Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[pineappleupsetshark]

I'm sorry to sound n00bish, but can anyone explain to me what wavedashing is?
I've heard the term a lot online, but it's as if everyone assumes you know what it means, because of course everyone is a hardcore player.
NOT.
As a casual player hoping to be more serious about it when Brawl comes out, I'm sort of confuzzled.

 

[killbeast301]

When you air dodge into the ground at an angle you slide along the ground. It's used to do other stuff

 

[MetalMetaKnight]

Yea, its when you short hop (Pressing Y or X real quick) then Air dodging ( R) in an angle into the ground. You can notice it with luigi.

Anyways....i was wondering...What if they take out WaveDashing in Brawl?

 

[Rash]

I couldn't explain it as well as anyone else, because I'm relatively casual myself, and have yet to learn to actually use it effectively in combat. However, I'm sure that many of the other experienced people here would be willing to tell you.

Thanks for being honest, anyway. It's good to see that not all casual players have an inferiority complex that keeps them from showing any signs of "n00bish" (I hate the term) qualities.

To get the best idea of what a wavedash is, I also suggest going to YouTube and watching some of the videos there. Try to learn about Samus' super wavedash while you're at it.

 

[THK]

I can see one new technique having to do with crawling, maybe another from new gameplay mechanics. But really, I don't see many new techniques appearing in Brawl.

All good fighters have newer techniques that aren't obvious.

 

[Dacvak]

I think you are under the impression that I am saying "WD replaced the dash".NOBODY moves 100% by wavedashing. It is a situational technique. For the 9 or 10 points I mention, WD is used over dashing or where you can't normally dash in the first place. WD probably accounts for less than 5% of movements in a game. But it is crucial to understand, where it is being used and why it matters there.

As usual, you're completely on-point 180. WDing is extremely useful in certain places. My mains are Samus and Luigi, so my movement is just about 50% Wavedashing.

If you watch the two Brawl videos out, you'll notice that the "rolls" backwards with a few of the characters are extremely fast with very little end-lag. I'm thinking this might be a replacement to the WD, as some sort of fast roll.

Either way, I wouldn't like it as much. I use Wavedashing way too much. If it's not in Brawl, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

~Dac

 

[Ace Madcap]

I'd be sad if there was no wavedashing, but I'd still play Brawl.

However, what would tick me off is if they actually put wavedashing in the game as a simple technique that everybody could use without any real effort. That would be horrible.

By the way, we're still going to be able to SHFFL most likely right? Since you can Z-cancel in SSB and L-cancel in SSBM, I assume they'd keep it in SSBB.

Sorry if it's a dumb question. I haven't been paying much attention to the mechanics of Brawl.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I'd be sad if there was no wavedashing, but I'd still play Brawl.

However, what would tick me off is if they actually put wavedashing in the game as a simple technique that everybody could use without any real effort. That would be horrible.

By the way, we're still going to be able to SHFFL most likely right? Since you can Z-cancel in SSB and L-cancel in SSBM, I assume they'd keep it in SSBB.

Sorry if it's a dumb question. I haven't been paying much attention to the mechanics of Brawl.

I dont see how shffling could be gone unless they made fastfalling more timing based like in ssb64.. but I dont see it leaving.

wavedashing.. who knows??

 

[The Hypnotist]

Unless they want to change the whole freakin engine (which they said they won't)...

then WDing is staying...

Unless they want CCing to become broken

 

[180OP]

As usual, you're completely on-point 180. WDing is extremely useful in certain places. My mains are Samus and Luigi, so my movement is just about 50% Wavedashing.

If you watch the two Brawl videos out, you'll notice that the "rolls" backwards with a few of the characters are extremely fast with very little end-lag. I'm thinking this might be a replacement to the WD, as some sort of fast roll.

Either way, I wouldn't like it as much. I use Wavedashing way too much. If it's not in Brawl, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

~Dac

I forgot to mention that it varies from character to character and even the player's mentality. Some people prefer more aerial combat.

But yea, Luigi players, they almost replace their dash with the WD. It just is more practical with him.

I think if it is omitted from Brawl there will be a small mourning period then readjustment occurs. I doubt that they will omitted it. Unless, air dodge is gone.

If that is true that Nintendo has gotten rid of a lot of depth from the game and are trying to close the gap between the experts and noobs. Smash Bros Melee is the DEEPEST fighting game to date in my opinion.

I agree that WD should not be a button just to make it more accessible. This is what draws the line between pros and not-so-pros. There is also a satisfaction in practicing it.

I think I'm done with this WD thread anyways.

 

[Wegus]

Howdy all, I'm just going to throw in my opinion here. (Remember, opinion, i know a lot of you won't like it but it's to stir things up a bit)

I've been playing smash bros since the 64 and i'll be the first to admit that i am darn good at it. BUT, i never use wave-dashing or other similar "advanced techniques". To me that's taking advantage of a glitch to win a game which is akin to cheating. Now before you form ideas in your head that "this noob's just saying this because he sucks at smash", i'm telling you now that i am most definitely not a noob and i am more than capable of taking down an advanced technique player the ol' fashion way.

I'm a player who has a regular playing group with both people who feel the way i do and boycott wave dashing etc, as well as those who do. And there isn't too much of a difference between those who do and those who dont. People just put faaar too much emphasis on these techniques and in the end of the day it's the better player who wins, simple as that.

So i won't be too fussed if they take out wave dashing and L-cancelling and all those other glitches people tend to capitalise on because either way it's not going to affect me. Actually i'd rather see them out if only as a means to iron out the bugs found in melee. It does kind of sadden me though, since so many of you are insisting that they keep a glitch, and because they seem to be doing as much as they can to please the fans i have a strong feeliing that they will keep them in.

Actually, i'm more worried about playing online for the first time. The aforementioned gaming group of mine plays by the principle "winning without honour isn't winning", so we usually frown upon "kicking 'em while they're down" techniques like edge hogging/guarding.

I really reccommend people try it, you'll find it gets rid of a lot of the character tiers, and it becomes much more a cunning and strategic game than a game of "look what i can do lots of!".

Hmm... maybe i should start a thread about home grown rules? Though i'm sure someone already has.

Sorry for the long post! Dig in boys (and gals)!

 

[Pip]

Howdy all, I'm just going to throw in my opinion here. (Remember, opinion, i know a lot of you won't like it but it's to stir things up a bit)

I've been playing smash bros since the 64 and i'll be the first to admit that i am darn good at it. BUT, i never use wave-dashing or other similar "advanced techniques". To me that's taking advantage of a glitch to win a game which is akin to cheating. Now before you form ideas in your head that "this noob's just saying this because he sucks at smash", i'm telling you now that i am most definitely not a noob and i am more than capable of taking down an advanced technique player the ol' fashion way.

I'm a player who has a regular playing group with both people who feel the way i do and boycott wave dashing etc, as well as those who do. And there isn't too much of a difference between those who do and those who dont. People just put faaar too much emphasis on these techniques and in the end of the day it's the better player who wins, simple as that.

So i won't be too fussed if they take out wave dashing and L-cancelling and all those other glitches people tend to capitalise on because either way it's not going to affect me. Actually i'd rather see them out if only as a means to iron out the bugs found in melee. It does kind of sadden me though, since so many of you are insisting that they keep a glitch, and because they seem to be doing as much as they can to please the fans i have a strong feeliing that they will keep them in.

Actually, i'm more worried about playing online for the first time. The aforementioned gaming group of mine plays by the principle "winning without honour isn't winning", so we usually frown upon "kicking 'em while they're down" techniques like edge hogging/guarding.

I really reccommend people try it, you'll find it gets rid of a lot of the character tiers, and it becomes much more a cunning and strategic game than a game of "look what i can do lots of!".

Hmm... maybe i should start a thread about home grown rules? Though i'm sure someone already has.

Sorry for the long post! Dig in boys (and gals)!

Alright Wegus, here's the problem I'm seeing with your arguments. While I can see where you're coming from in terms of wavedashing, which may indeed be a glitch (this is a debateable point, but unfortunately it's impossible to say for certain), boycotting L-canceling, edge-hogging, and edge-guarding doesn't makes sense to me.

I'll start with L-canceling. L-canceling is an element of the game mechanics that existed in SSB64 as Z-canceling. The developers of Melee clearly knew it existed and chose to leave it in. This tells me that the developers had every intention for high level players to take advantage of it. So why would you not try to learn every aspect of the game that the developers intended to create in order to do your best at it?

This ties in to the issue of edge-guarding/hogging somewhat. You say you don't do it because you frown on "kicking them while they're down." Essentially, you're refusing to take advantage of a superior tactical position that your own actions have gained you. What if your opponent was playing, say, Jigglypuff and he tries to use Rest on you. Luckily, through your swift reflexes you shield just in time! Now you have a sleeping Jigglypuff on your hands, completely vulnerable in every way. Would you then not take advantage of your superior tactical position and simply wait for him to wake up rather than charging up a full smash and sending him flying?

Now I'm going to go back to what I was saying before. Edge-hogging/guarding is just another element of the game play. It's part of the way you're supposed to play if you're trying your best to keep your opponent from getting back on the stage in a game where your winning condition is that eventually they don't. All of these things were knowingly put in the game by the developers and I believe they wouldn't have done that if they didn't intend for them to be used.

The same will hold true for wave dashing if it is left in the game for Brawl. By this point, the developers obviously know about wave dashing, so if it is in the game then it represents a conscious decision to have it in the game. What you need to realize is that what such a decision means is that the developers expect the game to be balanced (to the best of their abilities) on all levels of play with all of the game play elements that such levels of play would entail (such as wave dashing in high end play).

Now I can respect the idea that playing with a set of limiting rules might change the game in ways that some people find more fun. There's merit in diversity of play experience. However, you need to not fool yourself into thinking that your special rule set is necessarily the way the game was actually meant to be played.

 

[Adi]

If you don't use wavedashing, and you can apparently beat players who are competent with advanced techniques, than why do you care if it's taken out or not?

 

[psicicle]

Howdy all, I'm just going to throw in my opinion here. (Remember, opinion, i know a lot of you won't like it but it's to stir things up a bit)

I've been playing smash bros since the 64 and i'll be the first to admit that i am darn good at it. BUT, i never use wave-dashing or other similar "advanced techniques". To me that's taking advantage of a glitch to win a game which is akin to cheating. Now before you form ideas in your head that "this noob's just saying this because he sucks at smash", i'm telling you now that i am most definitely not a noob and i am more than capable of taking down an advanced technique player the ol' fashion way.

I'm a player who has a regular playing group with both people who feel the way i do and boycott wave dashing etc, as well as those who do. And there isn't too much of a difference between those who do and those who dont. People just put faaar too much emphasis on these techniques and in the end of the day it's the better player who wins, simple as that.

So i won't be too fussed if they take out wave dashing and L-cancelling and all those other glitches people tend to capitalise on because either way it's not going to affect me. Actually i'd rather see them out if only as a means to iron out the bugs found in melee. It does kind of sadden me though, since so many of you are insisting that they keep a glitch, and because they seem to be doing as much as they can to please the fans i have a strong feeliing that they will keep them in.

Actually, i'm more worried about playing online for the first time. The aforementioned gaming group of mine plays by the principle "winning without honour isn't winning", so we usually frown upon "kicking 'em while they're down" techniques like edge hogging/guarding.

I really reccommend people try it, you'll find it gets rid of a lot of the character tiers, and it becomes much more a cunning and strategic game than a game of "look what i can do lots of!".

Hmm... maybe i should start a thread about home grown rules? Though i'm sure someone already has.

Sorry for the long post! Dig in boys (and gals)!

Sorry, but you are not going to be able to beat somebody who is considered "good" by smashboards standards. Advanced techs add depth to the game; without them, smash would be extremely shallow. I know- I've played for 3 years without the techs and it gets boring. Adv. techs add options, which make your opponent more unpredictable, which in my opinion is more fun.

Playing the game as the developers intended is wrong. Play it however you want to play it- the dev's intentions are not the best. Unless your preferences happen to be the same as what you believe the developers intended (because you don't actually know- all the techs used in SHFFL are intended).

To illustrate my point, do you play with the B button? Wait, that would give you an advantage over somebody who decided not to use it. Is this any different to using a wavedash? If your opponent does not use the B button, that is their fault. If your opponent does not wavedash, that's their fault too.

check this out: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

By the way, how is it cheating when your opponent can do the same? There is no advantage conferred to either player. Also, I'd like to know how simplifying the game makes it more "cunning and strategic".

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I completely agree with Pip.Not taking tactical advantage of an opponent is asinine.

Here,let's nail it down to this.

When you play on a more advanced level,it's obvious that the other players have learned or perfected the mandatory techniques in order to play on that level.So when you enter a tournament,it's no longer about who knows what or what I can do that you cannot.The playing field is still on an equal level,and it's up to the players themselves to take advantage of the techniques and use them when your opponent appears to be at a disadvantage or making a mistake.

Even without advanced techniques,the playing field well still be on the same equillibrium,it's just a matter of who can use there technical skill to an advantage when the situation opts you to,just as in standard play.

Now that I have said that,let me be myself alittle:

Wegas...Boycott? Honor? Please,you really need to pull your head out your *** and think logically before you attempt to question other peoples motives.How can your style of play be cunning and strategic when you implement no strategic actions into your playing style?A true strategist takes advantage of everything available and uses them accordingly to gain an advantage above a standard position.To play strategicly,use must think outside of normal tactics and use something that the opponent hasn't seen before to overall disrupt his playing style.

Here is a tactic: Try to defeat the opponent to the best of your ability.

By limiting what you can do,you are not playing to the best of your ability,and therefore not playing with any tactical advantage.

 

[psicicle]

^
Rude, but I agree nevertheless. Another thing I was wondering was: isn't it dishonorable not to play to the best of your ability? If someone did that to me (who isn't ken or some pro), I would frankly be insulted.

 

[THK]

^
Rude, but I agree nevertheless. Another thing I was wondering was: isn't it dishonorable not to play to the best of your ability? If someone did that to me (who isn't ken or some pro), I would frankly be insulted.

I totally agree with statement. I find not bringing your best game is a complete insult. My philosophy is, if it's there, and able to be used, use it. I don't edge hog that much, because my friends and I like to keep it going as much as possible, plus I like that thrill of a good battle, so I guess I don't play to win, I just play to have a good time. Not to say I don't edge guard or go for that spike though. >>

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I completely agree with Pip.Not taking tactical advantage of an opponent is asinine.

Here,let's nail it down to this.

When you play on a more advanced level,it's obvious that the other players have learned or perfected the mandatory techniques in order to play on that level.So when you enter a tournament,it's no longer about who knows what or what I can do that you cannot.The playing field is still on an equal level,and it's up to the players themselves to take advantage of the techniques and use them when your opponent appears to be at a disadvantage or making a mistake.

Even without advanced techniques,the playing field well still be on the same equillibrium,it's just a matter of who can use there technical skill to an advantage when the situation opts you to,just as in standard play.

Now that I have said that,let me be myself alittle:

Wegas...Boycott? Honor? Please,you really need to pull your head out your *** and think logically before you attempt to question other peoples motives.How can your style of play be cunning and strategic when you implement no strategic actions into your playing style?A true strategist takes advantage of everything available and uses them accordingly to gain an advantage above a standard position.To play strategicly,use must think outside of normal tactics and use something that the opponent hasn't seen before to overall disrupt his playing style.

Here is a tactic: Try to defeat the opponent to the best of your ability.

By limiting what you can do,you are not playing to the best of your ability,and therefore not playing with any tactical advantage.

A **** fine point, EPF. This is probably one of the best posts I've seen out of you in a long time.

* Gives EPF a fabulous No-Prize.*

Alright Wegus, here's the problem I'm seeing with your arguments. While I can see where you're coming from in terms of wavedashing, which may indeed be a glitch (this is a debateable point, but unfortunately it's impossible to say for certain), boycotting L-canceling, edge-hogging, and edge-guarding doesn't makes sense to me.

I'll start with L-canceling. L-canceling is an element of the game mechanics that existed in SSB64 as Z-canceling. The developers of Melee clearly knew it existed and chose to leave it in. This tells me that the developers had every intention for high level players to take advantage of it. So why would you not try to learn every aspect of the game that the developers intended to create in order to do your best at it?

This ties in to the issue of edge-guarding/hogging somewhat. You say you don't do it because you frown on "kicking them while they're down." Essentially, you're refusing to take advantage of a superior tactical position that your own actions have gained you. What if your opponent was playing, say, Jigglypuff and he tries to use Rest on you. Luckily, through your swift reflexes you shield just in time! Now you have a sleeping Jigglypuff on your hands, completely vulnerable in every way. Would you then not take advantage of your superior tactical position and simply wait for him to wake up rather than charging up a full smash and sending him flying?

Now I'm going to go back to what I was saying before. Edge-hogging/guarding is just another element of the game play. It's part of the way you're supposed to play if you're trying your best to keep your opponent from getting back on the stage in a game where your winning condition is that eventually they don't. All of these things were knowingly put in the game by the developers and I believe they wouldn't have done that if they didn't intend for them to be used.

The same will hold true for wave dashing if it is left in the game for Brawl. By this point, the developers obviously know about wave dashing, so if it is in the game then it represents a conscious decision to have it in the game. What you need to realize is that what such a decision means is that the developers expect the game to be balanced (to the best of their abilities) on all levels of play with all of the game play elements that such levels of play would entail (such as wave dashing in high end play).

Now I can respect the idea that playing with a set of limiting rules might change the game in ways that some people find more fun. There's merit in diversity of play experience. However, you need to not fool yourself into thinking that your special rule set is necessarily the way the game was actually meant to be played.

And the post that EPF based his own post on. You, sir, also earn a fabulous No-Prize.

* Gives Pip his No-Prize.*

What I'm trying to say, of course, is that both of these gents have a point. There's nothing wrong with a little diversity among the gaming community, but saying that your way is absolute is something we'd like to call "monumental hubris" and/or "scrubdom" (if we wanna get crass about it, that is). If you expect people in this online community to even acknowledge your existence, you have to ultimately accept the fact that using advanced techniques and edge-hogging are one of the many facets of Melee's gameplay.

Smooth Criminal

P.S. And while we are on the topic of crass, I am just waiting for Dylan to catch wind of this post...

 

[PIMPSLAP]

As in what? Following the how to play guide from in game?

You heard him man. No more L cancelling unless Sakurai says we can in the manual!

Sorry to be sarcastic, but come on now.

I think it would be more intelligent if there was no way brawl ''should'' be played, because the competitive gamers will go their own way, and the casual ones will go theres.

The split I predict will occur right when Brawl comes out, people who want items vs people who don't want items in tournaments.

Obviously no items will win out eventually like they did in melee and the item useres will have to accept that items aren't in tournaments..

but who knows? whole new game, and I dont think we should decide any one way it ''should'' be played.

And about the ''Advanced'' (if you can call them that) techniques, being used every once in a while.. that makes no sense. Either use them consisitently as in L cancel every move you do, or don't do them at all.

Everyone should L cancel by the way. Im sure everyone agrees with that.

Thank you man your awesome i totally agree with every thing you say just like the random stage will be played out in the long run of banning and un banning stages

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Howdy all, I'm just going to throw in my opinion here. (Remember, opinion, i know a lot of you won't like it but it's to stir things up a bit)

I've been playing smash bros since the 64 and i'll be the first to admit that i am darn good at it. BUT, i never use wave-dashing or other similar "advanced techniques". To me that's taking advantage of a glitch to win a game which is akin to cheating. Now before you form ideas in your head that "this noob's just saying this because he sucks at smash", i'm telling you now that i am most definitely not a noob and i am more than capable of taking down an advanced technique player the ol' fashion way.

I'm a player who has a regular playing group with both people who feel the way i do and boycott wave dashing etc, as well as those who do. And there isn't too much of a difference between those who do and those who dont. People just put faaar too much emphasis on these techniques and in the end of the day it's the better player who wins, simple as that.

So i won't be too fussed if they take out wave dashing and L-cancelling and all those other glitches people tend to capitalise on because either way it's not going to affect me. Actually i'd rather see them out if only as a means to iron out the bugs found in melee. It does kind of sadden me though, since so many of you are insisting that they keep a glitch, and because they seem to be doing as much as they can to please the fans i have a strong feeliing that they will keep them in.

Actually, i'm more worried about playing online for the first time. The aforementioned gaming group of mine plays by the principle "winning without honour isn't winning", so we usually frown upon "kicking 'em while they're down" techniques like edge hogging/guarding.

I really reccommend people try it, you'll find it gets rid of a lot of the character tiers, and it becomes much more a cunning and strategic game than a game of "look what i can do lots of!".

Hmm... maybe i should start a thread about home grown rules? Though i'm sure someone already has.

Sorry for the long post! Dig in boys (and gals)!

Awww you guys already jumped all over this tasty scrub, theres nothing left to say to him

Oh well :

"winning without honour isn't winning"

Yes it is. You're just probably not good at winning in smash unless there are a bunch of rules ie handicaps in your favour that help you at winning, so therefore you tell us you have honor.. because you DON'T edgehog? you DON'T have tech-skill?

Look, you made up a way to play smash with your friends, thats fine.

But as soon as you come in hear preaching as if your way of playing is.. anywhere close to something anybody else other than scrubs would want to play than you are sadly mistaken.

You claim these techniques we use are ''exploits'' as if thousands of situational tiny moves and the hours of practice that goes into learning to use them in a real match situation are simple tasks and far above your superior ''honorable'' gamer status.

Please, rethink your life.

Thank you man your awesome i totally agree with every thing you say just like the random stage will be played out in the long run of banning and un banning stages

Thanks, Pimpslap

(I posted that on Demons Account. Heck, demon_machinE didn't even know I was using his account until after I got unbanned)

I'm a player who has a regular playing group with both people who feel the way i do and boycott wave dashing etc, as well as those who do. And there isn't too much of a difference between those who do and those who dont. People just put faaar too much emphasis on these techniques and in the end of the day it's the better player who wins, simple as that.

Yes, but if someone L cancels, and you don't then they're about .. 2x faster than you. If they also fast fall their aerials than that makes them about 4x faster than you.

Do you even short hop? If no, than a real opponent with shffling and wding in melee is about... 6-7 times faster than you just by using those techniques alone.

Granted if you are a smarter player with better mindgames (are those cheap?) you could beat him, also given the person who SHFFLS and WD's does it only to look flashy and it serves no real purpose.

But if you played like... me... in a SSBM match I would 4 stock you gg no re k thx bye. Same goes with like.. 90 percent of this forum. Not the Brawl section, all the people like you post here. So maybe 60 to 75 percent of the brawl forum could beat you in smash and about 93 percent of the entire forum could beat ya in smash.

I exclude a tiny portion of people because theres still the brawl section and as ignorant as you may be my friend, I've seen worse round these parts

 

[Pip]

And the post that EPF based his own post on. You, sir, also earn a fabulous No-Prize.

* Gives Pip his No-Prize.*

Why thank you sir. Nobody doesn't like a No-Prize!!!

(I posted that on Demons Account. Heck, demon_machinE didn't even know I was using his account until after I got unbanned)

Ah, so that was you yourself? (I think most of us had our suspicions...) Well perhaps you would care to answer a question I directed at him earlier in this thread before I knew he was you. I'm still curious about your answer. [post=2471025]Here's a link for your convenience[/post].

 

[180OP]

Alright, stop bashing on Wegus. He's clearly a noob and his understanding of the game and competitive hasn't evolved yet. I can't relate to him but leave him alone.

Do you guys remember Sora Keyblade master thread (which is not there anymore i think). A noob who was saying advanced techniques are a choice and regular play can beat it. And he got 4 stocked by FLT three games in a row something. yeaaa..

Wegus, you knocked someone off the stage to kill him(object of the game, surprise surprise!), so why would you let him back? That's not an advanced technique, that is somethign from the land of obviousness. In a FPS(first person shooter) would you kill somenoe if they had their back towards you? lolz get real.

L-cancel is not a glitch. maybe in 64 it was but not in melee. If you don't use L-cancel, I can guarantee you, you will never win a single game against someone who does. NEVER EVER, EVER NEVER NEVER........EVER!

people stop beating on Wegus, he will learn one day, when he plays against people outside the 4 walls of his group. Attend an MLG or some local tourney.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^
Rude, but I agree nevertheless. Another thing I was wondering was: isn't it dishonorable not to play to the best of your ability? If someone did that to me (who isn't ken or some pro), I would frankly be insulted.

Actually,playing an opponent with the leat amount of effort is dishonorable rather than them playing there best.Them playing there best shows that they are taking you seriously and played with you on a serious level.What's wrong with the opponent being respectful and doing there best?

I would be offended if Ken fooled around with Doc and beat me rather than **** me with Marth.

Treating your opponents equaly=Honor

Treating your opponents like scrubs=Sand Bagging

 

[psicicle]

I think that's what I said.

 

[Wegus]

Alright guys, i get that at tournament level games, advanced techs and stuff ARE part of the game. This is because since everybody else does it then it's either joing 'em or don't bother. Which is something i see as a little dissapointing that at the highest level of competition the players NEED to take advantage of game glitches in order to be competitive.

And trust me, i'm no scrub... I played with all the advanced techs but i grew out of it. All of you talk about all the techniques and strategies they open up which gives the game so much more depth, but you all don't quite realise that there's a plethora of techniqes and strategies which you guys don't use anymore.

I'm also not going to explain the whole honour code but i'm just going to say that when you incapacitate YOURSELF then it's your fault and you offer yourself up to punishement and a bit of laughs from the other players. This is stuff like jigglypuff sending himself to sleep, cracking your own shield, etc are things which we encourage to be taken advantaged of. You are being punished for a poor tactical choice. On the other hand, letting someone get back to the battlefield is like, for example, helping up an opponent in a martial arts tournament. I mean, sure you can pound the crap out of the guy while he's lying on the ground but where's the fun in that? Unless you're sadistic of course...

I know it's not the best way to win, but knowing you beat an opponent after a grueling slug fest is sometimes more rewarding than knocking them down after 10 seconds. Unless it's funny. And in the end I play smash for fun, not to win... I would if there was money involved, but with my mates, then nah...


Just one more thing, I used to be a regular on the smashboards but since there was nothing new to talk about i haven't been on for ages. The only reason why i'm back is to check out the news about brawl. I even had to make a new account.

Well, a lot's changed. Maybe i'm just getting too old for this stuff but it seems the board is dominated by an elitist group of kids who seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude about things. What happened to the healthy debates instead of the agressive "i'm right, you're wrong, i'll kick your *** any day fool!" drivvle is see throughout the forums? No personal attacks really, it's just a little amusing obsevation which is a bit sad at the same time. It's a game guys... get over yourselves?

 

[psicicle]

"Which is something i see as a little dissapointing that at the highest level of competition the players NEED to take advantage of game glitches in order to be competitive."

I'm disappointed that at high levels of play, the players NEED to use the A button in order to be competitive. There is an inherent flaw here.

I believe the definition of scrub is one who plays by made up rules. Being a scrub should not have any negativity associated with it, because playing your own way is fine. However, this honor code does not make sense to me- after all, isn't it your opponent's fault for getting knocked off the stage? Also, things like learning to sweetspot the edge and predicting certain characters' recoveries are no longer needed then.

"but you all don't quite realise that there's a plethora of techniqes and strategies which you guys don't use anymore."

What are they, shield rolling or something? I remember I used to play really long matches where all that we did was shield roll but then the game because boring. NOt really an attack, but I have been playing for a long time without advanced stuff so I'm curious as to what these are.

"I know it's not the best way to win, but knowing you beat an opponent after a grueling slug fest is sometimes more rewarding than knocking them down after 10 seconds. Unless it's funny. And in the end I play smash for fun, not to win... I would if there was money involved, but with my mates, then nah..."

That is completely fine

"Well, a lot's changed. Maybe i'm just getting too old for this stuff but it seems the board is dominated by an elitist group of kids who seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude about things. What happened to the healthy debates instead of the agressive "i'm right, you're wrong, i'll kick your *** any day fool!" drivvle is see throughout the forums? No personal attacks really, it's just a little amusing obsevation which is a bit sad at the same time. It's a game guys... get over yourselves?"

and this is somewhat true.

 

[Pip]

I'm also not going to explain the whole honour code but i'm just going to say that when you incapacitate YOURSELF then it's your fault and you offer yourself up to punishement and a bit of laughs from the other players. This is stuff like jigglypuff sending himself to sleep, cracking your own shield, etc are things which we encourage to be taken advantaged of. You are being punished for a poor tactical choice. On the other hand, letting someone get back to the battlefield is like, for example, helping up an opponent in a martial arts tournament. I mean, sure you can pound the crap out of the guy while he's lying on the ground but where's the fun in that? Unless you're sadistic of course...

I still don't understand the distinction you're making between hitting an incapacitated opponent or hitting an opponent who's been knocked off the edge. In both cases it's THEIR fault, but in both cases it's also their opponent's fault. It's just a question of relative degree. Certainly using Jigglypuff's rest without managing to make it connect can be largely that player's fault, but some credit also must be given to the other player who avoided the attack. Likewise, if you're knocked off the edge by your opponent a lot of credit might be given to them for hitting you, but you YOURSELF are still to blame somewhat for not avoiding his attack.

In both cases a player is put into a poor tactical position and in both cases both the player and his opponent are partly responsible. The only difference is how much it is the opponent's fault and how much it is the player's. So I guess my question for you would be how do you decide where to draw the line?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Alright guys, i get that at tournament level games, advanced techs and stuff ARE part of the game. This is because since everybody else does it then it's either joing 'em or don't bother. Which is something i see as a little dissapointing that at the highest level of competition the players NEED to take advantage of game glitches in order to be competitive.

And trust me, i'm no scrub... I played with all the advanced techs but i grew out of it. All of you talk about all the techniques and strategies they open up which gives the game so much more depth, but you all don't quite realise that there's a plethora of techniqes and strategies which you guys don't use anymore.

I'm also not going to explain the whole honour code but i'm just going to say that when you incapacitate YOURSELF then it's your fault and you offer yourself up to punishement and a bit of laughs from the other players. This is stuff like jigglypuff sending himself to sleep, cracking your own shield, etc are things which we encourage to be taken advantaged of. You are being punished for a poor tactical choice. On the other hand, letting someone get back to the battlefield is like, for example, helping up an opponent in a martial arts tournament. I mean, sure you can pound the crap out of the guy while he's lying on the ground but where's the fun in that? Unless you're sadistic of course...

I know it's not the best way to win, but knowing you beat an opponent after a grueling slug fest is sometimes more rewarding than knocking them down after 10 seconds. Unless it's funny. And in the end I play smash for fun, not to win... I would if there was money involved, but with my mates, then nah...


Just one more thing, I used to be a regular on the smashboards but since there was nothing new to talk about i haven't been on for ages. The only reason why i'm back is to check out the news about brawl. I even had to make a new account.

Well, a lot's changed. Maybe i'm just getting too old for this stuff but it seems the board is dominated by an elitist group of kids who seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude about things. What happened to the healthy debates instead of the agressive "i'm right, you're wrong, i'll kick your *** any day fool!" drivvle is see throughout the forums? No personal attacks really, it's just a little amusing obsevation which is a bit sad at the same time. It's a game guys... get over yourselves?

Allow me to hand you a flame-retardant jacket, boss. There's a glob of internet napalm that's careening through the sky and making a bee-line to your person right about...

...now.

But first, allow me to volunteer being the futile umbrella that shelters you from the blistering goblets of liquid fire and kindly give you my two cents.

First things first. What's so sad about taking advantage of a particular element of gameplay? I mean, honestly. The programmers for Smash left all of the happy crap like wavedashing and L-canceling in for some odd reason, y'know. Whether it was put there to counterbalance wonky side-effects of the game engine or just for s's and g's, it is there. Yes, people at the higher-end levels of play are going to use it and for a twofold reason: One, because it enhances their game and two, because it is apart of the game. People that do not use at least one or two of the advanced techniques at these tourneys are going to find themselves on the losing end 99% of the freakin' time. Nobody goes with the intention to lose, pal---not even I do even though I'm more about the social aspect of it.

Secondly, I would like to thank you for pointing out the bloody obvious. Yeah. If you do incapacitate yourself, then it is your ***. Y'know, GG and all that happy crap. However, knocking the bejeezus outta somebody, sending them out of the area, and keeping them out of the area is okay in my book. This is not martial arts, kid, where there's rote, ritual, mantra, sudra, and kata for every bloody thing you do. This is a video game. Nearly anything goes. Hell, you wanna talk about us taking this **** too seriously, take a look at yourself. Kinda hypocritical, making a code of conduct for something as petty as this.


I don't recall being elitist, kid. Coming in here and sermonizing the whole lot of us about how the advanced techniques are "dishonorable" strikes me as more elitist than anything. Like I said, it boils down to "hubris" (I ain't gonna use scrub, because you obviously don't know what the term means. See the underlined text as the example of misuse). You think that there's a plethora of techniques that we "elitist" punks don't use; to tell you the truth, we've already taken the basics that you so judiciously advocate and employ them in our games all the freakin' time. Y'know, those tilts that you love to use? The C-sticking? The rolling? Even those sneaky B-moves? Yeah. They're there. Clear and as eventual as death itself.

I could go on and rant more about this, but I've expended enough energy. The point is this: Yeah, it is a game. Like anything else, however, it is filtered through different perspectives. Coming into a community like this and mouthing off is unwise and inconsiderate. Be a little more tact.

Smooth Criminal

 

[180OP]

Alright guys, i get that at tournament level games, advanced techs and stuff ARE part of the game. This is because since everybody else does it then it's either joing 'em or don't bother. Which is something i see as a little dissapointing that at the highest level of competition the players NEED to take advantage of game glitches in order to be competitive.

And trust me, i'm no scrub... I played with all the advanced techs but i grew out of it. All of you talk about all the techniques and strategies they open up which gives the game so much more depth, but you all don't quite realise that there's a plethora of techniqes and strategies which you guys don't use anymore.

I'm also not going to explain the whole honour code but i'm just going to say that when you incapacitate YOURSELF then it's your fault and you offer yourself up to punishement and a bit of laughs from the other players. This is stuff like jigglypuff sending himself to sleep, cracking your own shield, etc are things which we encourage to be taken advantaged of. You are being punished for a poor tactical choice. On the other hand, letting someone get back to the battlefield is like, for example, helping up an opponent in a martial arts tournament. I mean, sure you can pound the crap out of the guy while he's lying on the ground but where's the fun in that? Unless you're sadistic of course...

I know it's not the best way to win, but knowing you beat an opponent after a grueling slug fest is sometimes more rewarding than knocking them down after 10 seconds. Unless it's funny. And in the end I play smash for fun, not to win... I would if there was money involved, but with my mates, then nah...


Just one more thing, I used to be a regular on the smashboards but since there was nothing new to talk about i haven't been on for ages. The only reason why i'm back is to check out the news about brawl. I even had to make a new account.

Well, a lot's changed. Maybe i'm just getting too old for this stuff but it seems the board is dominated by an elitist group of kids who seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude about things. What happened to the healthy debates instead of the agressive "i'm right, you're wrong, i'll kick your *** any day fool!" drivvle is see throughout the forums? No personal attacks really, it's just a little amusing obsevation which is a bit sad at the same time. It's a game guys... get over yourselves?

I agree with the 'my way or highway'. No one is forcing you to play with the advanced techniques we are just telling you the reality.

In your first paragraph you acknowledge that to get better at the game, you must know advanced techniques. So you admit you can't beat the people who use advanced techs. It is a change of statement from your first post where you said you didn't care. They aren't glitches either.

If they speed up the game, make it more indepth and open a whole new world by forcing a player to have amazing reflexes, mindgames, linking combos etc why should we not use them? This is the evolutionary process of players. Someone keeps raising the bar. Do you know how much skill it takes to do a JC shine x many times to break a shield? How much practice and finger speed that takes? I will show you at the end of my post somethign cool. but keep reading.

Those plethora of strategies we have abandoned, because of their inferiority to the new ones. Nobody tries to use warlock or falcon punch because they are inaccurate and you will get punished by skilled , fast, players. But I'm not sure which strats you talk about, because the basics of the game are still used.

Third para. Martial arts tourneys and Smash bros are not the same. and not always are people who get knocked off the stage are vulnerable and they also will try to attack you from outside like a Samus or Link or Marth or any character. And it is not easy to edgeguard a skilled opponent. So many mind games can be played. it is not easy to knock them off stage either.

Fourth para. Knock them down after 10 seconds? ARE you kidding me!? I think your friends don't know how to recover or have their controllers plugged in when they are playing.

sixth para. You equate smash bros to real martial arts tourneys then you say 'its a game guys?'

You make huge statements in your first post, now you say 'I only play for fun neways'.

now for the fun part.

People using advanced techniques:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rCfNx6S9qgA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3tHMYLe1lNs

People not using advanced techniques:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3PKjUesSxIs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jz7nUZ-ZX-I&mode=related&search=

That's all I can find on the nonadvanced tech people. Don't laugh when you hear the crowd going 'ooooooooh' (ROFLAMOMAAORMAOMSLD!!! !!111 YOU GUYS GOOTTA SEE THOSE VIDS BAHAHAHAHA!!!111ONe)

Hey I'll stake my laptop if you want vs me without advanced techniques.

good day.

 

[Wegus]

Sigh... I don't quite get how i'm offending people? I mean, it IS a forum, where people express opinions no? If you disagree then by all means tell the forum. Personal attacks and the incessant sarcasm are a little... not in the spirit of, well, a forum? Though it is a bit amusing to see how sensitive some of you guys are to some of these things.

Firstly, i'm not preaching or defending anything, people have different playing styles and i respect that, something that a lot of you have trouble doing. Secondly, i'm not expecting you guys to understand or agree to any honour code, i was just explaining some aspects of ours and i do admit, there are a lot of "fine lines" and "grey areas" but it usually boils down to the group's reaction to a move. Thirdly, the only reason why i bothered to explain it was because someone asked.

But, it seems that there's not much point expressing my opinion here as there seems to be a lot of confirmation bias going on.

So before people keep bashing this supposed n00b, i'd just like to say that my point in this forum was: losing wave dashing isn't so much of a huge loss, the ways of playing a game (such as our way AS AN EXAMPLE... sigh) of smash bros is so diverse that i'm sure everybody would (hopefully) end up enjoying the game for what it is and not what they wanted/not wanted to see. Agree, don't agree, that's fine. Why? Because it's a FORUM.

So that's it kids, i've expressed my opinion. If you see any hybris in my posts or if you feel that i've insulted you in any way, then i apologise. All i wanted to do was to show a more optomistic perspective to what i saw as a very pesemistic view of losing wave-dashing.

Catch

 

[Reno>]

Wavedash is essential, or some form of quick spacing,it makes the game fast, fun, and fluid. Be like water my friend.

 

[NES n00b]

Wegus, you are a hypocrite. Sorry for the strong word, but it's the truth. They are defending their position just like you are.

If you call them touchy, you must call youself touchy because both sides seem to have the same tone. If you call them elitist for sneering on nonadvance techniques users, then you must be called elitist for saying that you look down on the pros for using advance techniques.

 

[psicicle]

"Firstly, i'm not preaching or defending anything, people have different playing styles and i respect that, something that a lot of you have trouble doing."

before:

"To me that's taking advantage of a glitch to win a game which is akin to cheating."

"i am most definitely not a noob and i am more than capable of taking down an advanced technique player the ol' fashion way"

"I really reccommend people try it, you'll find it gets rid of a lot of the character tiers, and it becomes much more a cunning and strategic game than a game of "look what i can do lots of!"."

""winning without honour isn't winning", so we usually frown upon "kicking 'em while they're down" techniques like edge hogging/guarding. "

Now again: "Sigh... I don't quite get how i'm offending people?"

oh wait...

"it seems the board is dominated by an elitist group of kids who seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude about things"

Apparently you would not edgeguard or edgehog:

"Unless you're sadistic of course"

Reread your own posts before asking how ou have offended people.

EDIT:
Also, the comment about the "disappearance" of tiers is kind of wrong. Chars like ganon, bowser, DK without L-cancelling or shorthop stand little chance against a fox playing by the same "rules".

ICs become pretty much awful, assuming than chaingrabs are an advanced tech. THeir wavedash being gone would also make them vastly worse than a fox or falco, who would still remain at the top of the lists.

Luigi without wavedash is very slow

Full jumped arials are usually very punishable with an uptilt or smash so I'm guessing that captain falcon would suck too.

THe list goes on. Fox and falco stay at the top- they do not rely on wavedashing or L-cancelling and the more frequent smash attack opportunities combined with their fast smashes seperate them even more from the already low-tiers.

 

[Pip]

Wegus, you are a hypocrite. Sorry for the strong word, but it's the truth. They are defending their position just like you are.

If you call them touchy, you must call youself touchy because both sides seem to have the same tone. If you call them elitist for sneering on nonadvance techniques users, then you must be called elitist for saying that you look down on the pros for using advance techniques.

He's right Wegus. If you don't want to deal with confrontation then you should try to be less confrontational about what you say. Surely you understand that if you're going to imply that how the people here play is dishonorable, sadistic, wrong, cheating, etc., they're likely to take offense. What's more, I was very careful to phrase my own post in as a respectful a manner as I could, and you haven't even responded to it.

 

[Idfection]

Like I said, it boils down to "hubris" (I ain't gonna use scrub, because you obviously don't know what the term means. See the underlined text as the example of misuse).

That line made my day.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Alright guys, i get that at tournament level games, advanced techs and stuff ARE part of the game. This is because since everybody else does it then it's either joing 'em or don't bother. Which is something i see as a little dissapointing that at the highest level of competition the players NEED to take advantage of game glitches in order to be competitive.

Wow,you're pretty dense.

Do you actually believe that people win because they abuse a few techniques?I personally don't believe it,because no one who has been in the competative scene would think that professional players simply live on WaveDashes and L-cancel.The tournament communities best players are where they are today because they implement what they know well,and have a good mind set.You cannot simply win by abusing a few techniques,it requiers developed skill and quick reflexes to react to situations.You lack basic reasoning

And trust me, i'm no scrub... I played with all the advanced techs but i grew out of it. All of you talk about all the techniques and strategies they open up which gives the game so much more depth, but you all don't quite realise that there's a plethora of techniqes and strategies which you guys don't use anymore.

No,you are a scrub.Despite the fact they you may know how to execute those techniques,you are still a scrub because of your mentality,and not acknowledging them as an establish playing style.Thinking of us as elitist in a common misunderstanding when the accuser refuses to acknowledge his weaknesses and continues to think that he knows best.It's quite the opposite; you're just thick headed.

There is a plethora of techniques that we don't use,but does that make then any good to use?Let's see,we have:

-Spam C-stick
-Dash attack all day
-Wait for enemy to come on stage
-Spam Up B

Wow,what a great plethora of techniques.Any other great techniques that you'd like to contribute to us misinformed and elitist smashers?

I'm also not going to explain the whole honour code but i'm just going to say that when you incapacitate YOURSELF then it's your fault and you offer yourself up to punishement and a bit of laughs from the other players. This is stuff like jigglypuff sending himself to sleep, cracking your own shield, etc are things which we encourage to be taken advantaged of. You are being punished for a poor tactical choice. On the other hand, letting someone get back to the battlefield is like, for example, helping up an opponent in a martial arts tournament. I mean, sure you can pound the crap out of the guy while he's lying on the ground but where's the fun in that? Unless you're sadistic of course...

Really? If someone was trying to kill you,and you already have a gun to his head,would you splatter his brain on the wall,or would you wait for him to do it?

Why should we support and acknowledge mistakes the opponent makes? If is shield broke,he was being too defensive.Does that mean we should wait for him to recover from it or take advantage of the mistake on HIS own end to further bring you towards your objective?

Why should we wait for the opponent to recover when the objective of the game is to get the opponent off?Just because he is vulnerable? Part of fighting games and games in general is to explore vulnerabilities in your opponent and take advantage of it.

You may consider this honor,but in the real world,when you get into an actual fight,you better beat the **** out of him,because if you help him up,you're going to get the beating.

I know it's not the best way to win, but knowing you beat an opponent after a grueling slug fest is sometimes more rewarding than knocking them down after 10 seconds. Unless it's funny. And in the end I play smash for fun, not to win... I would if there was money involved, but with my mates, then nah...

That's why people play diffirently in friendly matches.It isn't rewarding to wait for your opponent all day.That's next to sand bagging,and it's very annoying and time consuming.There is an 8 min. time limit,and i'll be ****ed if i'm going to waste you fooling around and holding my opponents hand.

Just one more thing, I used to be a regular on the smashboards but since there was nothing new to talk about i haven't been on for ages. The only reason why i'm back is to check out the news about brawl. I even had to make a new account.

There is no way in hell i'll believe that.You're just a scrub.

Well, a lot's changed. Maybe i'm just getting too old for this stuff but it seems the board is dominated by an elitist group of kids who seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude about things. What happened to the healthy debates instead of the agressive "i'm right, you're wrong, i'll kick your *** any day fool!" drivvle is see throughout the forums? No personal attacks really, it's just a little amusing obsevation which is a bit sad at the same time. It's a game guys... get over yourselves?

Getting old? There are more people on this forum who are above your age group rather than below it.Believe it or not,you contradicted yourself,because you are doing the same as us,defending what you think is right.If it's only a game,then why do you b other to come on these forums which is made for the competative community just to do the same thing you say we're doing?Don't call anyone kids,because you're acting like a child yourself by not using common sense and acknowledging flaws in your arguments.

Why don't you get over youreslf and leave if you're too mature to this stuff?

 

[v3x?]

So much anger, so much hate =/

Pheonix: Calm down! lol

Infact sorry, i don't mean to pick on you - Everyone calm down! lol

This thread is... well its supposed to be exciting! It's supposed to make you think... 'man i really cant wait to play brawl and find out weather i can wavedash or not' or something nice like that.

Spread the peace like butter. ^^

 

[Rash]

I think people need to just stop worrying and move on. It never helps to dwell on things, and the wavedash is no exception.

It just seems stupid to argue about, especially after all this time. Ever since Brawl's been announced people have been going on and on about whether or not it'll be in Brawl and why it is so important to the mechanics of Smash. But honestly, isn't everyone just a bit tired of talking about it? When's it going to end, guys?

I say everyone just stops until we get solid proof that wavedash is in or out.

 

[180OP]

I was done with this thread a while back until Wegus changed the entire topic. Yea i think this topic has discussed everything that needed to be said and deserves a close.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

I was done with this thread a while back until Wegus changed the entire topic. Yea i think this topic has discussed everything that needed to be said and deserves a close.

Wait wait...lol

And trust me, i'm no scrub... I played with all the advanced techs but i grew out of it.

Man, I wish I was able to grow out of advanced techniques...LOL.