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Aerial Edgeguarding

Ochobobo

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I'm sure all of us realize how many potent aerial attacks Zelda has. Combined with her long-distance Farore's Wind recovery, they can change into gimping tools of destruction in the right hands (or feet). I'm curious, out of the many options, which aerial attack do you prefer the most when preventing a recovery?

Fair/Bair - The Lightning Kick is already an attack to be feared onstage, and offstage it's just adding insult to injury. You're so close to the walls it is basically a guaranteed KO. The only catch is the opponent has to be right in front of you for it to sweetspot, or behind you if you're doing a bair, which is usually done by grabbing hold of the edge and letting go so you're facing backwards. You could even sourspot this which could easily lead into another attack. It would just push them away until you're comfortable with their position.

Dair - The sweetspotted dair spike is probably the most obvious choice for this kind of tactic. It is almost always an absolute certainty of death whenever it connects. You just need to make sure the opponent is definitely directly below you for it to work. You may just do it automatically though, even if the opponent is nowhere below you and is actually right next to you or even above you, in which case a Lightning Kick or Uair would be more appropriate.

Uair - This is one of Zelda's most powerful killing moves, and there's no sweetspot needed. Strangely, when you're edgeguarding offstage, it isn't too uncommon for the enemy to somehow be above you when recovering. Here, a Uair would obviously be the best choice.

I realize the previous three methods rely heavily on where your opponent is. Which is why there are also two more methods that can be used from almost any position...

Nair
or Nayru's Love - Both of these attacks will end up accomplishing basically the same thing: sucking up the enemy and spitting them out in some direction that they won't particularly enjoy. Whether it sends them farther away from the stage, or even towards the stage for a possible stage spike. You could likely even follow it up with an extra aerial attack if you think it didn't get the job done by itself. In order make it so Nayru's Love sends an opponent towards the stage for a stage spike, you would need to do a Reverse Nayru's, or just jump off the stage backwards lol.

So again, I ask which of these attacks do you prefer to use the most, or which do you feel is the most viable? Maybe you just always use a dair even if it only sourspots. Perhaps that's just what works for you. I have not seen any videos of matches where someone uses a Nayru's Love offstage, and only read about it in SinkingHigher's guide, so I guess it's not too popular, or perhaps just not an obvious choice.

I usually do a dair or fair, but I am trying to work on all the others to mix things up, lol.
 

SinkingHigher

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None of the above.

I use sourspot bair or f-airs and chain them together. Chances are it will end with a sourspot which im fine with, but its not the intention. Zelda can do up to 5 b-airs total before returning to the ground.

Well, actually...

If they're above me I use uair and below i use b-air. Just makes sense. Zelda is very good at predicting recoveries.

N-air is only useful for approach and spacing, both are done on stage.

NL? For edgeguarding?

I use NL to throw people off the stage and then edgeguard. Sometimes they KO themselves, sometimes I spike at 0%, both are fun.
 

Ochobobo

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NL? For edgeguarding?
lolol

I only put that in for completion's sake and because I was curious if anyone here actually uses it often.

Gliding Nayru's is in your guide, that's the method I meant. Though that would only be useful when the opponent is very close to the edge.

Also the only time I've seen Nair used effectively offstage was in that one NinjaLink/Rykoshet match, so I put that in to see how many other people try it.

Sourspot bairs, interesting...
 

SinkingHigher

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You can plausably connect 3 b-airs off stage unless your opponent is a sandbag that's magnetically attracted to you. (Assuming it's a metal sandbag.)

I think they're a bit scarier and safer than n-airs. I don't recall seeing that video before. I'll watch it now.

Just as a note, Din could be a conceivable edgeguarder... I've Din Glide from off stage after being attacks and stage spiked someone hanging around waiting for an edgeguard. Well, I doubt any self-respecting Zelda would do this on purpose so maybe not.

P.s. Wanna brawl ocho? I just did a system update. I think it was my fault.
 

Ochobobo

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Yeah I guess Din's could be used like that, lolol I might as well include it if I'm going for completion's sake!

Sure I'll brawl lol, I'll talk to you on the Zelda chat
 

gm jack

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A NL glide could be very effective against people who primarily rely on their jumps to recover. If you catch a Yoshi coming up in a NL glide and throw them away from the stage, it could get a very easy kill. I think the potentially biggest application could actually be against MK. If you get the glide so that you just drop a fair bit and don't move forwards, if the MK doesn't have any jumps left, that could gimp them horribly. Provided they are just taken out of range of a side-B recovery, the shuttle loop won't give enough height.

It may not work if it is horribly out prioritized, but NL does have a few invincibility frames. If you could time it nicely, it could be a nice way to get a KO a little before you normally could, or to punish them letting you recover if they chase you offstage, and don't reach you before you teleport back to the stage.

Anyone fancy crushing the idea?
 

MRTW113

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Usually use LK sours or Uair. Sweetspots are added bonus to me. Nair is usually only if they're getting away and I cant do anything else except suck em in with nair and toss them back over the ledge. Dair I usee mostly for gimp setups, actually, usually sourspot->footstool then edgehog. Oddly, I never consider NL for edgeguarding. Something about that lag...but it sometimes helps against recovering Lucs or Samuses
 

Half-Split Soul

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I only put that in for completion's sake and because I was curious if anyone here actually uses it often.
I use NL for edgeguarding. Well, maybe not often, but every now and then. It´s really good against some characters and can (maybe) lead into Lightning kicks.

Otherwise I usually prefer Fair or Dair.
 

Ochobobo

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Usually use LK sours or Uair. Sweetspots are added bonus to me. Nair is usually only if they're getting away and I cant do anything else except suck em in with nair and toss them back over the ledge. Dair I usee mostly for gimp setups, actually, usually sourspot->footstool then edgehog. Oddly, I never consider NL for edgeguarding. Something about that lag...but it sometimes helps against recovering Lucs or Samuses
Why is Nayru's Love good for edgeguarding against Samus in particular? I can understand Lucas. (unless you meant Lucario, lol)
 

Half-Split Soul

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Why is Nayru's Love good for edgeguarding against Samus in particular? I can understand Lucas. (unless you meant Lucario, lol)
It lasts long enough to stop tether recovery and can be used to fall on Samus if she uses her Up-b. It also protects from missiles and neutral b.

I don´t know if that´s what MRTW113 meant, but anyway.
 

Brinzy

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Sourspotted aerials off-stage aren't the best ones; they're just what you settle for if you miss that sweetspot which is basically guaranteed to kill.
 

MRTW113

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It lasts long enough to stop tether recovery and can be used to fall on Samus if she uses her Up-b. It also protects from missiles and neutral b.

I don´t know if that´s what MRTW113 meant, but anyway.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Fully charged N_B is my first concern. NL can also knock samus off if she tethers from below, which is helpful too. Up-B I would actually stick with dair to counter.
 

SinkingHigher

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NL is only good if the Samus is kind of noob. That's not to say it's useless, but a strong Samus WILL find a way around it, and NL's crazy ending lag is a good way to do that.

Off-stage, NL is good for reflecting spam projectiles, but choose your battles wisely. Sometimes it's better to eat a homing missle than it is to reflect it and eat an Fsmash, dtilt or charge shot.

On stage, if the Samus is stationary and spamming, space yourself and use NL, otherwise you're just going to get punished.

I recommend Din to deal with light-medium spam. Samus is screwed if you know how to space yourself. Stay about 3 to 4 Zeldas away from her and you'll be in a good place to reflect missles and charge shots, force approach, and counter attacks. Don't stay in the air for too long because z-air will **** you, but don't stand still. Learn to SHFF nair and SHADFF (i suppose it would be called).

Anyway, so as not to turn this into a matchup guide...

Zelda's aerials, though powerful, are very much predictable. You need to be in the SAME range for EVERY aerial she's go -- pretty much touching.

Fortunately, she has quite a few multihit attacks, a strong projectile, and a good air dodge/fastfall rate. Lately I've found that if you throw someone off stage with NL, their fully horizontal jump will land them in perfect position for a u-tilt, u smash, or lightning kick.

For example, another Zelda...

NL at edge of stage.
Tap Block or crouch to bait an attack or airdodge (those are the only options for most characters)
Time a counter.

If they air dodge, a utilt or usmash will catch them out of it.
If they attacked, and it's a quick attack like Zelda's spike, you can safely land a lightning kick.

Remember, at this point they cannot jump, they'll have to wait for a new airdodge or attack, and they're off stage so they're probably a bit flustered.

Basically, don't always follow up off stage, that's not Zelda's strength. Baiting, however, is.
 

SinkingHigher

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Even with u-air you need to be, pretty much, within contact range. The explosion happens near her hand and does not have an extended hitbox, so if you can reach up and touch them you can uair them.

Marth, for example, would not have this problem because of the sword (or any other character with a sword or z-air attack)
 

Villi

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The explosion happens near her hand and does not have an extended hitbox
Up air is very disjointed, though I'd be curious if you used "extended" as a purposeful term. Anyway, time it right and you can get Zelda to blast a dummy's feet who is standing on top of one of those chromatic circle things on battlefield from beneath the stage.

Edit: I've had some success predicting double jumps of people wanting to go over my head while edge guarding with double jump up airs. It pretty much causes them to die. Dair is also slightly disjointed -- it has a hitbox that extends slightly beyond the foot and I wouldn't be surprised if the foot was hurtboxless/invincible.
 

SinkingHigher

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Ah, my hitbox terminology is a bit rusty.

What I meant is that the hitbox appears for just a few frames, unlike USmash, Fsmash and n-air for example.

Without a doubt it has the most range of all her aerials, but I mean... You still need to be pretty close.
 

gm jack

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Ah, my hitbox terminology is a bit rusty.

What I meant is that the hitbox appears for just a few frames, unlike USmash, Fsmash and n-air for example.

Without a doubt it has the most range of all her aerials, but I mean... You still need to be pretty close.
In all honesty, not that many people have aerials that have significantly longer range. When the power of her aerials is considered (she has the most powerful Fair, Bair and Uair in the game) I would not say that the range/predictability of them is that bad, as you only have to manage to land it once and they take a lot of damage and knockback, potentially KOing them at the right %age.
 

Kataefi

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Zelda's uair is stronger iirc. This is coming from a thread testing utilts, usmashes and uairs in the tactical boards somewhere. Bowser was second.
 

MrEh

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Zelda's uair is stronger iirc. This is coming from a thread testing utilts, usmashes and uairs in the tactical boards somewhere. Bowser was second.
My bad then. ^^


Oh yeah, running off the stage and Uairing apparently works.
 

MrEh

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Also running off to a sweetspot dair works well too, but it's pretty situational. I've only been able to do it against Fox's and ROB's recoveries, but I'm sure there are others.
Dair on ROB is understandable, since ROB can't airdodge. lol


As for Fox, I would've just grabbed the ledge. Less flashy, but more reliable.
 

Half-Split Soul

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As for Fox, I would've just grabbed the ledge. Less flashy, but more reliable.
You clearly haven´t watched how to play brawl like a man.

Manly players ALWAYS chase their enemies offstage. They also keep attacking them as long as possible. Flashiness is more important than winning.
 

SinkingHigher

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Indeed that's how we roll.

Why do you think most of Brawls techs are pure flash? Coincidence? I think not.

(Kat will get that joke.)
 

gm jack

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Gdub, MK, and Marth say otherwise.
However, against the majority of the cast, her range is pretty good. Even against these people, her aerials are so powerful that they are going to have to be very confident to repeatedly attack you in the air, as the punishment for a mistake could be 20% from a F/Bair, or it could be an early KO.
 

MrEh

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However, against the majority of the cast, her range is pretty good. Even against these people, her aerials are so powerful that they are going to have to be very confident to repeatedly attack you in the air, as the punishment for a mistake could be 20% from a F/Bair, or it could be an early KO.
Haha.

If other characters get into an aerial fight with Zelda, they'll probably win. Zelda requires such precision to land those sweetspots, and almost every character in the game has an aerial that beats or clashes with Zelda's kicks. And even then, the risk for them is worth it, since you can't sweetspot 100% of the time. Really, Zelda's aerials are so awkward for defending herself in the air, that you're better off just getting to the ground as quick as possible. Oh yeah, and she has a blind spot underneath her.

Just because Zelda has some of the strongest aerials in the game, doesn't mean that her air game is good. It's necessary since you need it to kill, but it's not good.
 

gm jack

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Haha.

If other characters get into an aerial fight with Zelda, they'll probably win. Zelda requires such precision to land those sweetspots, and almost every character in the game has an aerial that beats or clashes with Zelda's kicks. And even then, the risk for them is worth it, since you can't sweetspot 100% of the time. Really, Zelda's aerials are so awkward for defending herself in the air, that you're better off just getting to the ground as quick as possible. Oh yeah, and she has a blind spot underneath her.

Just because Zelda has some of the strongest aerials in the game, doesn't mean that her air game is good. It's necessary since you need it to kill, but it's not good.
Aerials cannot clash. They exchange hits.

Quite frankly, I spam the kicks to death, so I can land them the majority of the time. Sure not 100%, but it's enough that after getting hit a couple of times, they do get far more cautious.

I do agree about the blind spot underneath though. The spike can pay off if they are in a sufficiently bad position that they have few options, or have already committed themselves.

I guess it depends on how hard the other character can punish you for a mistake. If it means a 5% hit and a reset, I guess I feel the risk is worth it. If it's going to get me stage spiked, I'll probably use a Dins Fire.
 

Brinzy

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Or how about trading with just about anything for a sweetspot? Zelda does not exchange sourspots all the time.

Zelda should not be trying to trade aerials unless she knows she can land the sweetspot.
 

KayLo!

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If other characters get into an aerial fight with Zelda, they'll probably win. Zelda requires such precision to land those sweetspots, and almost every character in the game has an aerial that beats or clashes with Zelda's kicks. And even then, the risk for them is worth it, since you can't sweetspot 100% of the time. Really, Zelda's aerials are so awkward for defending herself in the air, that you're better off just getting to the ground as quick as possible. Oh yeah, and she has a blind spot underneath her.

Just because Zelda has some of the strongest aerials in the game, doesn't mean that her air game is good. It's necessary since you need it to kill, but it's not good.
This pretty much describes how I feel about Zelda's aerial game. It's super awkward. I don't like it..... gimme dat ground. :urg:

Quite frankly, I spam the kicks to death, so I can land them the majority of the time. Sure not 100%, but it's enough that after getting hit a couple of times, they do get far more cautious.

.....

I guess it depends on how hard the other character can punish you for a mistake. If it means a 5% hit and a reset, I guess I feel the risk is worth it. If it's going to get me stage spiked, I'll probably use a Dins Fire.
The problem is this: not only do her sourspotted kicks (fair/bair/dair) deal stupid low damage, but the knockback and hitstun they give are, quite frankly, pitiful. Even at higher percentages, the other character barely flinches; vs. most characters, you can easily get punished even if you actually land the hit.

You might think it's worth it to trade hits, but when many other characters have aerials that are more damaging and/or can start legit combos on you (and we all know how Zelda hates getting juggled/combo'd), getting that 5% on the mere chance that you might sweetspot doesn't look like such a great trade-off.

I agree with Raphael. Don't go for it unless a) you're trying to combo the sourspot into something else (which will probably be a ground move, so that doesn't pertain to this topic), or b) you know you can get the sweetspot.

I guess you could maybe mess up someone's second jump with a sourspotted kick? I don't see the real benefit, though, and it seems pretty risky considering Zelda's own recovery.
 
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