At the risk of getting a rather large *** kicking from you guys I dont think it should be in the game. I agree advance techs are good, but this is for Melee. Brawl should be a whole new game, I suppose if your really that pro you can learn and develop whole new techniques.
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Advanced Techniques in Brawl
- Thread starter RDK
- Start date
Adi
Smash Lord
Erm, I don't see why you WOULDN'T want the advanced techniques from melee within brawl just because you want there to be new techniques. New techniques can be implemented along with old advanced techniques and still coexist.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
You're right! just like SSBM was completly new and fresh compared to SSB!
Oh wait, SSBM didnt remove any of the existing techniques from SSB aside from a few minor things like platform dropping out of a shield. And the glitch, z cancelling, which actually was a glitch unlike wavedashing was left in melee but nerfed a little because no lag from aerial attacks was very broken, half lag is much better.
As a victim of this phrase being tossed at me 2000 times everytime I make a post like Phoenix im going to tell you something right now.
Phoenix isn't foaming at the mouth. He isn't freaking, and he doesn't have any emotional attachment to this thread or that post because its a FRIGGIN' FORUM. He's meerly arguing against the biggest scrub I've -ever- seen in the brawl section, which is quite a feat. And he did a darn good job of pwning his soul too.
He has no reason to calm down if he was never angry in the first place, he was just calmly dishing out the ownage like I always do.
ToXn
Smash Journeyman
Agreed, but I could care less if wavedashing is in brawl.I dont like how un-realistic it looks. (yes in a game like this =p) But i still would not care.
Zabutur
Smash Apprentice
no concern here if it leaves. I think wavedashing should be removed just to annoy the heck out of people whose lives revolve around it. I'm sure the real pros would just move along and find other ways to rule the Smash universe.
Wow...you guys sure gave Wegus a run for his money. So much for any "revolutionaries" coming around anymore. His hypocritical post about "elitist" groups amused me.
If those techniques "weren't meant to be there" in the first SSB, why did they leave them in Melee? Aside from this, I haven't seen any good posts arguing that...
He has a good point...
If those techniques "weren't meant to be there" in the first SSB, why did they leave them in Melee? Aside from this, I haven't seen any good posts arguing that...
180OP
Smash Journeyman
They left it in because:
a) they saw how these techniques improved the style of gameplay by being polished themselves.
b)they had to officially introduce new things to the sequel.
Wavedash is not a glitch. The devs knew that you can airdodge into the ground at the angles. They easily could have stopped the dash from happening by making the character stop as if hit by an invisible wall if he dodged diagonally. But that would mean broken gameplay. They didn't foresee how this would be implemented by the public.
Now they know.
99.999999998% they will not restrict the dodge at angles towards the ground.
That is what a logical game developer would do, but it just doesn't seem like something Nintendo would do.
I don't know...the folks over there at Nintendo have a way of screwing things up...
I would still cast my vote towards the argument that they're going to do some revamping that will piss a lot of people off.
Lucina Clash
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 162
Wavedashing probably is not coming back, but there's gonna be some new technique to abuse the game physics...
If you're not going to get Brawl just because there is no wavedashing, get over it! Yeesh. The game can still be fun.
If you're not going to get Brawl just because there is no wavedashing, get over it! Yeesh. The game can still be fun.
bluebomber22
Smash Champion
if its in or not people will get over it
bluebomber22
Smash Champion
get over it
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Oooh! good one. Applying what you said about wavedashing to his comment on your inability to type. Fresh, original and cunning!
Of COURSE it'll be fun, thats nintendo's main aim. New levels, new characters, months and months spent making the game, its gotta have a million and one things to do.
Thing is, the competitive side of smash melee really does heavily involve wavedashing where as even if newbies used it, they wouldnt know how to use it properly and since all wavedashing is is moving horizontally forwards or backwards without even being invincible, rolling is still a better idea if you are a newb playing newb opponents.
I see no reason to remove this tech for that reason, it doesn't affect newbies, and it has been proven to be a game changing skill that makes the game faster, and allows the game to be pushed further beyond its limits by increasing the speed at which you can do certain moves to punish a mistake in your opponents playstyle or capitilize on a certain situation.
removing it might please newbies that are like
''I want wavedashing removed. JUST TO PISS OFF PEOPLE''
Wow, really mature.
But keeping it in wont affect the newbie area of play, and it can't hurt the advanced playstyle, infact combining wding with new techs can only make the game harder to master for the people who push smash to it's limits.
Tank McCannon
Smash Journeyman
We should all just totally play Lightning Melee.
But seriously, there's no good reason to take it out, but if they do, meh, oh well.
DippnDots
Feral Youth
I thought this topic died months ago when someone pointed out how Mario wavelanded in the brawl trailer.
Rash
Smash Ace
I can't wait for wavedashing to NOT be in Brawl. It's going to be hilarious watching the vast uproar that occurs here at Smashboards. Seriously, though I'm very mature and not a complete newbie I still get a feeling of pleasure just thinking about what this place will be like after Brawl releases and people learn that they can't wavedash. Everyone's going to be so pissed, and there are going to be so many threads full of anger and dismay. You can't say that it won't be funny.
Of course, I could just be a sick individual. But, whatever.
Of course, I could just be a sick individual. But, whatever.
180OP
Smash Journeyman
I think the same thing. It will be hilarious!
And nobody ever plays lightning melee. It's very bad. They should just remove it. It sucks as a mode.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Yup. Great reason for a valuable technique to be taken out of the sequel. Pissing people off. Just what I talked about in my last post.
can you come up with something better? or is that it?
Reno>
Smash Journeyman
I feel sorry for the position ur in Dylan.Your being completely logical and right ,but its a waste of time trying to convince newbs what works well for a combat game like this,(wavedashing works perfect) when they are stuck on worrying if Nintendo actually wanted it in the game, or their thinking out with the old and in with the new, or if they're just being dismissive, or can't even wave dash...oh well
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Those people should read Formalist philosophy and realize that intention doesnt matter and once something is created, artwork, a video game, etc it becomes a sepperate entity from its creator and is thus independent of the world in which it exists.
But then again they have trouble with spelling/grammar usually so its hopeless.
Yeah, I agree.
You people are -tools- you know who you are. You're bad examples of human life.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
I feel sorry for the position ur in Dylan.Your being completely logical and right ,but its a waste of time trying to convince newbs what works well for a combat game like this,(wavedashing works perfect) when they are stuck on worrying if Nintendo actually wanted it in the game, or their thinking out with the old and in with the new, or if they're just being dismissive, or can't even wave dash...oh well
People just love to complain for no reason at all.I remember when I was a noob and complained about wavedash,L-cancel,etc.But then I tried them and gained an understanding,and with that,some common sense.Why can't those who don't use it just not use it and leave it to the people who want to use it?
It shows the level of maturity people have here,with their"My way or the high way" attitude.
Rash
Smash Ace
Guys, I was joking. Not only did my post very much address/relate to what Dylan had previously said but it also threw in the bit about me being a sick individual (where the sense of sarcasm should have become evident). Although, either way, I find it impossible to disagree that it would be funny if wavedash was out. If you look beyond what the potential loss of the wavedash will be and just think about this community blowing up in rage due to a no-wavedaash announcement, you can't say that the image won't be somewhat humorous. That's the joke. When you don't look at the possible humor of it you're forced to look at the serious side of it, and at that point you're just sending yourself back into "hostile mode."
If you need to know I'm actually one of the one's who wants the wavedash in the game, not just to make everyone in the smash community happy but also because there's just no reason to take it out in the first place, especially when Brawl's engine is based off of the Melee one. I've said that before. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and with Sakurai being rushed so much to get this monumental piece of work done before the end of the year, it's hard to imagine that there have been many real core changes in the Melee engine for Brawl's fighting mechanics. It's logical thinking above anything else.
Still, it's obvious that you guys are really tense about this issue. Some almost unreasonably so. Honestly, I think it's time to lighten up. Some of you are becoming blind because of your paranoia over the wavedash, and anyone who can't see that isn't paying enough attention.
If you need to know I'm actually one of the one's who wants the wavedash in the game, not just to make everyone in the smash community happy but also because there's just no reason to take it out in the first place, especially when Brawl's engine is based off of the Melee one. I've said that before. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and with Sakurai being rushed so much to get this monumental piece of work done before the end of the year, it's hard to imagine that there have been many real core changes in the Melee engine for Brawl's fighting mechanics. It's logical thinking above anything else.
Still, it's obvious that you guys are really tense about this issue. Some almost unreasonably so. Honestly, I think it's time to lighten up. Some of you are becoming blind because of your paranoia over the wavedash, and anyone who can't see that isn't paying enough attention.
Just a thought
To add a bit more of a constructive argument...
Does anyone feel that wavedashing creates a "barrier to entry" of sorts concerning competitive smash play? The sheer difficulty of learning the nuances has probably prevented many-a-smasher from engaging in tournaments etc.
Now most of you will probably say "if they don't practice to learn the tech, then screw em....we don't want them anyway"
Having a technical limit that more democratizes competition might not be a bad thing for the smash community. If the technical difficulty of the game decreases, the need for intangible skills (mind games) become more prevalent.
That can't be all bad right? Anyone remember Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Technically not on par with the highest levels of smash (save for Guile's corner combos), but still a great f'n game...
To add a bit more of a constructive argument...
Does anyone feel that wavedashing creates a "barrier to entry" of sorts concerning competitive smash play? The sheer difficulty of learning the nuances has probably prevented many-a-smasher from engaging in tournaments etc.
Now most of you will probably say "if they don't practice to learn the tech, then screw em....we don't want them anyway"
Having a technical limit that more democratizes competition might not be a bad thing for the smash community. If the technical difficulty of the game decreases, the need for intangible skills (mind games) become more prevalent.
That can't be all bad right? Anyone remember Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Technically not on par with the highest levels of smash (save for Guile's corner combos), but still a great f'n game...
easy...
Wavedashing is certainly easy depending on your char.
Situationally, those characters with a very short wavedash, or those with a very short jump startup, have more difficulty applying wavedashing effectively (for me anyway). As always this depends on the player. The point I was making earlier is simply this:
If wavedashing is taken out of the game, the game will still be incredibly fun and deep....an ancillary benefit of a less technical ceiling for brawl would be the need for a different approach to mind gaminess...none of this is bad, just different.
Wavedashing is certainly easy depending on your char.
Situationally, those characters with a very short wavedash, or those with a very short jump startup, have more difficulty applying wavedashing effectively (for me anyway). As always this depends on the player. The point I was making earlier is simply this:
If wavedashing is taken out of the game, the game will still be incredibly fun and deep....an ancillary benefit of a less technical ceiling for brawl would be the need for a different approach to mind gaminess...none of this is bad, just different.
Pip
Smash Apprentice
I think chester's point has merit. It has always seemed to me that a lot of casual smash players (casual players themselves accounting for the vast majority of all smash players) are drawn to the game because it is different from most more standard fighting games in not seeming to require complicated series of button presses or lightning fast frame perfect fingering. Smash's low to mid-level game is relatively easy for people to pick up compared to that of most fighting games. Doing a move is as simple as pressing a certain direction and pressing one button. Compare that to stuff from fighting games like 376231,A+B (kudos to anyone who recognizes that without looking it up, btw).
The appeal is ease of use. Does the ease of use necessarily make the game less deep than other fighting games' low to mid-level fights? I don't believe so. It simply becomes more of a question of whether you can choose the best move for the situation rather than whether you can execute the best move for the situation. But if you have a situation (like in Smash's high level game) where whether or not you're able to consistently pull of specific fingerings at will can give you a significant advantage or disadvantage, the game becomes less about whether you can out think your opponent.
This creates the "barrier" that chester mentioned, a barrier that keeps many people who otherwise could play very competitively from entering and enriching that whole scene. Why don't these people just learn, you ask? I suspect that for a lot of these people the idea of a game that's about those kinds of skills rather than out thinking your opponent simply doesn't appeal to them.
Now consider that a lot of advanced techniques are becoming more and more widely known and associated with Smash. I suspect that a lot of potential casual smash players hear about things like wavedashing or L-canceling and get turned off to the game. It makes it seem like it offers less in distinction from more standard fighting games. For most people Smash respresents a very unique experience that you can't get anywhere else, and any move towards a more advanced-techniques-centric game is a move away from one of the things that makes Smash unique and appealing for the masses.
So, to summarize my past few paragraphs, the benefits of dropping fingering focused advanced techniques like wavedashing or L-canceling from Brawl are that it would potentially allow more people to enter and enhance the competitive scene, that it would potentially draw more people to the game in general, and that it would make the game more dependent on outsmarting your opponent. Now given, I still don't think it's likely that this would happen given the transition from SSB64 to Melee, but there are merits to the idea of leaving these things out.
I'll leave you with one final thought. There are plenty of games out there that appeal to a small niche of hardcore players, but very few that have the widespread appeal that makes Smash great.
Edit: @psicicle, I also agree with chester on this point.
Removing wavedashing wouldn't remove mindgames from smash, it would merely change the nature of those mindgames. I think a lot of people here have used wavedashing for so long that it's become a little bit of a crutch for them (I mean no offense) in that they have a harder time imagining how the game might be played differently.
Well, I believe that it does decrease the intelligence of play because it is one less option for your opponent, and one less option for you. That means you don't have to think about the possibility: What if he spaces my SHFFL by WDing backwards for an example. It would certainly be different, but smash brothers would be simplified.
Pip
Smash Apprentice
Ah, but I don't agree that simplified mechanics equates to a simplified play experience. Even the simplest of game mechanics can generate vast and intricate levels of complexity in terms of strategic thinking. Look at Go, for example. I think if you were forced to play without wavedashing that you would find that there are many nuances to the mindgames you could play that you didn't consider before, simply because they weren't as relevant when wavedashing was an option.
And, as I argued above, there is some merit in having simpler game mechanics.
Edit: I thought of another way to explain my point. You state that removing wavedashing would be removing an option for you and your opponent, thus limiting the complexity of the play. However, consider the idea that removing that option from your opponent's repertoire can open up new options for you, and vice versa. Think of all of the maneuvers or strategies you wouldn't have used before because wavedashing ensures or almost ensures that they would be punished, but without wavedashing they're back on the table. It's entirely possible that your total number of viable options in any given situation could become more diverse rather than less through the removal of one game element.
That only applies when a tactic is sufficiently powerful to overtake all other tactics. If some super technique was thrown in that made many other things irrelevant, then yes, the technique makes the game more shallow. However, when the technique is used in combination with others and can't dominate the game on its own, then it makes the game deeper.
For you to really have a point, you would need to give examples of techniques that are good in a non-wavedashing match and bad in one that involves wavedashing.
On a different note, on the idea that advanced techniques are a wall to getting new characters into competitive play, it's worth remembering that it is COMPETITIVE PLAY. Competitive play means that you're putting great effort into mastering the game so that you can be a great threat to other highly skilled players. The thing that differentiates Smash from other 4 player games like Mario Kart is that it appeals from everybody on the spectrum from ultra-casual to highly competitive. If you try to design the game so that new people can smoothly walk into the competitive scene, then you have to give it a low skill cap, which will kill competitive play almost entirely.
Lucina Clash
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 162
I didn't make a guarantee, I just mean that wavedashing wasn't meant to exist in Melee, and it was discovered. Just like the Minus World wasn't meant to be in Super Mario Bros. So who knows? Someone may discover some other technique.
Sync99
Smash Journeyman
Wavedashing:
*Allows any character to immediately move forward/backward after blocking
*Allows Fox and Falco to combo
*Allows most characters to space attacks more effectively and faster than by rolling
*Allows some characters to move faster than by dashing
I don't think the game would really be that much different without it, but I also think the game is a lot more fun with these abilities. Take away the shine (no jumping out of it--make it more like smash 64) and you have a reflector that was meant to be a reflector and two characters that can't use waveshining to separate themselves into the Top Tier. It sounds good to me, and I AM a Fox player. Whether it stays or it goes doesn't matter to me, it sometimes seems the better the Fox the less he wavedashes anyway.
*Allows any character to immediately move forward/backward after blocking
*Allows Fox and Falco to combo
*Allows most characters to space attacks more effectively and faster than by rolling
*Allows some characters to move faster than by dashing
I don't think the game would really be that much different without it, but I also think the game is a lot more fun with these abilities. Take away the shine (no jumping out of it--make it more like smash 64) and you have a reflector that was meant to be a reflector and two characters that can't use waveshining to separate themselves into the Top Tier. It sounds good to me, and I AM a Fox player. Whether it stays or it goes doesn't matter to me, it sometimes seems the better the Fox the less he wavedashes anyway.
Pip
Smash Apprentice
Because wavedashing is such a situational move it's hard to appropriately describe all of the specifics of a given situation where wavedashing narrows down the choices you have against your opponent (so much depends on the flow of the battle and other circumstances). The general idea, however, is that wavedashing changes how spacing in Smash works, so certain moves that were safe to use at certain distances are now very risky, so you stop using them. Knowing your opponent can alter that spacing in such a way effectively limits your options. I'm sorry that I'm almost repeating what I said before, but I can't think of a better way to explain it at the moment.
Regardless, my intent is only to point out that a non-wavedashing game of Smash could have potential nuances that don't exist in a wavedashing match, so removing wavedashing doesn't necessarily make the game less complex, merely different.
Ah, but I wasn't talking about a low skill cap in general, I was talking about limiting the relevance of a certain type of skill (quick, precise fingering) on the outcome of a match in order to make a different type of skill (mindgames) more important. The idea isn't to make the bar for competitive play lower, but to make the format under which competitive play exists more generally appealing (which would in turn probably actually raise the top end of play by virtue of more people giving it their all and trying to play their best).
Now personally, I think the ideal situation would be if the advanced techniques were indeed all left in, but with their executions made easier for greater accessibility to the widespread smash populace. Despite my argument above, I also believe, as you do, that there's probably more to be gained, in terms of game play, from having wavedashing as an option in the game than from not having it (my earlier point was just to demonstrate that there might be something gained from dropping it as well, so it wouldn't necessarily be a huge loss). My only real concern is that if they remain the purview of only a slim fraction of all Smash players it will discourage a great many casual players who would otherwise have enjoyed the game, and breed further resentment for what is seen as an elitist class of smash players who use them (Wegus's posts earlier in this thread are an example of this phenomenon).
I believe wavedashing per-se isnt important, i think it is what wavedashing brings to the table what is important... what i mean by this is that the most important part about wavedashing is the movement ability that it gives us, and the awesome mindgames and techniques that come with it.
Wavedashing gave us (through a development known glitch) what should have been in melee all along: a fast, character dependant (in its length and speed) forward and back dashes that we didnt have with just running...
Basically, what im trying to say is that it is VERY IMPORTANT that Brawl keeps a move that works exactly like wavedashing works, even if it isnt wavedashing per-se, or if isnt done the sameway it is done in melee. What i mean is that we need an instant forward dash and back dash move (which is esentially what wding is), but maybe done in a different way than air dodging at a certain angle to the ground.
We all know wavedashing is there for the movement ability and for the mindgames, it doesnt matter if they make wavedashing simpler, because it is all about how you use it,REMEMBER, the important part is to keep the movement ability/flexibility that wavedashing gives us in the game, but wavedashing, as an air dodge into the ground, could leave for all i care.
Wavedashing gave us (through a development known glitch) what should have been in melee all along: a fast, character dependant (in its length and speed) forward and back dashes that we didnt have with just running...
Basically, what im trying to say is that it is VERY IMPORTANT that Brawl keeps a move that works exactly like wavedashing works, even if it isnt wavedashing per-se, or if isnt done the sameway it is done in melee. What i mean is that we need an instant forward dash and back dash move (which is esentially what wding is), but maybe done in a different way than air dodging at a certain angle to the ground.
We all know wavedashing is there for the movement ability and for the mindgames, it doesnt matter if they make wavedashing simpler, because it is all about how you use it,REMEMBER, the important part is to keep the movement ability/flexibility that wavedashing gives us in the game, but wavedashing, as an air dodge into the ground, could leave for all i care.
jordanswiener
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1
Well, since I can't wave dash, I don't really care if it does not exist.........,but when I play people that wave dash, I find that it really does not help their cause....to me it is more showy than really that effective, but I Quess I need to play more people than laijin ay..............
Zabutur
Smash Apprentice
in that case, I want it removed just so nubz like you won't buy the game.
u83r pwn463
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
I could probably 5 stock you. Ssb64, ssbm. Take your pick
Spite, is a great reason to remove a technique, dontcha think?
Oh wait no, you're just being a little child. Wahh I want this removed becuz this guy I dun like wants it in, despite how useful a technique it is. Spite! spite! spite!
sooo spite seems to be the number one reason for wanting the WD removed, from what ive observed so far.
Or as I call it, "Scrub Angst''
Scrubs have tempers man, watch out. Oh wait, don't watch out because scrubs are the earths lowest life form.