Alabama Thread! (10/26/2016 update)

[theONEjanitor]

I just want to play smash lol
lighten up guys

 

[shaSLAM]

Same to you.

lol so i was right about some of it then? i knew that at least some of that reasoning existed.

yeah im on your side munkus. if i didnt feel like going to tournaments then i wouldnt support it either.

and janjan, thats easier for you to say being that you arent a MK main. if people took your snake and pit away for their selfish reasons then im sure youd have a problem with it and be at least a little upset. "i dont like pits arrows and snake has good tilts and i only wanna play the game using b buttons"


its upsetting at least you have to admit that.

 

[shaSLAM]

but ive been working my *** off with wolf.
that ***** sucks.
hell, captain falcon is a good "fighter" but thats not what makes a character good lol

anyways idc. ive never been a mid tier main before so thats kinda cool i guess.

 

[munkus beaver]

I didn't mean to imply that cam was one of those people, just that I hope his group changes their minds about not compromising.

 

[GeorgeTHPS]

Well, looks like I've missed quite a bit of action. See you in October.

 

[theONEjanitor]

if my character got banned I would be like ?
but i certainly would not refuse to support what is obviously an amazing idea in the ASL out of some ridiculous high and mighty principle that I've set for a broken game and gaming community that isn't respected by the fighting game scene or supported by the developers of the game itself. Actually, that's selfish. By definition. if you think ASL is NOT a good thing for Alabama's smash scene, you're just plainly wrong. Refusing to support it because they did something you disagree with is laughably nonsensical. And selfish.

I strongly dislike counter pick stages, for example. i think its stupid that they're legal. But i'm not going to refuse to support the community or not attend tournaments because they choose to make them legal. That's nonsense. and unlike with MK, I think cp stages are on, simply because of personal preference and how people want to play the game rather than any objective competitive reasons.

and i don't believe MK was banned for "selfish" reasons. Metaknight was banned for one and only one reason. He wasn't even banned because he's broken. He was banned because the ASL believes it will cause more people to come to tournaments. That is not a selfish reason. You guys are just whining and making up ****.

Munkus is on some other **** right now and it's amusing to me that he's being taken seriously.

 

[theONEjanitor]

nah meh nevermind this post.
ima start playing online again. i have yet another FC lol

 

[shaSLAM]

disregarding facts that someone said because youre saying "he is on some other ****" is amusing to me.
i mean, munkus is saying that he read it, hes not just spewing random stuff... idk. how is that "making up ****?" also i dont feel like i made anything up...
and im pretty sure counterpicks are on because of the counterpick system which is part of competitve brawl and not just a prefrance.
its not a high and mighty principle, its just a principle. unfortunately princeples are considered as high and mighty. munkus is a lawyer, he is all about justice lol. anyways, i knew you were gonna bring up the "lol mk is broken anyways" thing janjan.

also, yeah i asked a while ago but no one ever answered. so if we dont get increased tournament attendance then the ban will be removed?

i mean im pretty much over it but i thought it was interesting what munkus posted.

also i was pointing that more at ASL and not cam specifically, as i thought you were, when i qouted that, munkus.

 

[theONEjanitor]

there's no way that munkus read "a post" from someone and then had enough information to conclude that the majority of the ASL and people involved in the ban vote are pro ban for "selfish" reasons. That's ridiculous. It's sort of insulting to the people involved to assert that they are so petty and stupid that they are unable to make a reasonable vote on whether or not an MK ban is good for the community without being selfish.

when you refuse to support something that is obviously more good than bad because it did one little thing you disagree with, that is "high and mighty" and unreasonable

 

[I SEE YOU]

Slam~
Janitor~
you guys planning on going to Cam's smashfest? I'm going to try and go, but I have a CPR certification class i have to take on saturday. Hopefully it doesn't last too long.

 

[munkus beaver]

there's no way that munkus read "a post" from someone and then had enough information to conclude that the majority of the ASL and people involved in the ban vote are pro ban for "selfish" reasons. That's ridiculous. It's sort of insulting to the people involved to assert that they are so petty and stupid that they are unable to make a reasonable vote on whether or not an MK ban is good for the community without being selfish.

when you refuse to support something that is obviously more good than bad because it did one little thing you disagree with, that is "high and mighty" and unreasonable

It's hilarious, because I did. I'm not quoting it directly or pointing you to it because I don't want to set a lynch mob out on this person. It's note my goal to ostracize or alienate them, if they want to speak up that's fine. But I'm not gonna make that choice for 'em.

EDIT: And I'm not supporting it because it sets a bad precedent for future decisions to be made with the same bias/justifications. Just a for instance, if the group voted to have 3 tourneys in Auburn, 1 in North Alabama, and none in South Alabama or West Alabama, it could be because person A made a decision based on the location of the Alabama smash community, the draw to out of state players, and the potential to get new blood. But person B, C, and D could support the decision because it's most convenient to them and use person A's argument to rationalize it for themselves.

Frankly, I was willing to compromise and was trying to find a compromise. But if this is how things are going to be decided going forward, I'd rather use the only real influence I have as a customer and try to instigate a change.

 

[Ingulit]

Overall MUs:
I'm curious: barring MK/the MK match-up, which character has the best overall MU spread? Marth? Snake? Diddy doesn't have many HORRIBLE match-ups, but most of them are even at best, so I can't see him being the right answer. Falco doesn't seem right either thanks to Pikachu.


Wolf:
I love Wolf. He was my first main :3 I remember seeing those videos of the guy who previewed every character's movesets, and Wolf seemed so BA. His recovery did it for me, though :/

I know the MU is HORRIBLE, but does Wolf fair any better against Pikachu than Fox? And why is Wolf's D3 MU so bad; does D3 have a small-step CG or something? Does Wolf REALLY beat Olimar?


Recovery:
Someone said to me that Zelda's recovery is worse than Link's... Is that right? O.o


Magic the Gathering:
Anyone else play it besides Pops?

 

[*Cam*]

I don't think it's fair to say most people who voted on this ban did so for selfish reasons, especially when you don't know who all voted on it. There were 12 people in the vote. About 5 of us have been outspoken about it on Smashboards. I'm not going to tell you which way each person voted, but here's the deciding body as it is now:

Ingulit
Cam
Reflex
CIN
Elev8
Ragnarok
Ryker
m3t
PoPe
Alias
Pops
Cheap

I think when you talk to these people one-on-one, you would be hard-pressed to say they based their votes on selfish reasons. They wouldn't be in this group if they didn't want what is best for the community.

That being said, ASL members do have a chance to elect a new ASL council to make these decisions. The vote wasn't supposed to be until May, but I don't see why we couldn't make it sooner since Spring is so far away.

EDIT: Ingulit, I think Marth. However, Falco is pretty safe since there won't be many (or any) Pikachus this season.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Overall MUs:
I'm curious: barring MK/the MK match-up, which character has the best overall MU spread? Marth? Snake? Diddy doesn't have many HORRIBLE match-ups, but most of them are even at best, so I can't see him being the right answer. Falco doesn't seem right either thanks to Pikachu.


Wolf:
I love Wolf. He was my first main :3 I remember seeing those videos of the guy who previewed every character's movesets, and Wolf seemed so BA. His recovery did it for me, though :/

I know the MU is HORRIBLE, but does Wolf fair any better against Pikachu than Fox? And why is Wolf's D3 MU so bad; does D3 have a small-step CG or something? Does Wolf REALLY beat Olimar?


Recovery:
Someone said to me that Zelda's recovery is worse than Link's... Is that right? O.o

Probably Marth, because he has almost no bad matchups and does rather well against a majority of characters (and still wrecks the low tiers, like Dedede). Lucario is a close second, if only because he doesn't have many bad matchups either, and his fundamentals allow him to succeed against a variety of characters, regardless.

If we're talking about matchups spread against high tiers, it's still probably Marth for the same reasons. The rest of them have mostly good matchups and a couple troublesome ones, like Wario and Falco.

Wolf is so simple, but you're allowed to switch from aggressive combo fiend to campy time-out mode on a dime, and all of his tools have great built-in mix-ups. Outside of a safe B-Air, the shield mechanics do a number on him, but his great juggle game, invincibility via Down-B, useful projectile, and ways to land a grab allow him to get around it. The thing about his projectile is that you have to learn the perfect distances to use Forward-B and Up-B. People get on the ledge early to edgehog your Forward-B, but in anticipating that, you can just wait and go straight up with your Up-B after half a second, and that works against everyone but people with Z-Airs, pretty much. Also, canceling Forward-B gives massive distance and allows platform camping like nobody's business.

Wolf does much, MUCH better against Pikachu than Fox. Wolf has an excellent ground game, which does a lot more to prevent the chaingrab than Fox's entire moveset. The same could be said about his horizontal aerial mobility. Great range, safer KO moves, easier juggling opportunities...I would argue that the matchup would be close to even, honestly.

I think Wolf does well against Olimar for many of the reasons that Falco does well against Olimar. Neutral-B beats any Pikmin on you, the bayonet stuffs Smashes and the like, and the shot has to be avoided in a neutral situation (shielded, most likely, but if you get grabbed, that releases you). Olimar hates having to jump, and Wolf forces him to. Down-B invincibility destroys Olimar's aerial game and doesn't last as long as the Whistle, allowing you to hit him afterward. Wolf definitely wins that matchup, for sure.

Link's recovery is actually rather good as long as you have a habit of DI'ing upward. His fastfall allows him to live vertically like King Dedede. Aided by a jump after the knockback wears off, you can get to the stage easily and fastfall airdodge like Dedede to get back on stage, too. If you're getting edgeguarded, you can stick out a N-Air or fastfall airdodge through their attempt and Z-Air as you get near the ledge, allowing you to get on rather safely. Since you're recovering from high, it gives you plenty of time to pull bombs or your boomerang in order to have a very versatile means of dealing with edgeguarding. It's better than most characters, I would say, especially when you factor in how much damage you have to deal to KO him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Double-post in a social thread for importance:

Check this out--

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310386

 

[shaSLAM]

People get on the ledge early to edgehog your Forward-B, but in anticipating that, you can just wait and go straight up with your Up-B after half a second, and that works against everyone but people with Z-Airs, pretty much. Also, canceling Forward-B gives massive distance and allows platform camping like nobody's business.

.

pretty sure ive gotten edguarded alot trying to mix up the side b up b thing. people just anticipate the mix up as well more often than not.
its not as simple as you make it sound lol. idk maybe it is to you lol.
wolf just has two really really unsafe recovery options the way i see it.

 

[shaSLAM]

well if they vote to get him banned and actually ban him then ill be really happy actually. i really hope the nation bans him if we are so ill have a point in being a ****ing wolf main.
also
" to ease into any possible transition that may happen "

you guys need to do that next time. or at least provide for us that it is on your agenda to ban him when you advertise your agenda for ASL. it was literally totally out of the blue and changed in one day with no warning at all.
all i got was a facebook chat that said do you think mk should be banned to which i responded no and that was it. come on here next day. hes banned.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

pretty sure ive gotten edguarded alot trying to mix up the side b up b thing. people just anticipate the mix up as well more often than not.
its not as simple as you make it sound lol. idk maybe it is to you lol.
wolf just has two really really unsafe recovery options the way i see it.

Attempting to mix it up and doing it right are two very different things. It took me a while to get competent with it. It's really not simple, but once you "get" it, his recovery isn't nearly as much of an issue. Watch Seagull Man or Kain play; they probably understand.

 

[_Keno_]

Apparently Colorado is about to start a MK-banned tournament series too.

 

[theONEjanitor]

wolf's recovery seems really bad, but in practice its harder to edgeguard that it seems
i dont think anyone in this game has a "bad recovery", this game has way too many defensive and recovery options you just gotta learn how to play.

unless we're saying MK has a good recovery, and everyone else has a bad one

 

[JKHDaBomb]

**** Yeah Reach! We should play sometime!

My gamertag is Ingulit

EDIT: That's not Reach 3:

**** Yeah Reach! We should play sometime!

My gamertag is DaBombSMASH

 

[shaSLAM]

colorado sounds like a legit smash state.... not...

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Been there, they're far from bad. I got WRECKED by a ROB who won it all.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bees is a good player, yeah. That's the ROB you're talking about. I played friendlies with him for a few hours while I was visiting a few weeks before that tournaments. Those matches are up on YouTube.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Yeah, they said that was the first tournament he won when I was there. He and Steam were the ones that helped me get to the venue and figure out what was where. They were also the two who took me out of the tournament.

In an unrelated note, I was surfing videos and found those matches and it took me awhile to puzzle out the why you two ever played each other. Then I remembered you went to CO about a week before me.

 

[Keys1281]

For anyone who's curious, I will not be attending the smashfest that is occurring this weekend due to life again and misinterpretation. I swear I thought it was supposed to be NEXT weekend (the 16/17/18). But nope. My life is currently so stressful that I just don't know what to do.

 

[shaSLAM]

i have pills 4 u spade iff u want life stress go away.

i forgot what i was originally gonna post about.

 

[Bees!]

colorado sounds like a legit smash state.... not...

That's right people. I name search colorado. Took me a while to get here because people use that word a lot.

 

[munkus beaver]

I don't think it's fair to say most people who voted on this ban did so for selfish reasons, especially when you don't know who all voted on it. There were 12 people in the vote. About 5 of us have been outspoken about it on Smashboards. I'm not going to tell you which way each person voted, but here's the deciding body as it is now:

Ingulit
Cam
Reflex
CIN
Elev8
Ragnarok
Ryker
m3t
PoPe
Alias
Pops
Cheap

I think when you talk to these people one-on-one, you would be hard-pressed to say they based their votes on selfish reasons. They wouldn't be in this group if they didn't want what is best for the community.

That being said, ASL members do have a chance to elect a new ASL council to make these decisions. The vote wasn't supposed to be until May, but I don't see why we couldn't make it sooner since Spring is so far away.

EDIT: Ingulit, I think Marth. However, Falco is pretty safe since there won't be many (or any) Pikachus this season.

There is a difference between thinking "This is good for ME and THAT'S why I'm doing this" and being subconsciously influenced. I've seen some of the arguments put forth which indicate that their decision was based on their personal preference, or some other agenda than "the good of the Alabama smash community."

 

[theONEjanitor]

he's reading your minds guyz

 

[Seagull Joe]

pretty sure ive gotten edguarded alot trying to mix up the side b up b thing. people just anticipate the mix up as well more often than not.
its not as simple as you make it sound lol. idk maybe it is to you lol.
wolf just has two really really unsafe recovery options the way i see it.

Being able to go through the stage by just holding down (Semi-scarring) is another added option. Both his recovery options are pretty safe. No one out right gimps .

What Reflex said is pretty much true.

Slammy wrote at 5:47 AM on Sep 08, 2011:
you didnt have to be an assshole just because i asked. i thought you werent suppose to be an asss like the rest of these wifi losers. guess i was told wrong and now ive kinda lost respect for you.

Gee thanks. I fall asleep and you get mad.

 

[munkus beaver]

he's reading your minds guyz

I consider

he keeps sever of the weaker characters from being viable because they have a very bad matchup against him, and he is very popularly played so those characters have to face him every tournament

to be an argument based on personal preferences, not the interests of the Alabama community.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I don't know the context of that statement exactly, I don't know how much you've omitted, BUT making most of the cast of the game unviable is something that would presumably keep people from wanting to attend tournaments. Which, from what we've been told, was the the entire point of raising this issue. If that was, indeed, the entire point of raising the issue of the ban, then I would be forced to assume that every argument made in this discussion was made in that context. Which would make that an argument about the interest of the Alabama community. You're trying to read this person's mind, as I said. You're assuming these statements are made in a different context than the one on the table. They could be, but you don't have any conclusive reason to assume so.

Also, making most (technically all, but maybe one or two) of the characters in the game unviable is a serious issue, and I still don't understand how someone could be legit, unshakingly mad at wanting to ban a character that like that?

 

[munkus beaver]

Are you familiar with melee? Top tier makes the mid and bottom tier unviable. If you were going to ban a character for invalidating half the cast, sheik would have been banned ages ago. It's also a slippery slope. How many of the ****ty characters do you have to make unviable before it warrants a ban?

 

[shaSLAM]

what is semi-scarring, seagull?
and my bad. i just am use to dealing with a certain kind of people on AiB you know.

 

[shaSLAM]

Also, making most (technically all, but maybe one or two) of the characters in the game unviable is a serious issue, and I still don't understand how someone could be legit, unshakingly mad at wanting to ban a character that like that?

unviable is a vast exageration.
seriously? two characters? im guessing youre refering to his close to even matchups. if bad MU's mean that your character is unviable theeennn... wario makes every character unviable except for like 4 or something.

im asking you how you would feel if you got your character banned and you respond "lol mk is broken though so thered be no reason to have my character banned"
munkus is telling you he read things about how the ban was biased and you are like "lol he is lieing he mad bc mk is broken"
but then you say things like "we arent banning him bc he is broken or anything lol, its for attendance"
youre just avoiding arguing or even making logical points about the subject.

im just trying to communicate here but we cant even talk about mk without trololol over here going "lol it doesnt matter he is SOOOO BROKEN" it gets old.

thats one good thing about the ban is that i wont have to hear "lol tornado so broken" "lol that is ridiculous mk is sooo ridiculous" behind every one of my matches now and i wont have to stop and laugh at how dumb mk is every time i get a shuttle loop off or something. so stupid. at least itll get everyone to shut the **** up and stop complaining irrrl.

seagull lets play wifi soon though!!!!

 

[theONEjanitor]

Are you familiar with melee? Top tier makes the mid and bottom tier unviable. If you were going to ban a character for invalidating half the cast, sheik would have been banned ages ago. It's also a slippery slope. How many of the ****ty characters do you have to make unviable before it warrants a ban?

To be clear, I don't think being overpowered is a worthy cause for banning, as I've mentioned. I'm only saying I don't see why people are acting surprised and militant about it. He's clearly broken. It's not nearly as bad in melee, but if the community decided to ban sheik I would still say, okay well I see where you're coming from.

How many of the ****ty characters do you have to make unviable before it warrants a ban?

I dunno, all of them? Making bad characters unviable is entirely different than making all characters good and bad unviable. The only characters that come anywhere close to beating mk are MAYBE diddy (which the top diddys are denying) and MAYBE wario (which the top warios are denying), When you are literally playing sub optimally because you're not using metaknight, that's worth note. depending on who you asked, (melee people correct me if i'm wrong) fox, falco, and ice climbers all have sliightly favorable matchups with sheik. and this doesn't take into account stages, as you could severely limit sheiks effectiveness with good cp stages. I think the jiggs matchups has gotten better as well. it was never sheik or die, because there were options. Brawl is basically metaknight or die at this point. Our community has decided that that's a problem. and I understand why.
And again, THIS IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION FOR THE ASL BAN BECAUSE THE ASL BAN WAS NOT MADE DIRECTLY BECAUSE THEY THINK MK BREAKS THE GAME. This is sort of a digression honestly, its just me wondering why you all seem to be so surprised that such an overpowered character actually got banned. MK kind of has no precedent in other games. There's never been a regular, non boss/special character that has been THAT much better than all the other characters. I guess thats why this debate is so hard to settle.

unviable is a vast exageration.
seriously? two characters? im guessing youre refering to his close to even matchups. if bad MU's mean that your character is unviable theeennn... wario makes every character unviable except for like 4 or something.

im asking you how you would feel if you got your character banned and you respond "lol mk is broken though so thered be no reason to have my character banned"
munkus is telling you he read things about how the ban was biased and you are like "lol he is lieing he mad bc mk is broken"
but then you say things like "we arent banning him bc he is broken or anything lol, its for attendance"
youre just avoiding arguing or even making logical points about the subject.

im just trying to communicate here but we cant even talk about mk without trololol over here going "lol it doesnt matter he is SOOOO BROKEN" it gets old.

thats one good thing about the ban is that i wont have to hear "lol tornado so broken" "lol that is ridiculous mk is sooo ridiculous" behind every one of my matches now and i wont have to stop and laugh at how dumb mk is every time i get a shuttle loop off or something. so stupid. at least itll get everyone to shut the **** up about him for a second irl not on here loooollll

wario has several even and close match ups. MK has POSSIBLY two that are anywhere near close, that he still wins anyway.

i dont think ive said any of the things you claim i've said in this post.
I've responded to all of those things.

if my character got banned I would be like ?
but i certainly would not refuse to support what is obviously an amazing idea in the ASL out of some ridiculous high and mighty principle that I've set for a broken game and gaming community that isn't respected by the fighting game scene or supported by the developers of the game itself. Actually, that's selfish. By definition. if you think ASL is NOT a good thing for Alabama's smash scene, you're just plainly wrong. Refusing to support it because they did something you disagree with is laughably nonsensical. And selfish.

there's no way that munkus read "a post" from someone and then had enough information to conclude that the majority of the ASL and people involved in the ban vote are pro ban for "selfish" reasons. That's ridiculous. It's sort of insulting to the people involved to assert that they are so petty and stupid that they are unable to make a reasonable vote on whether or not an MK ban is good for the community without being selfish.

I don't know the context of that statement exactly, I don't know how much you've omitted, BUT making most of the cast of the game unviable is something that would presumably keep people from wanting to attend tournaments. Which, from what we've been told, was the the entire point of raising this issue. If that was, indeed, the entire point of raising the issue of the ban, then I would be forced to assume that every argument made in this discussion was made in that context. Which would make that an argument about the interest of the Alabama community. You're trying to read this person's mind, as I said. You're assuming these statements are made in a different context than the one on the table. They could be, but you don't have any conclusive reason to assume so.

i dunno where you're getting the trollollol mk is broken stuff from.

 

[munkus beaver]

That quote is clearly not addressing the majority of the cast like your sweeping statements are.

 

[theONEjanitor]

My original response to the quote is all I wanted to say in response to it. Whether or not MK is too good is not relevant to the ASL issue because they didn't ban him because he's too good.

My statement about the cast being unviable and you guys being so weirdly surprised by people wanting to ban MK is my own digression

 

[Saki-]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274662

Now with no door fee. :x