All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[Mogwai]

geez, there it is in the first line, "my opinions" keep your opinions to your self we want facts

What? I gave reasons for all my opinions. When you're speculating about matchup numbers, there are no facts. Prove me wrong.

Because pillaring owns every roll, shield, and dodge Yoshi ever does, which leads into stupidly easy shine combos. The only thing Yoshi has at all in this match-up is that he can tank through a lot of kill moves, but even that doesn't matter seeing as Falco can just effortlessly add further damage until he gets the solid kill.

I meant why isn't it higher . I have no reason to think he's worse than a 7 against a low tier character. SHL > Low Tier characters. I just don't know why Yoshi would have a chance against him, and I'm wondering why this is.

EDIT: w00t!1!!!eleven!!one!!!11!!!! I got the 1000th reply.

 

[A-Laon]

What? I gave reasons for all my opinions. When you're speculating about matchup numbers, there are no facts. Prove me wrong.



I meant why isn't it higher . I have no reason to think he's worse than a 7 against a low tier character. SHL > Low Tier characters. I just don't know why Yoshi would have a chance against him, and I'm wondering why this is.

EDIT: w00t!1!!!eleven!!one!!!11!!!! I got the 1000th reply.

To be fair, again, Falco dies from everything, and Yoshi's smashes definitely qualify as "everything." Regardless, I clearly wouldn't give Yoshi any hope in this match-up.

 

[Mogwai]

To be fair, again, Falco dies from everything, and Yoshi's smashes definitely qualify as "everything." Regardless, I clearly wouldn't give Yoshi any hope in this match-up.

Right, you said it, he dies from everything. So that's why he doesn't have matchups that are 10s, but he still has complete control of lots of matchups where you only lose for being stupid and giving that up willingly. No one has trouble killing Falco when the opportunity arises, his matchups are defined by how often they can create these opportunities and just how easily they ice him.

 

[A-Laon]

Right, you said it, he dies from everything. So that's why he doesn't have matchups that are 10s, but he still has complete control of lots of matchups where you only lose for being stupid and giving that up willingly. No one has trouble killing Falco when the opportunity arises, his matchups are defined by how often they can create these opportunities and just how easily they ice him.

Actually, there is but one match-up that I would argue to potentially be a 10 for Falco, and that would be Bowser. As far as I know, have seen, and have experienced, the match-up is absolutely impossible in every way. Yes, anybody could kill Falco... even Bowser -- but can you honestly ever see a Bowser beating a Falco to taking 4 stocks? I can't, and that's what every point on this chart represents.

 

[captainlukey]

What? I gave reasons for all my opinions. When you're speculating about matchup numbers, there are no facts. Prove me wrong.



I meant why isn't it higher . I have no reason to think he's worse than a 7 against a low tier character. SHL > Low Tier characters. I just don't know why Yoshi would have a chance against him, and I'm wondering why this is.

EDIT: w00t!1!!!eleven!!one!!!11!!!! I got the 1000th reply.

well if there are no facts, there should be no matchup chart.... there proven wrong...
so all this based on people opinions is it......
urgh

 

[A-Laon]

well if there are no facts, there should be no matchup chart

Sorry, that's your opinion.

 

[Zankoku]

so all this based on people opinions is it......
urgh

You hit the proverbial nail on the head, there.

 

[Mogwai]

well if there are no facts, there should be no matchup chart.... there proven wrong...

Oh, my bad, I didn't realize that you could prove a statement wrong by stating something completely unrelated. I thought you had to give an example of a fact there to prove me wrong. Since that's not the case. . .

Zelda has a really crappy taunt. There. Just proved your whole argument wrong.

so all this based on people opinions is it......
urgh

Seriously, WTF are you looking for? We're doing the best we can to analyse every matchups in's and out's, that's the best you can do. Obviously there are flaws with this, but you can't get concrete data on this. So... GF HL finding complete objectivity.

 

[thesage]

I'll try to explain Ness' matchups as best as I can... from hardest to easiest...

Vs. Peach:
Her range beats Ness' speed, all that Ness can do against her is chain his fair (which is only possible when he can predict her DI). Peach has easy edgeguarding. All Ness can do to a recovering peach is pk thunder juggle her. The only way that I can see Ness getting in any of his kill moves in this matchup are:

1. The Peach is somehow of the stage without her float or dj. That makes her f-smash bait.
2. She is above Ness at high damage = djc uair (easiest to do, but the situation hardly happens and her dair can prevent this I think.... not sure)
3. She misses an L-cancel when she shffls, again it doesn't happen but leads to a b-throw or bair....

Overall Ness can combo Peach (in the form of his djc'ed aerials), but as usual it's just not good enough... Peach gays him too easily. Interestingly since Ness should never be pressing down, her d-smash isn't that bad for him and a turnip spamming peach < a defensive Ness but an offensive peach is just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than any Ness.... If peach plays the offensive it's an insta-win. Rating for Ness 1. If he knows the matchup enough he can get over it though...

Vs. Shiek:
Ness has to sh over Needles, is cg to 30 %, is comboed easily, gets edgeguarded easily... There's nothing he can do... He's faster than her, but she is the hardest character for him ti combo. He just has d-throw to nair or fair chains, and stuff involving his running attack. That's it... Needles eat thunder. Considering most other characters he does pretty good, but it's still terrible. He can easily edgeguard her, but that should never ever happen since the shiek will have to take enough damage... Rating: 1 or 2 at best.

Vs. Marth:
Ness can combo Marth too, but Marth combos much better. I, personally have a hard time edgeguarding him, but I heard from other Ness players it's not supposed to be hard. Ness combos with dthrow, fair (which comes faster than Marths fair but has less range...) Really this is ****. The only good thing going for Ness is that he has his running attack (which leads to a grab) a situational use of pk fire (which prevents grounded approaches) and the occasional fair (which isn't that useful in this matchup). Ness cannot do anything about a Marth that approaches in the air (unless he's good at aiming pk fire... not possible...) Rating: It's fine as a three.

Vs. Fox:
Fox is easier than Marth, Sheik, and Peach only because he doesn't punish Ness' weaknesses as much as the others. Fair prevents aerial approach from Fox (most of the time), and if a Fox is ever grabbed by Ness = dead Fox. Unfortunately Fox is near impossible to grab. Fox also has uthrow to uair and usmash against Ness. Ness has no approach in this situation and is destroyed by an offensive Fox (if ever does get Fox on the defensive then he does win). The reason many Ness players think Ness and Fox is even is because there are situations where Fox gets ***** by Ness. Those situations, however, are almost never encountered by a Fox. They both **** each other's recoveries btw (Fox with shinespiking, Ness with F-smash preventing sweetspots). Rating: 3.

Vs. Falco:
Falco is like Fox except he has a harder time killing Ness (no usmash killing), Ness combos him better and easier, an even worse recovery than Fox, doesn't have shinespike, and combos Ness better. Ness has a harder time preventing Falco's aerial approach. Falco can laser Ness for edgegaurd, but against good Nesses it really isn't helpful, and dair... Really out of all his high tier matches this is the closest to being even. At best a 6, at worst a 7. I don't understand why. Again Ness has situations where he ***** Falco, but those are rare yet again... Rating 3 or 4, someone explain to me why it's a one... The reason that this is a one right now is probably because:

Noob Ness = Noob Falco
Good Falco >>>> Good Ness
Excellent Falco > Excellent Ness

This is due to Ness' weird learning curve. When you start to get technical he actually gets much worse (compared to other characters), but with more experience becomes deadly.

Vs. Game and Watch: Really it all boils down to the fact that he CG Ness with his dthrow and his fair > Ness' fair. They both edgegaurd each other pretty well. It's definetely not as hard as the top tiers so 4.

Other Matchups I disagree with but will explain more later:

Ness vs. Jigglypuff: It's not as bad as people make it out to be. 3 or 4 for Ness.
Ness vs. Luigi: They both **** each other. Even.
Ness vs. Pichu: Pichu is harder for Ness than Mewtwo vs. Ness but isn't as hard as a 6. I'd put him at a seven or eight for Ness...

Ness doesn't have a problem with Link, or Y. Link except for projectile spamming. They're to easily combo'ed or outranged respectively.

Ness has **** combo's against Roy. I'm not sure what Roy can do against Ness, but it definetely is an easy matchup for Ness.

Look at my last post for more info.

Ignore everything I said about matchups in the Ness super guide. I'm changing that very soon.

Mood4Food: Please try to put more thought about your Ness related posts (as well as all or your matchup posts). You hardly explain anything at all... You really don't seem well versed at all...

Phanna: Ignore the Ness board, hardly anybody there is intelligent....

To people who doubt Ness' matchups in lower tiers, surprsingly enough, the lower tiers aren't good at punishing Ness' faults. The only low tiers that give him lots of trouble are G&W, Young Link, Luigi, and Link. Ness is like Shiek in low tier tournaments.

 

[Banks]

guys this is all opinion and skill level, if youj take fox he can get ***** by DK if DK is good right, i mean conjecture conjecture smell my sweatshirt

thanks for explaining the ness matchups ive always wanted to know that. .

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

harsh sage^_^ i dont think i agree with everything u said there, but thats not important

i'll just help straiten the facts out:

Marth's fair is faster than Ness' and has equal range, but should they meet in the air Marth will take 1-3 dmg and Ness will take 13 or 14ish dmg.

Overall on the matchups I think there are things for Ness you left out.

Oh...did u not want me to bring that up? Were you gonna let those matchup descriptions sit here then go to tournaments and use special Ness moves to suprise-own ppl?^_^ I know I would^_^

 

[Banks]

so the moral of the story is, don't play ness.

 

[forward]

This is both the best and worst chart I have ever seen

 

[L5LM_Gtlink]

guys this is all opinion and skill level, if youj take fox he can get ***** by DK if DK is good right, i mean conjecture conjecture smell my sweatshirt

thanks for explaining the ness matchups ive always wanted to know that. .

there you go.

 

[thesage]

As simna said, they're not the best descriptions, but they're pretty close to being. This is the impression I've gotten from going to tournaments and talking with UmbreonMow. I'm still not experienced enough but I do know a few things.

1. For an extremely high level Ness fighting the people of the same level the matchups DO change.

Peach, Marth, Fox, and Falco become easier.
Shiek stays the same.
G&W becomes harder.
I'm not sure about Jigglypuff though.

Ness' matchups are not solid due to his wierd learning curve, they're extremely fluid. They also depend heavily on the Ness' style (as for every other character). The reason Ness is so low in tiers is because his worst matchups are with the most important people. If he did better against Fox-Peach, then he would definetely be upper tier. But he doesn't, and thus he's bottom tier. I think they should make a list for low tier tournaments as many characters positions would drastically change (Ness would be close to the top of low tier).

 

[TJK1997]

I am not an expert at this and this might sound noob but shouldnt Doc be even with Falco?Doc can match Lasers with pill camping and he can cape Falcos recovery.Fox has shine so...I think Doc should be 5-5 with Falco.Once again this may sound noob but I am just asking.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

This is both the best and worst chart I have ever seen

Agreed 100%.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

ic >>>>> puff ... trail is living proof. puff = too light to trade hits with the lil men.

 

[Banks]

if they made a live action movie I would like to meet the ******* who play the ice climbers.

on topic - I think people should stop arguing about matchups, just learn two characters then switch if you get *****. lulz.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

if they made a live action movie I would like to meet the ******* who play the ice climbers.

on topic - I think people should stop arguing about matchups, just learn two characters then switch if you get *****. lulz.

Or better yet, have someone good that plays more than 2 characters make the chart. That way, less mistakes.

 

[Banks]

good call, only a well known pro's advice is taken seriously anymore. I should give advice.

lolololololololololol

 

[TJK1997]

I will repeat my question.I am not an expert at this and this might sound noob but shouldnt Doc be even with Falco?Doc can match Lasers with pill camping and he can cape Falcos recovery.Fox has shine so...I think Doc should be 5-5 with Falco.Once again this may sound noob but I am just asking

 

[Zankoku]

I think Falco's lasers beat out Doc's pills in sheer projectile speed. It takes time for Doc to throw a pill, more time than Falco takes to fire a laser.

 

[Mogwai]

This is both the best and worst chart I have ever seen

Well then, help make it just the best chart you've ever seen. Input of pros like yourself is definately the best way to improve the chart.

Or better yet, have someone good that plays more than 2 characters make the chart. That way, less mistakes.

The current chart is the product of much much more than just Phanna's orrigional attempt. As you can see from the over 1000 replies, the current chart is the product of the input of everyone who's taken the time to help make it more accurate.

Perhaps too many cooks are spoiling the broth here, but unless someone can pick out the top couple players for each character and stick them in a forum for however long it takes to get some sort of agreeable chart, we'll have to be ok with this.

I will repeat my question.I am not an expert at this and this might sound noob but shouldnt Doc be even with Falco?Doc can match Lasers with pill camping and he can cape Falcos recovery.Fox has shine so...I think Doc should be 5-5 with Falco.Once again this may sound noob but I am just asking

A Falco off the stage is as good as a dead Falco, the cape is barely relevant. What is relevant, is that Falco easily fights through pill camping with SHL (they have better RoF and range), and can combo doc fairly well. As I've said before, Falco matchups boil down to how easily the other character can create oppurtunities to control the match, and in doc's case, this isn't terribly often, he just takes good advantage of them.

 

[TJK1997]

What about the cape to kill Falcos recovery?

 

[Pat/Pro]

a 6-4 is still a pretty close matchup, i mean after all its the same as fox's with falco. Its definitely not a 5-5 just because of the cape, i mean docs recovery against anyone is pretty crappy.

 

[TJK1997]

I see now.Thanks

 

[pockyD]

bair edgeguarding is more reliable anyway; cape is best when they are up-bing from under the stage, at which point every character has multiple moves that would kill a falco

 

[Cyphus]

good list overall...

i'll just try to explain some minor disagreements i have.

i feel mario has just an eqaul chance as doc vs. fox and falco, if not slightly better. Mario's better uptilt and upair are much more exaggerated in this fight than credit given. That one extra hit he might get more than doc means alot. pills aren't really that affective against the spacies, while at least mario's fireballs are superior edgeguard tools in spotting out illusions, while his cape is also a better tool in edgeguarding than docs (for this specific situation) in that its more horizontal hitbox is more valuable in trying to time against their recoveries(since they won't be trying to recover from underneath( in which case, mario and doc have it practically guaranteed), although fox/falco should be smart enough to recover from above-where mario has the advantage over doc.

from chainthrow, mario's f.smash is very easy to link into, and alot more devastating than doc's. One thing, i believe doc has o ver mario is the upthrow to f.air KO at 110+%. But Mario can sex kick and pretty much have a guaranteed edgehog from that point in most cases anyway.
Cuz of their fallspeed, mario's Jab-to-grab mindgame is more realistic as well, since doc's seems to be a tad to slow and more likely to be escaped from. Mario's quicker recovery from shuffles allows him to escape shield grab more likely, and well...against spacies your shuffles is pretty much all you can throw against them.
imo: Mario to fox/falco = 4/6, doc to fox/falco = 3/6 or 4/6..its pretty borderline, imo.

on the list it has mario an even fight vs. capt, while doc is weak against capt...i agree w/ that, since i've always felt mario does better against fast fallers, while doc does better against most everyone else.

------------
another questionable thing i must ask, granted i'm not an expert on this...
why is samus a stronger oponent for fox than sheik?
i understand the whole not-being-comboed thing...but fox is just too **** fast for samus, can laser spam, while sheik has all kinds of nasty tricks on fox, especially in the edgeguarding dept and reach (the same goes w/ falco)

fox vs. samus = 6/4 imo
fox(and falco) vs. sheik = 5/5


i think the top tiers are being underestimated in their matchup list...cuz assuming both playesr are top-notch players, i dont' see how a fox/falco should ever lose to a samus or doc or mario, simply because spacies are significantly better characters that hold a statistical advantage no matter what level u take them too because they control the pace.
maybe its my interpretation of what a 4 to 6 really means...but that seems like "its pretty **** close" in my opinion..and i think 3 to 7 says "they have a significant advantage" is more correct for those matchups.

 

[TGM]

harsh sage^_^ i dont think i agree with everything u said there, but thats not important

i'll just help straiten the facts out:

Marth's fair is faster than Ness' and has equal range, but should they meet in the air Marth will take 1-3 dmg and Ness will take 13 or 14ish dmg.

Overall on the matchups I think there are things for Ness you left out.

Oh...did u not want me to bring that up? Were you gonna let those matchup descriptions sit here then go to tournaments and use special Ness moves to suprise-own ppl?^_^ I know I would^_^

ness cant hold its own on marth, ever.

 

[Metal_man69]

Can someone explain to me how Samus has an advantage against Peach? The way I figure it she gets rid of Samus' crouch cancel game, her air moves have more priority than Samus' , and her back air gets rid of the missle threat.

 

[pdk]

so all this based on people opinions is it......
urgh

educated opinions are the best you can get and they're better than nothing, right pal?

 

[captainlukey]

educated opinions are the best you can get and they're better than nothing, right pal?

no pdk they are not...
its a waste of time reading this crap... who cares about the opinion of every person who reads this thing... sure as hell not me...
put phanna back on... he knew what he was doin...
dam pdk...
urgh
and wesley.... let phanna do it....
thats all i can say to some pigheaded dopey guy...

 

[Mogwai]

no pdk they are not...
its a waste of time reading this crap... who cares about the opinion of every person who reads this thing... sure as hell not me...
put phanna back on... he knew what he was doin...
dam pdk...
urgh
and wesley.... let phanna do it....
thats all i can say to some pigheaded dopey guy...

Look who's talking? Have you even read Phanna's posts on this thread. He wants input, we give it. You're being so ignorant to the purpose of this thread that the fact that you still post on it is downright offensive to me. Who the hell are you to judge the input of others in this thread? In fact, why did I even both acknowledging your post. . .

Well, since I'm already wasting time I should be spending studying, what precisely would you like me to "let Phanna do", as you said? Are you refering to me posting about what I think about Falco matchups? If so, then that's just stupid, because Phanna has asked for input because he knows full well that he can't be the ultimate judge on specific matchups, especially those which he doesn't play regularly. I play Falco and Jiggs, so I feel obligated to point out the mistakes that I see in the chart on their matchups, and why I feel they should be different, that's how this thread works. If you can't figure that much out, I'm surprised you can rub enough brain cells together to make your fingers type your ignorant posts at all...

 

[TemplarPsi]

good chart i like it a lot.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

So all this based on people opinions is it...
urgh

This is both the best and worst chart I have ever seen.

 

[choknater]

So all this based on people opinions is it...
urgh

This is both the best and worst chart I have ever seen.

well there's really no other way to do it, is there?

IMO phanna's judgment is very, very good, save maybe 15 or so of those matchups. out of the 600+, of course.

 

[REDRAGON]

Hmmmmm i just watched a match where Ken was the commmentary guy and he said that Captian Falcon is a 60-40 agaist Marth.

I think the best in the world would know so better change it now................

 

[phanna]

Hmmmmm i just watched a match where Ken was the commmentary guy and he said that Captian Falcon is a 60-40 agaist Marth.

I think the best in the world would know so better change it now................

Everyone has their biases, especially the best. Go back a bunch of posts to when Mew2King was posting - he made some excellent points, but he also had some really biased ones as well. I could prove this to you if Ken actually said that, because that match-up is decidedly in Marth's favor, and I say this without the bias of either character being my main, only what I've seen and heard from everyone, both in tournaments, and here on the boards. Could you link this video though, I'd like to hear that commentary.

 

[REDRAGON]

Everyone has their biases, especially the best. Go back a bunch of posts to when Mew2King was posting - he made some excellent points, but he also had some really biased ones as well. I could prove this to you if Ken actually said that, because that match-up is decidedly in Marth's favor, and I say this without the bias of either character being my main, only what I've seen and heard from everyone, both in tournaments, and here on the boards. Could you link this video though, I'd like to hear that commentary.

Sure thing, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VLjNuvze0c&mode=related&search=

He says it at like 38 sec i think...

I am not 100% sure about Cap. being 60-40 over Marth, but it makes sense seeing as Marth really only has edgegaurding on Cap. Ken says that also in the match.

Could you tell me which page Mew2King said that stuff???