Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[whiterob]

It ok dude, I'm just tired of everyone arguing over the same things (and cuz it 11 right now).

 

[MetalMetaKnight]

Well to me, some of the "Advanced Techniques" are ok to use every once in a while, but i think that Brawl should be played as it is released to be played.

 

[NES n00b]

Well to me, some of the "Advanced Techniques" are ok to use every once in a while, but i think that Brawl should be played as it is released to be played.

What do you mean by this statement? I love advance techniques and I always use them. To me, using advance techniques to push the limits of the game is the most fun I can have (with that game). So why not have advance techniques so that you and I can play exactly the way we want.

If you are not arguing against wavedashing or other advance techniques being in Brawl then ignore this statement. I am sort of confused what you are trying to say.

Edit: Also, I think Brawl should be played with advance techniques so yeah.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Well to me, some of the "Advanced Techniques" are ok to use every once in a while, but i think that Brawl should be played as it is released to be played.

As in what? Following the how to play guide from in game?

You heard him man. No more L cancelling unless Sakurai says we can in the manual!

Sorry to be sarcastic, but come on now.

I think it would be more intelligent if there was no way brawl ''should'' be played, because the competitive gamers will go their own way, and the casual ones will go theres.

The split I predict will occur right when Brawl comes out, people who want items vs people who don't want items in tournaments.

Obviously no items will win out eventually like they did in melee and the item useres will have to accept that items aren't in tournaments..

but who knows? whole new game, and I dont think we should decide any one way it ''should'' be played.

And about the ''Advanced'' (if you can call them that) techniques, being used every once in a while.. that makes no sense. Either use them consisitently as in L cancel every move you do, or don't do them at all.

Everyone should L cancel by the way. Im sure everyone agrees with that.

 

[180OP]

Well to me, some of the "Advanced Techniques" are ok to use every once in a while, but i think that Brawl should be played as it is released to be played.

Why do you think like that? That's pretty closeminded. There will always be people who think outside the box and figure out techniques to enhance the gameplay/skill level. I don't remember seeing WD in the how to play tutorial for Melee. Or Link's Bomb Recovery or Falco's short hop lasering. I'm not even sure if shorthop was ever mentioned in the booklet. Nintendo put things there that they never told about and waited for the smash community to evolve by itself why else would they not disclose techniques they put in there.

As years go by the community evolves and stretch the limits of the game.

Some of the advanced techniques are 'OK'? I don't think so. There are techniques that you just can't do without. Like l cancel. No one will except being confined to the 'way brawl is meant to be played'.

 

[MetalMetaKnight]

No No No, i mean if there are advanced stuff in brawl im fine with it, im not saying i dont like wavedashing or L- cancelin', in fact, i use em alot. What i meant was that if brawl is played like SSBM and it still has advanced stuff or even more, then its fine, if the game were to be released like that, then ill use the techniques to my advantage like everyone else would.

So im not against anyone in this topic, im just stating an opinion

 

[NES n00b]

Oh, should have made your statement more clear. >_>

Anyways, who needs wavedashing if moonwalking was confirmed in the Brawl. Am I right?

 

[petre]

lol, i can see it now, the next update... 'moonwalking is fun! ...falcon is a sexy beast!'

 

[Rash]

The only reason people are worried about the wavedash is because they've become so attached to it. Like a little kid to their stuffed animal or something. When you think about it, it's really silly.

There's no sense in removing the wavedash, or any other advanced techniques from the game's design/engine. What's there is there; nothing will be gained from the removal of anything we saw from Melee, so all of it should stay in. Hell, Brawl's pretty much being rushed, so it's hard not to believe nearly everything from Melee will stay in based on convenience alone. Brawl will not end up being Melee 2.0, as I see it. The game will turn out to be a complete overhaul on the cosmetic level, mostly, but will see vast improvements in content. However, based on principle alone the basics of battle should most likely stay the same, with of course some major additions when it comes to new characters and revamps of old characters.

This is all pure logic, stuff that wavedash enthusiasts can't seem to grasp because of their blindness caused by over-worrying about something as outlandish as the possibility of the wavedash not being in Brawl.

 

[Demon_machinE]

No No No, i mean if there are advanced stuff in brawl im fine with it, im not saying i dont like wavedashing or L- cancelin', in fact, i use em alot. What i meant was that if brawl is played like SSBM and it still has advanced stuff or even more, then its fine, if the game were to be released like that, then ill use the techniques to my advantage like everyone else would.

So im not against anyone in this topic, im just stating an opinion

No problem dude. BTW I'm a metalhead like.. big time. Hair down almost to my butt and everything, so I find your posting name to be AWESOME!!!!

 

[Sandy]

If you'd cut your hair, you might be able to read the posts better.

 

[MetalMetaKnight]

No problem dude. BTW I'm a metalhead like.. big time. Hair down almost to my butt and everything, so I find your posting name to be AWESOME!!!!

Rock on dude, Rock on! Falco for the Win And for the 3 ppl who literaly attacked me out of the open, sorry for not makin myself clear early ^.^;;;

 

[Demon_machinE]

If you'd cut your hair, you might be able to read the posts better.

Hey I really don't appreciate your negative attitude. Could you please try to be a bit more respectful?

As you can see I was just paying my buddy Metalmetaknight a compliment and you came in with your negativity and ruined a good vibe.

Come on man, cheer up

 

[NES n00b]

If you'd cut your hair, you might be able to read the posts better.

What do you mean by this? Is it because a total of three people misunderstood Metal's post but you don't like Demon Machine so you jump on his case. If you mean everything else, whatever if you read the later posts you will see he got a lot better at being considerate of others posters.

@Metal It's all right man. I just really did not know what you meant. Hopefully, I did not sound like I was attacking/flamming you.

 

[J4ke]

How does a recognized glitch ( while still an advanced technique ) translate from one game to a COMPLETELY different game?

My point being, you cannot worship doing the advanced techniques in one individual game ( SSBM ) and ignore the absence of the SAME application of these techniques in a COMPLETELY different game ( SSBB ) while there still will VERY LIKELY be different, better, or more fun game modes, gameplay, or, holy hell, advanced techniques POSSIBLY similar to wavedashing in melee.

I know what its like to be a perfectionist, and striving for being the best because of an elitist attitude to something that not everyone can do in a game, particularly from the perspective of doing all the advanced techs in melee. But I dont understand ignorance of a new games possibility of improving on a known glitch.

 

[Darkfur]

How does a recognized glitch ( while still an advanced technique ) translate from one game to a COMPLETELY different game?

My point being, you cannot worship doing the advanced techniques in one individual game ( SSBM ) and ignore the absence of the SAME application of these techniques in a COMPLETELY different game ( SSBB ) while there still will VERY LIKELY be different, better, or more fun game modes, gameplay, or, holy hell, advanced techniques POSSIBLY similar to wavedashing in melee.

I know what its like to be a perfectionist, and striving for being the best because of an elitist attitude to something that not everyone can do in a game, particularly from the perspective of doing all the advanced techs in melee. But I dont understand ignorance of a new games possibility of improving on a known glitch.

What glitches are you talking about?

I thought this topic was talking about Wavedashing, L Canceling and the like. All of which are not glitches.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Hi everyone! miss me? Thought ya might

How does a recognized glitch ( while still an advanced technique ) translate from one game to a COMPLETELY different game?

My point being, you cannot worship doing the advanced techniques in one individual game ( SSBM ) and ignore the absence of the SAME application of these techniques in a COMPLETELY different game ( SSBB ) while there still will VERY LIKELY be different, better, or more fun game modes, gameplay, or, holy hell, advanced techniques POSSIBLY similar to wavedashing in melee.

I know what its like to be a perfectionist, and striving for being the best because of an elitist attitude to something that not everyone can do in a game, particularly from the perspective of doing all the advanced techs in melee. But I dont understand ignorance of a new games possibility of improving on a known glitch.

Well first of all wavedashing isn't a glitch and second of all it should be in brawl because it rocked hard in melee and it's part of 97% if not more of the competitive smash communities game.

It is not the be all end all technique to worship and praise as a god, but it IS useful and it DOES quicken up the game, and it does open the game up to new strategies.

Also, its pathetically easy to do to the point where calling it an ''advanced'' technique seems kind of funny to me.

To me the only techniques that seem ''advanced'' are like... PERFECT shining out of a nair on a shield, that timing is hard to get.

Or drillshine wavedash upsmash on falcon shiek or peach. Some people do it so easily but I only just started getting it consistently.. after 2 months of REALLY training my fox.. so meh.

 

[NES n00b]

How did you do that Dylan? >_>

I wish I can come back from bans unexpecetdly.

I don't even know what J4ke is even saying so I can't argue against him. Lol

Edit: I never thought waveshining was hard after getting down wavedashing perfectly.

 

[Aryman]

Quick question: was it ever confirmed that WD was a glitch? Anyone have any references citing Sakurai or any developers on this? I'd like to know if it was meant to be in the game in the first place.

I played on a tourney once where I faced a Samus that wavedashed pretty much constantly, all over the place. He would just slide around back and forth and wait for me to come to him. I just stood on my platform still and it was pretty funny to see him move around needlessly. Then when he finally came at me I killed him w/o taking dmg and without WD once.

People seem to think WD gives them more of an edge than it really does. Mindgames as well as being able to read your opponent's intentions are more important, at least in my opinion.

 

[J4ke]

what im saying is not playing brawl because something as insignificant as wavedashing not being in is stupid. the likelyhood that wavedashing will be removed, improved on, or changed all together is high. Melee is good with it. Brawl will likely be an improvement, because its a new game with a great director who recognizes the condition of melee's glitches, techniques, wavedashing, whatever the hell you want to call it.

Just rational thought.

 

[180OP]

Quick question: was it ever confirmed that WD was a glitch? Anyone have any references citing Sakurai or any developers on this? I'd like to know if it was meant to be in the game in the first place.

I played on a tourney once where I faced a Samus that wavedashed pretty much constantly, all over the place. He would just slide around back and forth and wait for me to come to him. I just stood on my platform still and it was pretty funny to see him move around needlessly. Then when he finally came at me I killed him w/o taking dmg and without WD once.

People seem to think WD gives them more of an edge than it really does. Mindgames as well as being able to read your opponent's intentions are more important, at least in my opinion.

Usefulness varies from character to character. Do you think Bombsoldier could pull off the combos he does without it? nope. He has to do it to chase the combo.

It is a very useful technique. But I wouldn't commit myself to not play brawl if WD was omitted from the game. I don't worship this technique. When noobs learn this technique for the first time they think they are on top of the world and they like to WD all over the places. doesn't help if you dont know how to channel it and use it in the appropriate places. And that's why they would not play brawl is because the only thing that made them 'cool' was the wavedash.

DEFINITELY NOT SAYING DEMON MACHINE IS A NOOB!

I would definitely be pissed off if L CANCEL was omitted. But I would still play Brawl. I just have too. 6-7 years of Melee. It's time for something new.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

People seem to think WD gives them more of an edge than it really does. Mindgames as well as being able to read your opponent's intentions are more important, at least in my opinion.

I agree. Wavedash spammers who think moving around with the wavedash is a good idea will get 4 stocked by any competent player with spacing / mindgames.

Wavedashing gives you no edge if you abuse it, but it gives you a big one if you know when and where to use it for the right reasons. Hence why it should stay in brawl, not only does it take a bit of practice to be able to do consistently and at the full legnth (or a shorter legnth via triangle jumping for different spacing) it also requires months or years of practice depending on how often you play to be able to use it properly.

Doesn't hurt the newbies since they won't use it, doesn't hurt the pros because they all consider it to be a good technique. It should stay.

It is a very useful technique. But I wouldn't commit myself to not play brawl if WD was omitted from the game. I don't worship this technique. When noobs learn this technique for the first time they think they are on top of the world and they like to WD all over the places. doesn't help if you dont know how to channel it and use it in the appropriate places. And that's why they would not play brawl is because the only thing that made them 'cool' was the wavedash.

Yeah I totally agree. But I'm still not playing Brawl if there's no wavedash because I actually KNOW how to use it, as you can see from my anti WD n00b opinions. I don't wavedash to be cool, I do so for the proper reasons, spacing mindgames techchasing punishing, defensive spacing, etc.

WD noobs are worse than the noobs who dont do it at all. AND easier to kill I might add

DEFINITELY NOT SAYING DEMON MACHINE IS A NOOB!

**** straight. I don't get my fox's *** 2 stocked by some n00b

 

[Justin Wiles]

Hmm...

Do you notice that everyone seems upset with the idea that they might not be good at Brawl the first time they play?

It just really seems to me that noone is interested in practicing this game when it comes out. People are talking like they're going to be missing something if they're not as good at Brawl as they are in Melee right away. What's with that?

Melee has perhaps become so closely tied to one's pride that they can't bare the shame being a newbie again.

Anyway, that's just what I'm seeing. I personally don't care about it either way... the appeal of Smash Bros. to me has all ways been the characters, and Snake has all ready sold me, heheh. Wherever the competitive scene goes, I'll simply follow.

 

[Demon_machinE]

**** straight. I don't get my fox's *** 2 stocked by some n00b

haha, I ****ing pwn your noob spirit. ***

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

haha, I ****ing pwn your noob spirit. ***

Pffft please, I'm gonna 4 stock you big today.

Melee has perhaps become so closely tied to one's pride that they can't bare the shame being a newbie again.

True... very true! I mean.. who want's to be a n00bcake? Show of hands...

Anyone? anyyyone?

Thought so. Being a n00b is terribly lame. No one wants to be one... but I dont think removing wavedashing is gonna make brawl any more of an original game.. I would trust HAL to have changed the game in every area other than the techniques and possibly the physics so much so that we will all be n00bs when we first start playing.

For a bit, hopefully like.. before the first tournies, people would be pro.

 

[Aryman]

I think it took everyone some time to get used to Melee when it first came out, because it was so different that th 64 version. So we were all noobs for a bit, maybe for a couple of hours. Might happen for Brawls as well, but it's not like it will be for that long. We're all gonna be playing it non-stop (those who don't boycott it anyway) when it first comes out so this shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Dacvak]

Here's the deal about Wavedashing in Melee... Right before the game was released, when they were in the post-beta testing phases, they discovered wavedashing. They left it in the game supposedly because A. It was too close to launch, and B. they didn't think it would affect the gameplay.

My point is that if they knew it was in Melee before it was released in America, they could have fixed it (like they fixed some glitches) in the PAL versions or 1.1 version. They didn't, and so they probably didn't care that much. But now, any good smasher will show you how Wavedashing is crazy important.

Here's the thing... If you look at some of the trailers, it honestly looks like a few characters are Wavedashing, but you can clearly see them stepping out of the 2D realm, which indicates a fast roll. Of course, Pit's "roll" that he demonstrated in one of the videos, is just retardedly fast. This sort of indicates either fast-rolls, or advanced rolling techniques that might be used in place of Wavedashing.

This is all just speculation, though. If Sakurai is good at Smash, he'll leave Wavedashing in.

~Dac

 

[The Hypnotist]

Here's my thoughts n WDing in brawl. Unless they want to change the entire engine of the game, then it's here to stay, or they could remove Air Dodging. Or that can make CCing over powered! HAHAHA. Now I don't want to turn this into WDing is not suppose to be in SSBM! Because the matter of the fact is if it's in Brawl then WDing is suppose to be in Brawl, and it's not cheating. I do personally think everyone's WD should be the same length. I'm sorry but Luigi is not suppose to be as fast as Fox. Period. When a "newb" complains, WDing makes the game unfair and broken, he never explains why it's broken. And if he says "it's not suppose to be in the game" then Nintendo has acepted it, it stayed in the PAL version. I can't wait, when it's in SSBB then they can't do anything. If your going to say that anything in the game having to do with skill in the game shouldn't there be no...

SHLing
Wavedashing
Wall Of Pain
Fox Troting
Chain Throwing
L-Canceling
Shuffling
Waveshinning
Turnip Canceling
Missle Canceling
V-Dropping
Q-Dropping

the list goes on...

But the point is, when people complain about these things they really have no reason. "they are broken!" but they never explain how. "They weren't meant to be in the game!" Prove it, why weren't they taken out of PAL. WDing should be in Brawl, but it should be a little more polished, and everyone should have around the same length.

 

[Pip]

Hey Demon Machine, what I don't understand is why you think you won't be able to compete in Brawl if there isn't wavedashing. Obviously you didn't always know wavedashing, but rather you had to learn it at some point. You took the time and effort to teach yourself the advanced techniques so that you could play more competitively in Melee. Essentially, you learned how to play the high end of the game.

Regardless of whether wavedashing is in Brawl or not, the high end game will probably change somewhat from Melee. It's just a question of degree. Sure you'll have to learn some new things and adapt your play style to make the most of the Brawl system, but so will everyone else. You did it once before, so why can't you do it again?

 

[THK]

Didn't read much posts.

If wavedashing is removed, will I be dissappointed in Brawl? No. If the techniques I always used before I learned they were advanced techniques (L canceling, I did it all the time didn't think it was THAT special. Short hopping, did this a lot in many SNK fighters that had it, didn't think it was that special I just wanted to close gaps. SHFFL, kay I used to do this without the fast falling, but I mixed that in when I wanted to get to the ground faster) were removed? I may be a bit bothered.

However,

For everything removed, there is something added. If one technique is gone there will be another. I'm excited for Brawl, even if it feels different, I'll adjust to it. I've played enough fighting games to get used to this.

Though all and in all I believe it's pretty much the fear of falling back off the ladder and having to climb back up again. It's discouraging, but to me it's motivating. I'd rather everyone have a fresh start, so every player has a chance and not be intimidated by the more experienced players.

And finally, wavedashing is NOT a glitch. It's just a manipulation of the game's physics. If it can be used, why not abuse it?

 

[BrTarolg]

"

But the point is, when people complain about these things they really have no reason. "they are broken!" but they never explain how. "They weren't meant to be in the game!" Prove it, why weren't they taken out of PAL. WDing should be in Brawl, but it should be a little more polished, and everyone should have around the same length."

if they did that they might aswell add a "wavedash button"

ok howabout this.

dashing, REGULAR dashing, is better than wavedashing in almost EVERY sense. its faster <0 frame lag> - you can do ANY ground attack out of it, just like wavedashing. you can use it to carry momentum into a shorthop, or you can change direction INSTANTLY with like, a 2 frame lag <compared to wavedashes 6 frames or something> - if you pivot you can space IMMACULATELY and stop your momentum WHENEVER you want. if you dash crouch you can both crouch cancel AND do any attacks from running at full speed, without having to slow down for each wavedash. you can choose to do both dash OR regular grab, OR DAGC grabs.
for the majority of characters, it has a higher max speed, and is FASTER. for those characters who have a SLOWER dash simply fox trot and then pivot back and forward and fox trot again.

in fact the only advantage WD has is that it counts as a jump, but EVEN THEN you can still pivot dash for INSTANT edgehogs

given that the only reason "pros" use wavedash and wavelanding all the time is because its way easier than landing, 1 frame crouching, and then fox trotting for the optimal frame time and then pivoting backwards and forwards whilst being able to do ANY attack blah blah blah.

dashing is WAY more common than wavedashing, for very obvious reasons.

if WD were to go, simply put dashing would be the new way to move, and it would probably be a BETTER way to move, just harder.

and seeing as most of you have no problem spamming impossible techs all the time, this cant be a problem >_>

 

[Adi]

Yes I'm glad someone pointed this out. If you had perfect control over jump-canceling and crouch canceling dashes than there is a perfect alternative to wavedashing (although you wouldn't be able to move out of shine and shield as fast =P). In fact if Brawl didn't have wavedashing there would be even more of a difference between the lower level players and higher level players, so it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

 

[BrTarolg]

yeah in fact i have noticed recently alot of the best london players and recent videos showing the best players WDing less and less, simply because it doesnt have as many applications as other forms of movement

for example, its usually pretty slow to do aerials from a WD, and the spacing isnt as tight as dashing <aswell as the fact that WD can screw up your momentum>

but anyways, brawl will be a different game, its not just "melee 2.0" - the competetive scene will change. no doubt its STILL going to be very competetive, and im sure the developers will make it so that you can STILL be competetive, but i doubt we are going to see any more "infinite waveshines" or "v dropping" or other obscure techs like that

instead there will be a whole NEW wave of obscure techs for us to discover - wont that be fun :D

 

[180OP]

I guess people are afraid of re-learning the game. They enjoy their authoritive positions over their friends or locale.

Isai owned SSB64 then had to re-learn to play Melee which Ken owned (but now is getting sized up by a few players.). Who knows who will reign in Brawl.

What I am thinking the devs at ninty are gonna do is make WD more accessible. say you wavedash backwards with falco and want to go into a SHL. You can't jump immediately from the WD, you have to wait a lil for the animation to end. Maybe the devs will correct that and make it so that you can jump out at any point.

That is a reason why I think WD is a physics exploit and not an intention technique in the game.

 

[Sandy]

I dont see what there is to wave dashing that everyone likes. Does it actually make you play better and is it worth perfecting? Personally I think it was a waste of time to even perform it.

 

[spoonyd]

Hmm...

Do you notice that everyone seems upset with the idea that they might not be good at Brawl the first time they play?

It just really seems to me that noone is interested in practicing this game when it comes out. People are talking like they're going to be missing something if they're not as good at Brawl as they are in Melee right away. What's with that?

Melee has perhaps become so closely tied to one's pride that they can't bare the shame being a newbie again.

Anyway, that's just what I'm seeing. I personally don't care about it either way... the appeal of Smash Bros. to me has all ways been the characters, and Snake has all ready sold me, heheh. Wherever the competitive scene goes, I'll simply follow.

You are right on here. People are so hooked on immediate gratification. Anything worth being good at takes work and dedication. I still see threads from people who are mad because they can't WD perfectly in a week and whine while asking for some "immediate" solution when all they require is a work ethic.

Same thing goes for Brawl. I'm very convinced there will be several advanced techniques that cannot be mastered in a day. Those who put the time in and work at it will show promise. Sure it's frustrating to air dodge when you try to WD when you're learning and get punished for your misclick. Everyone was there once.

 

[Mr.GAW]

SandTiger-

Watch a Luigi vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a Luigi vid WITH wavedashing.

Watch a IC vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a IC vid WITH wavedashing.

Watch a Samus vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a Samus vid WITH wavedashing.


Do you see?

 

[Sandy]

SandTiger-

Watch a Luigi vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a Luigi vid WITH wavedashing.

Watch a IC vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a IC vid WITH wavedashing.

Watch a Samus vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a Samus vid WITH wavedashing.


Do you see?

Thanks, but I'm a Falco player

 

[Crispy4001]

SandTiger-

Watch a Luigi vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a Luigi vid WITH wavedashing.

Watch a IC vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a IC vid WITH wavedashing.

Watch a Samus vid without wavedashing.

Now watch a Samus vid WITH wavedashing.


Do you see?

I see the difference. All those characters have a better fighting chance thanks to wave dashing. Luigi in particular would be a pretty broken character without it.

 

[RaptorHawk]

I havnt read too much of this topic but I'm curious about something. It seems to me like most of the people who dont want wavedashing back are people who cant do it as second nature.

I'd like people who CAN do it as second nature and dont want it back to post. Personally I think it adds a lot to the mind games of smash and I see absolutely no reason to take it away.

I think theres a 99% chance it will stay in the game. People seem to contantly complain that it wasnt intended. Well L cancelling was not intended in ssb64 and they kept it for melee because it just added to the game.

So yea if your against it but can do it by second nature I'd like to know why, because it really seems like most of the people against it are the ones that are too lazy to learn how to do it.