All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[Samochan]

How the **** is Y.link that bad of a match-up for Peach?

I mean, c'mon, it's Peach we're talking about. There's just no friggin way.

It's even, or peach has a slight advantage (or should be, but the chart seems to be wrong). Projectiles can mess up peach pretty badly if you do it right, and dairs and uairs can kill peach, but other than that, peach has advantage. Turnips can be spammed as much as y.links projectiles can and they also fly further, bomerang can be blocked (bombs can't, they explode), dsmash eats shields and turnips eat his recovery and other than dair and uair, with good DI peach does not die till 200% while y.link dies much much easier.

 

[Razgriz]

It just happens to be so that this is not a tier list and nevel will be. Even if X character would be kicking Y characters *** in tournaments, that is not valid point when making this list because when the X character is countered by Y character and X characters keep winning more matches, it does not make the actual matchup any easier to character X. Do peaches always lose to marths, sheiks and animals cause they have advantage over her and they're higher on tier list? No, they don't. Whether you lose or not is determied by your skill, not tiers. The fact that sheik ***** Links doesn't have anything to do with the fact that sheik is one of the best characters and link is low tier, because for example, Link goes pretty even with peach that is only 2 spots lower on the tier list than sheik. >_> Sheik ***** links because sheik is what sheik is like and ***** stuff a lot, but it's especially bad for link because of the chaingrabbing, speed, faster projectiles, edgeguarding ect. and it so happens that Link is on the slower side, needles trajectory ***** his recovery, sheik can counter projectiles ect. which have everything to do with matchup but not tiers. Matchup charts are just matchup charts, not tier lists. >_>

Yes... everything you just said is very true. Are you trying to disagree with me? I was merely stating that the tier list and the chart are of similar nature because both have been determined as a result of recorded tournament matches. that's all. They are certainly different. Power to ya for recognizing this Sherlock.

 

[1048576]

I think this chart is more based on theory than tourney results. The tier list is based solely on tournament results.

 

[tarheeljks]

The chart is based on theory, but I think it takes actual gameplay into account. By that I mean to say that phanna did his homework to make sure that theoretical advantages can be exploited in real matches.

The matchup chart has been changed before, and may be changed again, but I believe that the perfect matchup chart would yield the correct tier list.

@Samochan: I can't really tell what the overall point of your last post was, but I'm responding to a few things you said. Whether or not you lose is obviously determined by your skill, but you must also account for the nature of the matchup-- if a Sheik loses to the IC's, that doesn't mean that the Sheik is unskilled. Also, I take issue with your example of character X and Y: If character X is beating character Y all of the time (or even half of the time) how can you call character Y a counter for character X? If you claim that Y counters X in theory, but X beats Y whenever they play, then it is obvious that Y does not counter X.

Also, The tier list doesn't reflect transitivity in matchups, but higher tier characters have more good matchups.

 

[DoH]

Ah, but you forget about the Suki-jump (aka turnip jump)

It does need to be flipped though. The match up is close to even but has a small advantage to Peach, not the other way around.

That's why you aim for her bombs and not herself so she can't catch the turnip until she's dropped some height...and how many samus players actually use that technique?

 

[Razgriz]

Oh... this chart is based on Phanna's theory? I thought it was as objective as the tier list.

 

[tarheeljks]

I didn't mean to suggest that phanna just arbitrarily graded the matchups based on how he evalutated each character's strengths/weaknesses (relative to other characters of course) . It's based on theory in the sense that you would say "it's easier to combo fastfallers" and then you would go into the game to test it. Well as opposed to playing w/every character I think phanna consulted various people from the character specific boards in order to determine the nature of each matchup. So the chart is theoretical, but it's not just phanna's theory. I think the chart is more or less accurate, especially amongst the upper tier characters. However there will always be dissention because people who aren't as good as they think will claim that character X counters their main b/c they always lose to them. And then there is the issue of fanboys.

 

[skrach8]

Nice tarheeljks. So when was the last time list was updated.

 

[ChozenOne]

If you get knocked out by a Sheik it's because you're too narrow in your selection of characters and need to broaden your choices. If you get knocked out by a Falco you need to at least appreciate the effort he has to put in to moving around like that, and you can escape his combos with proper DI. I just get pissed-off losing to some ******* who may (ChuDat) or may not have skill and watching him sit there pressing A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, and there's nothing I can do about it. Wobbling takes about 20 minutes of practice, and no skill. It's gay.

I think we all can agree that ChuDat is a ****a$$ <(^_^)b

 

[tarheeljks]

@skrach8: I think it was towards the end of last year, sometime in December.

edit: 12/15/2006

 

[ChozenOne]

Yeah.. but that was totally Phanna's perspective...

 

[tarheeljks]

was it though? obviously he made the chart, but i was under the impression that he got most of his info from the character specific boards.

 

[phanna]

The only character that really had my own personal opinions as a major drive was Samus, specifically the problems I was having with Ganon at the time, but people called me out on that and it's since been fixed. There are some tweaks to make, like make peach-samus even and not in Samus' favor, and to increase the difficulty of Sheik to the same as that of Captain Falcon. Stuff like that, but anyways, the rest of the chart, since the 1st update, is entirely based off of the opinions of others, both from each characters' specific forum, and the opinions of everyone who has posted in the thread. It's a semantic list, created by arbitrating the reasonable opinions of people who post here and elsewhere. It's therefore always going to be jaded, I don't think there's a way to numerically capture this data, and if you tried it that way, you'd only be expressing the latest trends in tournaments, and things like the potential of ice climbers before they were explored wouldn't be expressed. And as my spring break winds down, I'm becoming less and less sure I'll be able to update this, but if anyone wants to recap the changes to a specific row or column they feel are justified by the posts made since the last update (Jan 2007), please do so.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

phanna, i think the one thing peach players have been saying is that yl isnt that bad.

 

[Me14k]

Marth should be a 7 against peach, Marth is a peach counter, that is final.

 

[ChozenOne]

Phanna is a beast. <(^_^)b

 

[JBM falcon08]

Why is marth 5-4 with fox but not 5-4 with falco? i guess thats just my opinion, fox is a much harder match for me i guess than falco.

 

[Superstar]

I'm sorry if this has already been posted, but I assume not, as it has not been updated in the chart [or you stopped updated in a while]. On the chart, it says that Mario has a slight advantage against Luigi, when in reality is the other way around. Luigi has better range than Mario, strong KO moves, is hard to combo, and an awesome wavedash. I am not an expert on the matchup, so look at this thread.

Mario vs. Luigi
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72941&highlight=Mario+Luigi

 

[Johnknight1]

I say that SSBB needs a much better balance. Now that they are aware of SSBM's success! It so cheap fighting as Link against Fox and Falco, and getting owned when I know I could own them as basically any other character. Tourneys only really use a few characters, and I say basically all of them should be as equal in matchups as possible. Sure, it depends on style of play some of the time, but overall the matchups are often predetermined!

This is especially sad me vs Pichu (I don't know how it my weakness, but it is!). Luckily, my Peach skill owns Fox and Falco, especially against opponents I know I'm twice as good as. The mechanics need to be totally redone, from scratch which is what is being done! Hopefully the controlled (probably slower) speed will change this even more! He-he, maybe I'll finally be able to own as Link against Fox and Falco users a lot easier, and Pichu even.

This weakness stuff is so pathetically true! what is this element vs element? Sadly, it almost is exactly like this! Sometimes this really upsets me when this effects my play/which character I use, and if it is minimalized, if not totally destroyed, SSBB will be a lot better! C'mon how cheap is it when your best character has a 1 to 5 shot against someone elses best character, when you know your better! The battle can never be quite as fun as if it were truely equal!

LOL, I barely beat my friend when he was Ganondorf, I was Link! The odds favor him, and that makes me feel better about winning! Plus Ganondorf is who I train off to eliminate minimal weaknessess! I guess that helps a lot, too! But still...Pichu! Pichu!?

 

[ESAM]

Fox vs Ice climbers is even???? Samus vs Fox is even?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I seriously don't agree with those.
Fox shines ice climbers and they are separated and nana is dead since they slide very far.
I'd say samus vs fox is 6 in fox's favor because although samus has edgeguarding and comboing, fox on low ceiling levels shine to upsmash samus or just waveshining samus ownage.

 

[Juce]

Samus shouldn't be able to get waveshined if the Samus is good, so those things aren't too much of a problem. Fox being able to use platforms much better and his bair having ridiculous priority are his main strengths on Samus because he can chain those into usmash or uair.

 

[NJzFinest]

Samus is good at punishing Fox with annoying moves such as Spin Attacking right out her sheild and crouch canceling to downsmash. Since Fox needs to get in close inorder to combo, fighting Samus aggressive is extremely troublesome if the Samus is playing correctly (Ex. back in the time period right after OC2, I remember M2K telling me HugS's Samus gave him alot of trouble and he had to resort to spamming in order to win).
Ack, back when I was an active member of this forum, I knew much more about Samus VS Fox. Sorry for the lack of detail guys, but I do remember CunningKistune goes over the matchup quite well in his updated guide.

Defensive Samus>>an aggressive Fox. An aggressive Fox> an aggressive Samus. A spammy/passive Fox>>>Samus (in general)
If Fox runs away and shoots lasers all day, then Samus is pretty much done.

 

[tarheeljks]

JohnKnight, peach only has the advantage over falco, not fox. also, this chart assumes that both characters are being played by two characters using the advanced techs in the game. even though it says two players of equal skill, this statement implies a baseline skill level.

for instance, a low level sheik will beat a low level falco, whereas the chart says falco> sheik.

 

[cemo]

Fox vs Ice climbers is even???? Samus vs Fox is even?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I seriously don't agree with those.
Fox shines ice climbers and they are separated and nana is dead since they slide very far.
I'd say samus vs fox is 6 in fox's favor because although samus has edgeguarding and comboing, fox on low ceiling levels shine to upsmash samus or just waveshining samus ownage.

I'd say Fox vs ICs is even. The gayness can go either way.

 

[ESAM]

Fox can gay way easier. I mean, to gay someone with IC (besides the Wobbles infinite) It takes way more timing than, shine wavedash run towards nana shine.

 

[cemo]

Fox can gay way easier. I mean, to gay someone with IC (besides the Wobbles infinite) It takes way more timing than, shine wavedash run towards nana shine.

Shine doesn't always seperate, you have to be between the two. A good IC player would (attempt to) save Nana, anyways.

 

[Johnknight1]

Strategy, Style, and Skill Can Change Some of the Chart

JohnKnight, peach only has the advantage over falco, not fox. also, this chart assumes that both characters are being played by two characters using the advanced techs in the game. even though it says two players of equal skill, this statement implies a baseline skill level.

for instance, a low level sheik will beat a low level falco, whereas the chart says falco> sheik.

Again it can be changed with styles. I'm not talkingh about AI fights, but rather 1 on 1's, and what how I fight is added in. The chart can't exactly predict everything, but some fights, such as Kirby vs. Marth, are predetermined that Marth (or another character) has a major advantage.

I personally try to craft my moves and strategies with a certain uniqueness that is exactly how I enjoy and want it. I try to get the best moves, strategies, and combos out of every character I use, and use that, along with almost unheard of moves and combos to create a strategy that suites me.

Then again, nothing beat sheer dominance, other than the character weakness chart saying one character has at least probably a 1 to 7 chance of winning. Still 90-95% of the time the best fighter wins, or best at that time at least! The rest of the time, well is unfortunate, lol!

 

[tarheeljks]

you are overlooking the fact that your opponent can make his own adjustments in resposne to yours. changing your style may certainly be beneficial, but you are overemphasizing its potential effects (again this is assuming you and your opponent are of comparable skill). obviously if your opponent is playing like the cpu you will exploit this, but there will rarely be a scenario where adjusting your style will automatically produce a victory (even in close matchups).

the point of my post was just to indicate that peach does not have an advantage against fox. you can change your style however much you want, but it won't negate the advantages fox has over peach. all you can do is hope to minimize them.

 

[Johnknight1]

you are overlooking the fact that your opponent can make his own adjustments in resposne to yours. changing your style may certainly be beneficial, but you are overemphasizing its potential effects (again this is assuming you and your opponent are of comparable skill). obviously if your opponent is playing like the cpu you will exploit this, but there will rarely be a scenario where adjusting your style will automatically produce a victory (even in close matchups).

the point of my post was just to indicate that peach does not have an advantage against fox. you can change your style however much you want, but it won't negate the advantages fox has over peach. all you can do is hope to minimize them.

I have fixed my chances against Fox and Falco as Link (maybe reducing 1/2 the advantage), but I still take a beating from them. I heavily adjust my play, and play out of the ordinary naturally. Maybe because I'm left handed, myabe because I like and naturally use the out of the box style.

Results vary obviously, as we can see from past page arguements. Plus considering I only know two or three people at or near my skill level, and I beat them most often even when I'm at a disadvantage.

The thing with disavantages is you can fix them, sometimes only a little, sometimes a lot. Again results can vary, but it just takes practice. For example, I memorize my opponents strategy, moves, attacks, etc. and when they use them real fast, and I adapt to it. Most of the time I can counter it easily, other times it can be hard to adapt.

Adjusting your style doesn't produce a victory/survival, adapting to survive does. A lot of the times it can't be done, but with time, patience, training, skill, and focus, you can counter these.

Plus considering I've bypassed basically everyone I knows skill after quitting SSBM for a while, I picked up new moves, and change my style. The thing I do to change results a lot other than pure skill and memorizing opponent patterns is using a characters weaknessess, and making that one of my strong points.

That really throws people off, and totally can change the chart. Raise the weak parts of your strategy to your strong parts=less weakness, and makes you a all around better player. This method made me gain several victories I otherwise would not have had. That is basically how I got all the last few trophies I didn't have, lol!

 

[Problem2]

Ganon has a 6/10 chance of beating Link? What are you smoking?

 

[tarheeljks]

you should be using a char's weakness against them, relative strengths and weaknesses dictate the difficulty of a matchup. this is not news, it is the basis of the chart. it seems like you believe you've figured out how to "beat the system." if you are "reducing half the advantage" it sounds like you need some better competition.

edit: i'm also a southpaw, but i don't see how that is relevant

 

[phanna]

Ganon has a 6/10 chance of beating Link? What are you smoking?

Thanks for an incorrect statement and a useless catch phrase. Next time, try to sprinkle your thoughts with some intellegence and an actual opinion (such as: Ganon should do better / worse in the match-up) for me to work with. Some reasons why you feel that way would also be nice. Instead you have not given me anything that I could actually attempt to improve the chart with, and have only revealed your own ignorance.

The chart does not indicate a 6/10 chance of Ganon beating Link. Instead, that match-up bears a 6 for Ganon, which looking at the legend indicates that against an equally skilled Link in a tournament setting, we could expect Ganon to go 5-4 in a set of best of 11, barely beating out link. So if you want to change to % chances, it would be a 55.6% chance of Ganon beating Link, roughly.

So you have neither correctly interpreted this chart, nor provided any useful feedback on it.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

^^ Owned.

Thanks for the chart Phanna, I never mentioned it in this thread before but it has been quite useful for me and my smash buddies ^_^

If these guys are getting on your case you should just break their shields then superwavedash combo them

peace

 

[pockyD]

we could expect Ganon to go 5-4 in a set of best of 11

*best of 9

and of course 5-5 is impossible, but even must exist -_-

 

[skrach8]

phanna is the man. I wish i was ask sick as you. so is sheik a hard counter for marth or a soft one.

 

[tarheeljks]

@phanna: i've been meaning to ask you this for a while: i thought ganon v. falcon was slightly in falcon's advantage, but when i said this in the c. falcon forum they laughed me out of the thread. the chart has it as even, can you expound?

 

[phanna]

*best of 9

and of course 5-5 is impossible, but even must exist -_-

Yes, 9 my bad - I confused the "best of 9" with the 11 colors I used to show how the set could end.

phanna is the man. I wish i was ask sick as you. so is sheik a hard counter for marth or a soft one.

A soft counter, but at the same time, is also Marth's hardest match-up overall.

@phanna: i've been meaning to ask you this for a while: i thought ganon v. falcon was slightly in falcon's advantage, but when i said this in the c. falcon forum they laughed me out of the thread. the chart has it as even, can you expound?

When I first made this chart I had it in Falcon's advantage because intuitively I figured speed would make the difference in a clone war, but since then I've been corrected by many skilled Captain and Ganondorf players that it's pretty much a dead even fight. I trust their wisdom on the issue.

 

[Kalmetam]

Well the chart says Shiek should be top tier.... I main Falco and Sheik is my second but.... I think in my own said Shiek should be so thats good.

 

[tarheeljks]

ok, just wasn't sure b/c i got a lot of resistance when i said this in the falcon forums.

 

[Johnknight1]

you should be using a char's weakness against them, relative strengths and weaknesses dictate the difficulty of a matchup. this is not news, it is the basis of the chart. it seems like you believe you've figured out how to "beat the system." if you are "reducing half the advantage" it sounds like you need some better competition.

edit: i'm also a southpaw, but i don't see how that is relevant

Ya I know it's basics, and I do need better competition. I recently played my friend who is probably my best competition, and biggest rivalry, and we were neck and neck. He used Fox, I used Link, and somehow I won. Intresting enough, he used Link, I used Link and I lost. Considering he can't deciede if Fox or Link are his best, I find that odd.

Also after that I play Fox, he played Link, and I won, and then it was Fox vs. Fox and he won. Simply put, it was a very odd situation since I had this chart in my mind. I don't think the chart was wrong in that instance, it is just we use the out of the box styles were so similar, our styles are almost the exact same.

It's sorta wierd how in I beat him when we were diffrent characters, and he beat me when we were the same characters. I found that to be very intresting and really unusual. It is even wierder considering we both fight almost exactly the same, move for move, though our errors are usually a little diffrent. He's the only person I know who fights anywhere near the same way I do.

Side note: being left handed means you generally use a diffrent side of your brain, which means lefties think diffrently. Not saying one is better than the other, it usually means you just do things diffrently sometimes.