge counter because a bad sheik will **** a bad marth.

A mediocre sheik will **** a mediocre marth, and a good sheik will beat a good marth.

But a PRO sheik wont **** a pro marth. It will be a very close match, for the most part.

 

[Pat/Pro]

Yeah most people agree its a soft counter at the Pro levels but its still a counter of sorts nonetheless and since he doesnt use decimal points, 1 point advantage should be the #. But if you go by Pro levels then CF should be even with Marth especially since some pros consider him a marth counter.

 

[MookieRah]

I agree with CF at least being even with Marth, and Marth is in no way a counter to CF. Basically it's a battle between how well the CF can get in his awesome setups vs how many gimp KOs and edgeguard kills Marth can get on the CF. Both are devastatingly effective, but I would have to say if anyone had the heads up in that match it would be CF, but not by much, 1 point, possibly 2 points (although i think 2 is really a stretch).

 

[flintstone]

dunno if its been mentioned earlier, cause im too lazy to read through each page, but theres no way peach has tht much of an advantage over yoshi...

 

[StripesOrBars]

Shiek has at least a 2 point advantage against Marth.

Shiek is the only character that has an advantage against Marth.

No Johns Shiek players.

(Marth for Top tier)

 

[thesage]

And I tried to pick Marth to beat up sheiks...

*tries falco* *cries*

Why are people able to handle Peach players nowadays? Has her metagame stalled the last couple of months?

 

[Rob_Gambino]

lolz at IC being hard counter to yoshi. I would love to have people counterpick IC against me.

 

[Shiri]

LOL I know, right? Up here, all the IC players pick Samus or Peach instead. :_:

It's all gravy, though. And can the Link/Yoshi matchup be changed to a deep sky blue? I hear the Yosh has naaaaaasty 0-death combos on this kid Link.

 

[MookieRah]

Shiek has at least a 2 point advantage against Marth.

Shiek is the only character that has an advantage against Marth.

Care to debate as to why? Or are you just gonna post that and us all to assume that you are right? As it stands, all I see is that sheik's setups, in general, are easier to perform, but are not more effective or more lethal than marth's setups on sheik. I don't see how that alone would qualify as a 2 point lead over marth.

 

[FoulPlay]

Link has a fair match with Peach in his column but in Peach's she has a disadvantage when fighting Link... Fix your chart, I'm too unwilling to look for more errors in your chart.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

lolz at IC being hard counter to yoshi. I would love to have people counterpick IC against me.

LOL I know, right? Up here, all the IC players pick Samus or Peach instead. :_:

It's all gravy, though. And can the Link/Yoshi matchup be changed to a deep sky blue? I hear the Yosh has naaaaaasty 0-death combos on this kid Link.

I play IC, but I sometimes use Peach or Samus. Guess it's true

But um yeah. ICs counter Yoshi IMO. Only thing Yoshi has on IC is the dtilt and maybe dsmash. IC can combo Yoshi easily and there are tons of chaingrab options. IC also has speed and priority advantage.

 

[DarkKnight077]

You do know that Link is even with Marth or that Link has somewhat of advantage over Marth.

Projectiles kill and it's hard to juggle Link than say I dunno Y. Link. Link is heavier you can't just go SHFFL Fair with Link. (I tired it not always 100% juggle). Plus Link's projectiles kill.

 

[skrach8]

^^^Link doesnt have the advantage over Marth.... at most, AT MOST, its even. Though most would say marth has the advantage. Marth is faster, can combo link if you know how to combo link, granted his weight is alittle heavy but thats what FAIR, UAIR Utilt is for. Links projectiles are **** but they dont **** hard enough to give him and advantage. Marths grab game against link is so easy. Marth destroys links recovery and vise versa (for all of the above). But def not an advantage.

 

[DarkKnight077]

^^^Link doesnt have the advantage over Marth.... at most, AT MOST, its even. Though most would say marth has the advantage. Marth is faster, can combo link if you know how to combo link, granted his weight is alittle heavy but thats what FAIR, UAIR Utilt is for. Links projectiles are **** but they dont **** hard enough to give him and advantage. Marths grab game against link is so easy. Marth destroys links recovery and vise versa (for all of the above). But def not an advantage.

Yea I say even too. Although to juggle Link you need to be around I dunno..(Can't remember( above 50% I'm thinking. Plus Link has a better recovery than Marth just a tad though, bomb jump. ^^; But it doesn't really help him that much. >.>

 

[Dark Sonic]

Care to debate as to why? Or are you just gonna post that and us all to assume that you are right? As it stands, all I see is that sheik's setups, in general, are easier to perform, but are not more effective or more lethal than marth's setups on sheik. I don't see how that alone would qualify as a 2 point lead over marth.

Her setups are MUCH easier to perform than Marth's setups. Shiek can also play very defensive against Marth and force him to make the approach. This wouldn't be a problem if Marth actually had an effective approach against a defensive Shiek. All you can do is space a SHFFL'd fair with absolutely no follow up options if she shields it. If you try to grab she can just side dodge and then tilt you because her sidedodge is pretty short. If you d-tilt she can grab you out of it so that's no longer a safe approach. There is no sure fire way to put any sort of pressure on Shiek while she can just keep throwing needles at you. Your setups may be just as lethal as hers, but you barely get a chance to take advantage of them and your the one on the offense. Shiek is definatly a soft counter for Marth because she forces him into a style of playing that makes it easier for her to set him up.

Feel free to disagree with me, but I think that Shiek definately has an advantage over Marth.
I think that two point advantage is deserved considering it is Marth's worst match up. It does even out a little as both players get better, but at best Shiek still has 6.5 on Marth.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm sorry Sonic_Wave, I don't even know where to start with what all you just said. I'll just start with what got my attention first and work my way down the line.

To put it simply, people often whine about defensive play. People ***** a lot, but it isn't some ground breaking strategy that is forged from pure awesomeness that will make you win matches. Oh noes, you are forced to make an advance, but that doesn't mean you just lost the match. That doesn't force you to take a predictable action or lead in. Marth isn't a character that you just spam tech skill with and hope to get by.

Most of what you said SonicWave could be avoided by not being predictable. I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but there are lots of characters who can take advantage of a Marth mindlessly throwing out random leadins. The downtime for most of Marth's attacks are long enough for a large portion of the cast to take advantage of, with or without a projectile. Try spamming fairs against a smart CF or Fox, they can wait patiently until they get in a grab, all the while without the need of a projectile. Same goes with sheik, she doesn't even need the needles for that. This is a problem Marth has in general, you just have to be smart and find a way inside.

If you try to grab she can just side dodge and then tilt you because her sidedodge is pretty short.

I'm not going to go through frame data or anything, but Sheik's ground dodge isn't so vastly better than many other higher end characters that it somehow makes her ungrabbable. Again, if you expect to just run in and grab any character without any sort of plan then you can almost expect failing miserably.

From what you are saying you make it sound like one should simply throw down their controller in disgust and admit defeat from the get go, and honestly if you feel that way about the matchup I can understand why you have such a hard time with it. You claim your argument is for sheik being a soft counter, yet you present a list of reasons that are so onesidedly theory gamed that it looks like you are trying to say she simply ***** Marth.

In the meantime, go here and check out the vids of the higher end marths vs higher end sheiks: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89158 Sure, the sheiks there aren't defensive whores, but feel free to present counter evidence of a pure defensive sheik destroying high end marths consistently and then I'll pay more heed to what you are saying.

 

[squaminator]

sheik player here. Marth has abilities to counter and stuff. And if you play a defensive sheik, l2feint moves to produce a sidestep the counter. everything has a counter so don't complain, mindgame. There are inherent advantanges that sheik has over marth, but it doesn't prevent marth from winning. it may be that because marth has few bad matchups, the ones that he does have are focused on more. it may be purely psychological.

Mookierah.
He's a good dude.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

In my opinion this should have links. You look at the matchup chart, click the number/color and you're instantly transported to a thread discussing the matchup. There's enough threads out there with detailed matchup info to make this a much more valuable resource.

There's bound to be a smasher out there who could easily accomplish this.

 

[KevinM]

No seriously why did bowser get so screwed over in match-ups...

I'd say bowser vs. fox is about even

 

[1048576]

Yeah, they both have fire, it has to be even.

 

[MookieRah]

In my opinion this should have links. You look at the matchup chart, click the number/color and you're instantly transported to a thread discussing the matchup. There's enough threads out there with detailed matchup info to make this a much more valuable resource.

There's bound to be a smasher out there who could easily accomplish this.

Actually this has been tried and tried many times before, and it results into a bunch of arguments between lots of people. It's also really hard to determine the lower tiered matchups because there are so few players that would know enough to argue them.

In the end, it doesn't really matter too much to be honest. For the most part we know which characters are the best and there is no point to quibble over the details IMO, unless of course you are bored and you find it entertaining. That's a good reason.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Most of what you said SonicWave could be avoided by not being predictable. I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but there are lots of characters who can take advantage of a Marth mindlessly throwing out random leadins. The downtime for most of Marth's attacks are long enough for a large portion of the cast to take advantage of, with or without a projectile. Try spamming fairs against a smart CF or Fox, they can wait patiently until they get in a grab, all the while without the need of a projectile. Same goes with sheik, she doesn't even need the needles for that. This is a problem Marth has in general, you just have to be smart and find a way inside.

I mix up my approaches quite a bit, but there aren't really any good approaches to work with. I'll admit that Marth can get some nice setups on Shiek, but if Shiek can get the same kind of setups on Marth, and more often, then doesn't she have an advantage over him in that area?

I've already watched those videos and the only time Marth got a setup in was when Shiek messed up or did a very laggy move. In these cases Marth was on the defensive.

I don't put the controller down and just give up. I also don't whine when I lose. I just realize that Shiek Does have an advantage over Marth that is difficult to overcome. I make less mistakes when fighting against Shieks because my mistakes are much easier to punish then hers.

 

[MookieRah]

only time Marth got a setup in was when Shiek messed up or did a very laggy move. In these cases Marth was on the defensive.

Didn't you say that a defensive Sheik would get in setups is when you started throwing out laggy moves? How is that different from a defensive Marth that exploits a laggy move or mistake by sheik? I watched those videos too, and those Marth's weren't on the defensive, they were just playing smart. They switched up their strategies constantly and stayed on top of things, just like the Sheik was doing. From a character vs character standpoint, we call this pretty even.

I mix up my approaches quite a bit, but there aren't really any good approaches to work with.

If an approach is flawed it doesn't matter if you switch it up, because they will see what you are doing and take advantage of it. If something doesn't work on someone then don't do it. If you are going through a set of static approaches that you do on everyone else a smart player will see through that and take advantage of it, and it won't matter how often you mix it up. People think they can get by using a few interchangeable strategies, when in all actuality they play everyone the same way.

All in all, I agree that Sheik has slight edge overall, just a slight edge. 4-6 in Sheik's favor, which is what I've been saying all a long.

 

[Skler]

I didn't read this for a while, so heres a random bit from Link vs Ness a few pages back.

Because all that stuff happens to Link even more

No, Link is not outranged more then Ness (the fair is one move that a bomb can hit Ness out of and is the only move Ness has to outrange Link except the bat) is and is not easy to edgeguard. Ness does not have better projectiles (I don't care how great PKT is, it's still slow) and can't even combo Link into kill moves or even at mid %s. Ness can't combo into his kill moves against Link, whereas Link has combos into moves that can knock Ness out of range of the stage and force him to recover, which will almost always make Ness lose a stock.

I know Ness can try a PKT edgeguard, but Link has the hookshot, the upB into the thunder, the bomb jump and other fun ways to make himself a pain to edgeguard. All Link needs to do to Ness is throw any projectile at him and then do a nair (or just hit the thunder).

I'm one of the first people to say Link sucks, but he does not have a disadvantage against Ness. Comparing Link vs Ness to Link vs Falco is insane.

 

[Mogwai]

I didn't read this for a while, so heres a random bit from Link vs Ness a few pages back.



No, Link is not outranged more then Ness (the fair is one move that a bomb can hit Ness out of and is the only move Ness has to outrange Link except the bat) is and is not easy to edgeguard. Ness does not have better projectiles (I don't care how great PKT is, it's still slow) and can't even combo Link into kill moves or even at mid %s. Ness can't combo into his kill moves against Link, whereas Link has combos into moves that can knock Ness out of range of the stage and force him to recover, which will almost always make Ness lose a stock.

I know Ness can try a PKT edgeguard, but Link has the hookshot, the upB into the thunder, the bomb jump and other fun ways to make himself a pain to edgeguard. All Link needs to do to Ness is throw any projectile at him and then do a nair (or just hit the thunder).

I'm one of the first people to say Link sucks, but he does not have a disadvantage against Ness. Comparing Link vs Ness to Link vs Falco is insane.

Yay! someone who seems to know a Ness vs low teir matchup who's not a Ness fanboy! This analysis makes good sense and I'd love to see more low teir players give excellent reasons why their character does more than just take it in the @$$ from Ness, because honestly, all this thread has gotten in the way of Ness feedback is from Ness players and it's making the chart quite lopsided in Ness's favor.

 

[thesage]

I didn't mean that Ness can outprojectile spam him, but it's easy for him to maneuver around his projectiles with his Dj. Pk fire protects Ness from the boomerang, fair protects from bombs, and yyg prevents Link from spamming arrows too much.

If you say that Ness can't combo Link into a kill move then your sadly mistaken.

The one use pkt thunder (as a projectile) in this match is for Ness to hit Link with it so he turns around midair and can't use his hookshot.Link is too slow with bomb jump recovery (if he doesn't have the bomb out already). Ness can just jump out and hit him with nair or bair. Ness' bat prevents sweetspotting the edge with hookshot. Dair takes care of Link if he tries to use up-b while jumping up. I think bat can be used there too.

Link is probably the easiest character to set up the yyg. Shielded up-b = yyg, missed arrow = yyg, missed grab = yyg. Even though those moves aren't that important, it does limit links moves. Yyg is not that hard to do. I can do it and I'm a scrub.

Ness' fair ***** Link, he combo's with it into other moves (his grab).

They both combo each other very well.

I've changed my view of the matchup since then. I used to think it was a seven, but now I think it's a six or five. If there was a 5.5 then that's what I would give it... I think Ness' matchup with ylink is a five or four. I think ylink is harder than Link and that should be shown in this chart.

(the fair is one move that a bomb can hit Ness out of and is the only move Ness has to outrange Link except the bat)

I didn't understand that at all. Please explain it.

Ness is a character that ***** low tier (except Luigi and Ylink and I'm not sure about Yoshi and Roy), but gets ***** by Jigglypuff and up.

There are other things but it's too late to post them right now.

Edit: I think Kirby and G and W are harder for Ness than Link. And Link should never be able to eat Ness' thunder. If that ever happens to Ness by a Link then that Ness sucks.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Dur..SHFFL Fair, Link is a lot heavier than Ness meaning you can just combo Ness by using SHFFL Fair.

And why Link would spam arrows? Seriously Link uses arrows for situational purposes. You don't just spam arrows. Besides Link is not all about projectile game most of the time. You have no clue what you are saying, Y. Link has work around his projectiles because lack of KO power. Link you play either offensively or defensively either using limited or no projectiles against Ness. Plus Ness has a horrid recovery that easily be taken out by the Semi Up-B spike.

And Link's grab game is also situational..as well. Next time get facts from the other..Characters.

 

[FaceFaceMcFace]

I know this has been brought up before, but it was ignored...

Why does this chart have Mario in advantage to Luigi? This makes no sense.

-Luigi is a floaty, mario cannot combo floaties worth crap, and combos are what mario has going for him. While at the same time, Luigi can combo mario rather well.

- If Mario does manage to start a combo, luigi's low lag and insane aerial priority often takes care of that; several times reversing the combo.

- The easiest way to kill Luigi is off the top, and all of Mario's kill moves (Fsmash, Dsmash, Bthrow, and Nair) send the enemy flying in a mainly horizontal direction. That is unless you hit under them with a Nair, in which case the luigi would most likely Dair you first.

- Yes, mario can edgeguard Lui great, but Weegee can edgeguard Mario just as easily.

I'm not saying that Luigi counters Mario, the matchups can actually be rather close if the mario knows the disadvantages, when combos are possible, and has good spacing since his F-smash outranges everything Luigi has. The matchup should just be flipped; 4 to 6 in Luigi's favor.

 

[Skler]

I didn't mean that Ness can outprojectile spam him, but it's easy for him to maneuver around his projectiles with his Dj. Pk fire protects Ness from the boomerang, fair protects from bombs, and yyg prevents Link from spamming arrows too much.

Ness has a slow DJ, Link has very controlling projectiles. Link's projectiles aren't supposed to deal damage, they are supposed to control matches. Ness is forced to approach or get into a bad position. You can't dance around projectiles forever. Also, the fair (used defensively) stops a bomb, but the bomb will stop the fair approach (the fair pushes the bomb away, DJCing into the bomb will make it hit you).

If you say that Ness can't combo Link into a kill move then your sadly mistaken.

Name one of these kill move combos that isn't easy to DI out of. Ness can't combo off his dthrow unless there is bad DI, Ness can't combo into the bat ever. Those are the two moves that Ness kills with (aside from bthrow, which is a very late killer).

The one use pkt thunder (as a projectile) in this match is for Ness to hit Link with it so he turns around midair and can't use his hookshot.Link is too slow with bomb jump recovery (if he doesn't have the bomb out already). Ness can just jump out and hit him with nair or bair. Ness' bat prevents sweetspotting the edge with hookshot. Dair takes care of Link if he tries to use up-b while jumping up. I think bat can be used there too.

If you PKT at a Link when he needs to hookshot he can just dodge past it and then use the hookshot. Even if you manage a hit he already got closer (via airdodge) to the stage and was just hit up and is ready to up B. You can't bat Link out of a well done upB sweetspot unless you are close to the edge (Link has a decent sweetspot). If you get close to the edge, Link can just hit you with his upB. Also, if you hit Link with a PKT you just helped him bomb jump. He wanted to go up, and you let him. You can never hit Link out of a sweetspotted hookshot unless you get between Link and the edge. The bat won't stop it.

Link is probably the easiest character to set up the yyg. Shielded up-b = yyg, missed arrow = yyg, missed grab = yyg. Even though those moves aren't that important, it does limit links moves. Yyg is not that hard to do. I can do it and I'm a scrub.

Link doesn't throw out stupid grabs. He also only uses arrows off the stage (because they suck) and Link should never upB without a sure hit. The best chance Ness has at the yyg is a missed grab, and that should happen once a game at most.

Ness' fair ***** Link, he combo's with it into other moves (his grab).

Ness has a great fair, but the bomb can stop/slow down the fair approach and get a Ness into a combo. Also, Ness can only fair into another attack (except another fair) if the Link doesn't DI correctly.

They both combo each other very well.

True, but Link has easier combos into kill moves. The fair is the only good approach Ness has and will not lead to Link getting hit far off the stage.

I've changed my view of the matchup since then. I used to think it was a seven, but now I think it's a six or five. If there was a 5.5 then that's what I would give it... I think Ness' matchup with ylink is a five or four. I think ylink is harder than Link and that should be shown in this chart.

I find Ness to be too easy to combo/edgeguard for the matchup not to be even at best for Ness. I think Link has an advantage but have never played any Ness who knows the technical crap.

(the fair is one move that a bomb can hit Ness out of and is the only move Ness has to outrange Link except the bat)

I didn't understand that at all. Please explain it.

I was trying to say (in a poorly worded way) that Ness can be hit out of the fair by a well placed bomb. Also, the fair is the only move Ness has that outranges Link, except the bat which we all know is slow.

Ness is a character that ***** low tier (except Luigi and Ylink and I'm not sure about Yoshi and Roy), but gets ***** by Jigglypuff and up.

Ness vs Link, even at best can't be called a **** matchup. Ness can get comboed quite easily and is way too easy to edgeguard to call it easy for Ness.

Edit: I think Kirby and G and W are harder for Ness than Link. And Link should never be able to eat Ness' thunder. If that ever happens to Ness by a Link then that Ness sucks.

Link can eat thunder's and still recover because he can turn himself around in the air (rang, arrow or bomb will do it), use bomb jumps with the added height of the PKT or just upb after getting hit. PKT can mess the hookshot up if used well but Link's upB covers a lot of distance. Link shouldn't be dieing below 100% in this matchup except on small stages.

Also, no way is kirby a harder matchup. I can understand GaW and his attacks that last forever but not Kirby.

 

[TrageÐy ®]

lmao
Pichu gets owned by everyone :D

 

[Rob_Gambino]

I play IC, but I sometimes use Peach or Samus. Guess it's true

But um yeah. ICs counter Yoshi IMO. Only thing Yoshi has on IC is the dtilt and maybe dsmash. IC can combo Yoshi easily and there are tons of chaingrab options. IC also has speed and priority advantage.

Are you going to FC? Yoshi vs IC, $5?

 

[Pat/Pro]

ICs murder yoshi gam, there is no doubt about it. Ill play your yoshi with IC's. A good IC can beat pretty much any great pichu or yoshi the world has to offer.

 

[TGM]

Samus vs link is a 7?!?!?!?!?!?

honestly how is this true. what does samus do that beats link? i have horrible times with link.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

ICs murder yoshi gam, there is no doubt about it. Ill play your yoshi with IC's. A good IC can beat pretty much any great pichu or yoshi the world has to offer.

Let's do this!

 

[Pat/Pro]

Let's do this!

Are you going to pound or evo east? If not go to something like VIVA LA SMASH 3 ill show you why the flamboyant dinosaur cant handle nana and popos reign of terror.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

I only plan on attending FC whatever

 

[Shiri]

Rob, when you win, I'm buying you your beverage of choice from the nearest vending machine.