Alabama Thread! (10/26/2016 update)

[munkus beaver]

My original response to the quote is all I wanted to say in response to it. Whether or not MK is too good is not relevant to the ASL issue because they didn't ban him because he's too good.

My statement about the cast being unviable and you guys being so weirdly surprised by people wanting to ban MK is my own digression

One of the quotes provided was, literally,

He's just too good

 

[Seagull Joe]

unviable is a vast exageration.
seriously? two characters? im guessing youre refering to his close to even matchups. if bad MU's mean that your character is unviable theeennn... wario makes every character unviable except for like 4 or something.

im asking you how you would feel if you got your character banned and you respond "lol mk is broken though so thered be no reason to have my character banned"
munkus is telling you he read things about how the ban was biased and you are like "lol he is lieing he mad bc mk is broken"
but then you say things like "we arent banning him bc he is broken or anything lol, its for attendance"
youre just avoiding arguing or even making logical points about the subject.

im just trying to communicate here but we cant even talk about mk without trololol over here going "lol it doesnt matter he is SOOOO BROKEN" it gets old.

thats one good thing about the ban is that i wont have to hear "lol tornado so broken" "lol that is ridiculous mk is sooo ridiculous" behind every one of my matches now and i wont have to stop and laugh at how dumb mk is every time i get a shuttle loop off or something. so stupid. at least itll get everyone to shut the **** up and stop complaining irrrl.

seagull lets play wifi soon though!!!!

I don't like to Wi-Fi lol.

what is semi-scarring, seagull?
and my bad. i just am use to dealing with a certain kind of people on AiB you know.

It's when you scar through the stage by holding down. Certain angles permit automatic side b's to go through the stage. On BF, just drop and side b and you'll go through. Hold down if you want to make sure you do, but you don't have to.

AiB is meh. I go there for the blogs.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

i had to stop reading buuut...

you have a choice of about 5, maybe 10 characters that are viable out of 25 in melee.
you have a choice of 1 character that is viable out of nearly 40 characters in brawl.

see the difference

 

[DRN]

i had to stop reading buuut...

you have a choice of about 5, maybe 10 characters that are viable out of 25 in melee.
you have a choice of 1 character that is viable out of nearly 40 characters in brawl.

see the difference

Thats a pretty big exaggeration >.>

 

[theONEjanitor]

not really. you're literally not playing to your fullest potential in brawl if you're not playing metaknight. he wrecks every match up in the game on every stage. ultimately he's the only viable character.
at mid level play it doesn't matter because we all suck, so reflex can wreck us all with PT
but ultimately, MK is the only viable character because he can't be countered
a couple years ago, diddy was considered an even matchup, and before that people thought snake was a decent matchup. but at this point MK has no counters or even matchups, or even close to even matchups apparently.

 

[DRN]

Thats incorrect :/. Potential of a player doesnt always transfer over to potential of a character. Not every stage against every character is in metaknights favor. Also MK isnt broken at all. The only reason his ban is up for debate is because of what he does to the community not because hes the best. At the moment Pikachu vs MK is considered even. Esam still stands by this and i'm preeeeetty sure he knows the match up better then any of us. This case is also different from when diddy was considered even. MK players thought he was even and not diddy players.

I still believe there are about 4-6 characters that are viable.

I'm lazy to post everything sooo heres 2 short posts where we talked about mk in the NC thread.

@_@ you have several things wrong with your statement. He has 3 even MUs, or at least 1 even MU (Pika) and 2 almost even MUs (Diddy/Falco). Every counterpick is NOT in his favor, are you ****ting me? I would LOVE if MKs took my ICs to FD, or my Pika to PS1. They are CLEARLY not in his advantage, so saying anything else is just you not being able to get yourself to the level that you can beat MKs (Which happens to all of us, I'm not ****-talking you for it).

He does NOT outprioritize everything. Transcendent hitboxes cannot be stopped, BUT THEY CANNOT STOP ANYTHING! It's kind of a trade, and it does NOT give him ultimate priority. Hell, Tornado doesn't have ultimate priority, it is just a disjointed hitbox on the bottom and sides, with a HUGE opening at the top.

Please research a little before you make vast claims that simply aren't true.


For the record, I'm pro-ban.

Mk isnt going to banned because of how good he is. He is far from broken and is completely beatable. He is obviously the best character though. The reason he'll get banned if he does is because of what he does to our community. The influx of metaknights over the years has grown to a stupid number which is why he is making so much money. I'm sure he is also the number one used character overall which isnt surprising.

MK hasnt been completely bad for our community though. He has pushed characters to their limits to overcome him and i'm sure advanced some characters faster then they would have if he had been banned early on. Characters are still developing as well.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I think brawl itself is broken and brawl's community is scrubby and MK has to be banned for this weird set up to thrive, i don't think there's a such thing as being "too overpowered" unless you literally have mechanics that the game wasn't designed to deal with (i.e akuma in super turbo), but
I agree that Metaknight is probably bad for the community, and even if we don't know that we should test it to find out if he is.

Last I heard (which was like a year and half ago), ESAM has stated that MK has no bad or even matchups, including Pikachu, but he may have changed his view. even if this is the case. okay you have a character that has one even match up. that hardly makes it any better lol

I dont see how Falco is a "close to even match up", but i dont know what top falcos think, I do know that adhd and gnes thoroughly disagree with diddy being even or even close to even. also i originally mained diddy and the diddy boards did at one point believe that diddy was even, or even a counter to metaknight on some stages

saying that mk has "3 even matchups" is just plain silly. He has 1 at most, assuming ESAM is right, and all the others aren't even close.

but as we're saying, it kind of doesn't matter whether or not he's "too good" because that's not the issue at hand. it is still kind of really dumb though and worth mentioning

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I dont see how Falco is a "close to even match up", but i dont know what top falcos think,

They laugh at people calling it 50-50.

 

[theONEjanitor]

basically, and this is my opinion, I think we're just trying to salvage a broken game lol.
in Marvel 2 theres like 56 characters and only about 6 of them are playable, and 3 or so of them were legit MANDATORY. the most unbalanced game of all time (that people actually play) the difference is, they were okay with that, because they're a mature competitive community. (in terms of competition, not necessarily in terms of personality lol). I mean, it's dumb as hell. but whatever, that's just how it turned out. live with it, or play a different game.
If MK stays legal, what's gonna happen is he's going to get better and better because other characters metagame stall as they continue to deal with an ever more powerful MK, and the finals of every major with be MK vs MK, and there's nothing wrong with that in principle. That's just what happens, some characters are better than others, if you want to win, pick the best character. Our community is not satisfied with that for whatever reason though, and in order for this **** to not implode upon itself we probably should ban this character.

 

[DRN]

TBH i dont even know why this convo and convos like it are still going on. The BBR-RC poll is an indication that hes most likely gonna get banned in the near future. I'm going to guess it'll start after Apex since Apex isnt going by Unity Ruleset and i'm sure they want people to be prepared for MK still.


Time to practice my

 

[munkus beaver]

not really. you're literally not playing to your fullest potential in brawl if you're not playing metaknight. he wrecks every match up in the game on every stage. ultimately he's the only viable character.
at mid level play it doesn't matter because we all suck, so reflex can wreck us all with PT
but ultimately, MK is the only viable character because he can't be countered
a couple years ago, diddy was considered an even matchup, and before that people thought snake was a decent matchup. but at this point MK has no counters or even matchups, or even close to even matchups apparently.

This is such a blantatly wrong statement.

 

[_Keno_]

Thats incorrect :/. Potential of a player doesnt always transfer over to potential of a character. Not every stage against every character is in metaknights favor.

Yeah, a few characters have an alright stage against MK. Too bad MK gets a stage ban.

Also MK isnt broken at all. The only reason his ban is up for debate is because of what he does to the community not because hes the best.

Not because he's the best? That has nothing to do with it? Maybe it's because he is SO the best that he actually affects the community negatively.

At the moment Pikachu vs MK is considered even. Esam still stands by this and i'm preeeeetty sure he knows the match up better then any of us.

LOL! Its not considered even by anyone but him. I dont know if you noticed, but ESAM has been saying this for a while (its not a recent thing).

This case is also different from when diddy was considered even. MK players thought he was even and not diddy players.

That's because diddy players played with MKs that knew that match-up (because they played each other...) while the groaning and moaning of most MKs (including some upper level MKs) had little to no experience with Diddy or his banannas at that time. Now its quite clear that Diddy is not even with MK.

I still believe there are about 4-6 characters that are viable.

I supposed you are entitled to your opinions. I wont argue that.

This is such a blantatly wrong statement.

I agree, playing MK will not necessarily allow someone to reach their personal peak. I know characters like falco and snake simply do not mesh with my particular style of play, and if they were the best characters, I could not reach my full potential with them.

 

[DRN]

Yeah, a few characters have an alright stage against MK. Too bad MK gets a stage ban.

My point was that not all stages are in his advantage vs all characters.

Or maybe it's because he is SO the best that he actually affects the community negatively.

Or maybe its because there are just so many metaknights that there is no reason for him NOT to be doing so well. I'm not arguing hes the best but i dont believe he is an immeasurable force that will win no matter who or where he plays.

LOL! Its not considered even by anyone but him. I dont know if you noticed, but ESAM has been saying this for a while (its not a recent thing).

Yea like i said before he still stands by this which means exactly what u said. Hes been saying it for a while and its not like hes just been saying it without any info. He is the only one saying it because hes the only pikachu at national level atm so obviously hes going to be alone when it comes to top MK vs Top Pika info.

That's because diddy players played with MKs that knew that match-up (because they played each other...) while the groaning and moaning of most MKs (including some upper level MKs) had little to no experience with Diddy or his banannas at that time. Now its quite clear that Diddy is not even with MK.

Well i agree'd diddy wasnt even and diddy players dont think so either soooo


Thank you for not arguing with my opinion though. Some people assume when people state something then that person automatically is saying its fact :/

 

[*Cam*]

Last I heard, ESAM called it 55:45 in Metaknight's favor. That was late last year. He may have changed his mind since then. It's not bad for Pikachu, but I would be lying if I called it even. He outranges Pika, and tornado shuts Pikachu down pretty hard because of his small shield and short range.

 

[DRN]

The quote I posted is from this week.

I cant go into Pikachu specifics because I only know the basics from when i picked him up and I'd rather not spout false info.

I do believe that vs / is 55:45 though(MK's favor). I'm not looking at this from Metaknights perspective.

 

[*Cam*]

In that case, I do not agree with ESAM's assessment. I do not think it is even.

 

[_Keno_]

My point was that not all stages are in his advantage vs all characters.

I know, I was just saying that because the stage ban rule exists, they might as well be. A select few characters have a single good stage against MK, but sadly it doesn't matter.

Or maybe its because there are just so many metaknights that there is no reason for him NOT to be doing so well. I'm not arguing hes the best but i dont believe he is an immeasurable force that will win no matter who or where he plays.

Hehe, you have a reverse of causation. He has been dominating since the (almost very) beginning, it isn't a recent thing caused by a swell in his numbers. The rise in MKs DOES amplify his success and draw it away from other characters though, you are right about that. This is why some people believe it "harms" the community though. Lack of variety due to a single dominating force.

Yea like i said before he still stands by this which means exactly what u said. Hes been saying it for a while and its not like hes just been saying it without any info. He is the only one saying it because hes the only pikachu at national level atm so obviously hes going to be alone when it comes to top MK vs Top Pika info.

I would say any top MK's he plays against would have the same info.
And about him "standing by his 50:50 ruling." That's more to do with his stubbornness than his knowledge.

Thank you for not arguing with my opinion though. Some people assume when people state something then that person automatically is saying its fact :/

Actual discussions require people to be civil. And its not necessarily about winning with your argument as it is about coming to the right conclusion. I will personally allow all people to play MK against me in the ASL tournaments.

 

[munkus beaver]

Actual discussions require people to be civil. And its not necessarily about winning with your argument as it is about coming to the right conclusion. I will personally allow all people to play MK against me in the ASL tournaments.

It is always a good policy to start out polite. You can't go from being a jerk to being polite and expect results.

 

[_Keno_]

Heh, yeah. Lots of people (including myself) can jerk it up.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It is always a good policy to start out polite. You can't go from being a jerk to being polite and expect results.

Completely depends on the results you're looking for.

 

[Mahgnittoc]

Heh, yeah. Lots of people (including myself) can jerk it up.

I lol'd.

10lols

 

[theONEjanitor]

a "personal style" is changeable, especially in a game like brawl where skill transfers from character to character easily. if you don't change your personal style to fit metaknight's playstyle, technically you're not playing this game optimally

 

[shaSLAM]

personal style does not flow from one character to the next very optimally in brawl imho.
i cant airdodge through everything and it be a good idea with mk OR wolf.

i think each character has to be played different and according to the character's playstyle for you to reach their full potential... not just mk >_> thats just ridiculous to state that.

oh and the post above me is a good example of your troll god tier posting, kevin.

 

[shaSLAM]

not really. you're literally not playing to your fullest potential in brawl if you're not playing metaknight. he wrecks every match up in the game on every stage. ultimately he's the only viable character.
at mid level play it doesn't matter because we all suck, so reflex can wreck us all with PT
but ultimately, MK is the only viable character because he can't be countered
a couple years ago, diddy was considered an even matchup, and before that people thought snake was a decent matchup. but at this point MK has no counters or even matchups, or even close to even matchups apparently.

also this is just a flat out ridiculous post.

HE HAS A LOT OF CLOSE TO EVEN MATCHUPS EVERYONE
ok so..

olimar, pikachu, diddy, mk , wario, marth, idk theres more. basically all the top tiers.
which is probably why they are top tiers. he doesnt flat out destroy everyone unless you guys are sayng that 60:40 is an unwinnable matchup.

 

[I SEE YOU]

Is Birmingham coming to Auburn tomorrow for the smashfest?

 

[Aloha]

ryker what other fighters are you gonna get? bruh check out that persona 4 and i know u excited bout blazblue extend, skull girls, kof13, street fighter x tekken ,umvc3, third strike **** is srk on fye?

 

[shaSLAM]

i dont know if i can come or not ill have to see.

 

[Saki-]

Is Birmingham coming to Auburn tomorrow for the smashfest?

I want to go. o:

 

[theONEjanitor]

also this is just a flat out ridiculous post.

HE HAS A LOT OF CLOSE TO EVEN MATCHUPS EVERYONE
ok so..

olimar, pikachu, diddy, mk , wario, marth, idk theres more. basically all the top tiers.
which is probably why they are top tiers. he doesnt flat out destroy everyone unless you guys are sayng that 60:40 is an unwinnable matchup.

60/40 is not "close to even" lmfao 60/40 = your character is getting bodied

in high level play that is unwinnable unless one of the players is much better than the other, or one of the players is ****ing up.

i disagree about skill transferring from character to character. smash has particular trends across characters with only few exceptions. for example, almost every characters nair and d-smash hits both front and back. you pick up characters knowing these trends and you adjust your gameplay based on the characters unique traits. that's why its so easy to pick up characters in this game.

 

[munkus beaver]

You realize what "unwinnable" and "60-40" mean, right?

 

[munkus beaver]

Janitor, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?

 

[DMG]

also this is just a flat out ridiculous post.

HE HAS A LOT OF CLOSE TO EVEN MATCHUPS EVERYONE
ok so..

olimar, pikachu, diddy, mk , wario, marth, idk theres more. basically all the top tiers.
which is probably why they are top tiers. he doesnt flat out destroy everyone unless you guys are sayng that 60:40 is an unwinnable matchup.

Take wario off that list

Please

 

[munkus beaver]

I just talked to the guy who made the post I was referring to. The things he put in quotation marks were not meant to be literal statements that people had made, but rather the sentiments that he felt from specific people during the discussion. Since he voted for the ban, I am still inclined to believe his assessment, but I felt I should fix the fact that they were not actual quotes.

 

[shaSLAM]

Take wario off that list

Please

no its not bad and you know it.

janitor literally everything that comes out of your mouth is garbage straight garbage when it comes to smash, you realize this right? i feel like you have mimimum gameplay, game knowledge, and community based knowledge (how the metagame has advanced, who is beating who and how, etc. etc.) , but still make the most radical statements about brawl than anyone on here.

i have community based knowledge and gameplay experiance i know that for a fact. how much gameplay have you even put into brawl outside of tournaments?

 

[shaSLAM]

oh i just looked up munkus' effect thingy

"in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions"

yeah basically what i just said. i feel like it describes janitor to a tee.

and i feel liek the only time that you were really serious about brawl, kevin, was in 08 and that's honestly what most of your ideas on the game remind me of lol i find that entertaining too that you literally havent gained any knowledge since then, or any real knowledge. youre just way out of the loop sort of speak honest to god.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Janitor, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?

Yes, and it's completely irrelevant to what we're talking about. The Dunning-Kruger effect is the phenomenon where skilled people underestimate their skill and where unskilled people overestimate their skill. No one has made any mention about their own skill or the skill of any particular person.

we use terms like 60-40 to symbolically define a matchup such that a player would win that matchup 60% percent of the time because when that player ****s up the opponent has sufficient options to punish them.

in an 80-20 matchup, for example, if the player ****s up, the opponent has very few options to take advantage of that. It would take a significantly better player to overcome that disadvantage.

in a 50-50 matchup, even if the player plays perfectly, the matchup is such that the opponent still has the opportunity to win (if he also plays perfectly. which in this game would leave luck the decider)

in a 60-40 matchup if both players play perfectly the better character will win. and the only way the better character doesn't win is if the player ****s up.

the chance that players might **** up is not a legitimate argument against a character being overpowered.

MK-Snake is about 60-40.
If you are MK and you lose to Snake, either you are fighting Ally or UR DOING IT RONG

 

[theONEjanitor]

oh i just looked up munkus' effect thingy

"in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions"

yeah basically what i just said. i feel like it describes janitor to a tee.

and i feel liek the only time that you were really serious about brawl, kevin, was in 08 and that's honestly what most of your ideas on the game remind me of lol i find that entertaining too that you literally havent gained any knowledge since then, or any real knowledge. youre just way out of the loop sort of speak honest to god.

says the guy who is claiming to know matchups better than a wario player ten times better than him

 

[shaSLAM]

what does that have to do with being out of the loop?
im saying he is exagerrating because it is mk and ppl love to exagerate mk.
im not saying i know it better.

 

[theONEjanitor]

It is common among top warios that wario gets bodied by MK. It has been for a while. You're under-representing MK just because you play him.

 

[*Cam*]

There's always the anon-salt effect.

Whenever people get behind a keyboard and monitor, their normal malice is increased by a factor of 10.