Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Doc King]

I'm just wondering, but is this a voting booth or just an idea?

 

[Ripple]

just an idea

 

[Doc King]

Wouldn't the fact that the damage ratio is farther make it harder to combo opponents, cause if you do any attack, then the opponent is going to go farther?

 

[Ripple]

Wouldn't the fact that the damage ratio is farther make it harder to combo opponents, cause if you do any attack, then the opponent is going to go farther?

you can actually combo better with it at 1.1 because of the added "hitstun". and there aren't many true combos in brawl. this actually adds some oddly enough

 

[Doc King]

Wait, so 1.1 damage actually adds hitstun to it?

I might actually like this idea.

 

[bigman40]

Wouldn't the amount of frames to airdodge out of hitstun be the same though?

 

[Ripple]

Wouldn't the amount of frames to airdodge be the same though?

yeah, that's the weird thing about it. you can always cancel int an airdodge so that'swhy it doesn't look like there is more. go back like 8-10 pages and read big O's description of it

 

[Doc King]

thats probably why there's not much combos in Brawl because of the airdodge hitstun cancel.

I probably should test this and see what I think about this idea.

 

[Kewkky]

I don't think you are doing it right.

You set the ratio wrong.

DDD can only CG MK if it's 0.8 or lower.

so..... you like?

(just gonna ignore that D3 part, probably an accident)

Whoops! Sorry about that, yeah, it was an accident on my part. I mixed it up, heh. :embarrass

I dunno about the idea. If you guys can do a tourney and try it out, then tell me what the participants thought of it and give me some results and a video or two of some matches, I'll probably be persuaded if it seems to be a good change. But for now, I don't want my Brawl world to change (in terms of the metagame, only problem is MK anyway), I like it this way.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

you can actually combo better with it at 1.1 because of the added "hitstun". and there aren't many true combos in brawl. this actually adds some oddly enough

It also removes some.

Also about the Lucario side B, it was never a CG to begin with, just mash out like any grab.

Whoops! Sorry about that, yeah, it was an accident on my part. I mixed it up, heh. :embarrass

I dunno about the idea. If you guys can do a tourney and try it out, then tell me what the participants thought of it and give me some results and a video or two of some matches, I'll probably be persuaded if it seems to be a good change. But for now, I don't want my Brawl world to change (in terms of the metagame, only problem is MK anyway), I like it this way.

Not a problem.

Also I'm pretty much on par with how you think of this idea, except I'm leaning a lot more against it.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

So when is someone gunna run a 1.1 SideEvent?

 

[Flutter NiTE]

I am officially hosting a wifi tournament on Friday, the 15th.

Tournament will be up on AiB later today.

 

[Grizzer]

this idea is great, definitely voting HYESZ!

 

[EPsilon933]

Lucario is beast. Combos Ike like crazy. Videos coming soon.

Ren this is the best idea I have heard in a long time.

ComboKing (Ike) vs Zant (Lucario)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN2rqIOmJS8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQzKWwXYbc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8XT2mhGWjs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR3QvntvE1U

ComboKing (Ice Climbers) vs Zant (Lucario)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u81X4Ij2YH0

 

[Pierce7d]

To the BBR members that have come in this thread (That's you Swordgard and Kewwky)

I'm glad to see that like me, you're taking interest. I encourage you to take a proactive interest, instead of merely being passively skeptical. Instead of saying, "If you prove it's good, I'll take a look," step up to the leadership position you're in, and help the community with some objective testing. The results you produce will have greater prestige considering your qualifications, so your assistance on this study would be greatly appreciated.

Of course, that's IF you're interested. Obviously I am not trying to imply that you are obligated to help. This is not (yet) of major concern to the BBR, but it may become such in the future. The idea is growing increasingly popular.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

we do need a IC main to seriously look at this tho

 

[A2ZOMG]

jiggs is NOT midtier. she is just as terrible as before. she still has the same weaknesses as before and will die around 50-60%

I personally thing she's the worst character in this version

LOL at this, what weaknesses does Jiggs even have? In 1.0 her main weakness is pretty much low KO power and Pound not being a safe move on shield (if it were, she'd be like instantly top tier, her zoning is MAD legit), and she can camp the brains out of virtually everyone. Jiggs is a stupid underrated character in 1.0 and like only NinjaLink uses her correctly. If anything she's probably BETTER THAN WARIO in 1.1 since she benefits a LOT MORE than he does from her spacers getting KO buffs and due to various moves comboing better at lower percents (Wario on the other hand probably has combo NERFS due to increased knockback since most of his combos were already designed for low percents). Plus she doesn't get grab release ***** nearly as much as he does.

Dying at 50-60 like doesn't matter if you have some of the best mobility and spacing in the game. v-13 is the best character in BlazBlue:CT despite easily dying in like 2 combos. Seriously dude where is your logic?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

doesnt jiggs have a bad pummel release animation or is that just me

 

[A2ZOMG]

doesnt jiggs have a bad pummel release animation or is that just me

Her air release animation is lousy since it doesn't send her anywhere horizontally, but it's by far much less punishable than Wario's since she's sent higher.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

LOL at this, what weaknesses does Jiggs even have? In 1.0 her main weakness is pretty much low KO power and Pound not being a safe move on shield (if it were, she'd be like instantly top tier), and she can camp the brains out of virtually everyone. Jiggs is a stupid underrated character in 1.0 and like only NinjaLink uses her correctly. If anything she's probably BETTER THAN WARIO in 1.1 since she benefits a LOT MORE than he does from her spacers getting KO buffs and due to various moves comboing better at lower percents (Wario on the other hand probably has combo NERFS due to increased knockback since most of his combos were already designed for low percents). Plus she doesn't get grab release ***** nearly as much as he does.

Dying at 50-60 like doesn't matter if you have some of the best mobility and spacing in the game. v-13 is the best character in BlazBlue:CT despite easily dying in like 2 combos. Seriously dude where is your logic?

V-13 had a ridiculous camping and zoning game with her projectiles spawning where you opponent was.

Jiggs doesn't have the range to pull it off, even less with mistakes getting her closer to death.

 

[A2ZOMG]

V-13 had a ridiculous camping and zoning game with her projectiles spawning where you opponent was.

Jiggs doesn't have the range to pull it off, even less with mistakes getting her closer to death.

Horrible horrible logic. Wario has less range than Jiggs and his mobilty isn't exactly justifiably better than Jiggs's yet everyone complains he's able to camp the brains out of the vast majority of the cast.

Jiggs is PERFECTLY capable camping the vast majority of the cast in 1.0. She's a better spacer than Wario too (B-air is safe on POWERSHIELD for crying out loud). Anyone who claims Jiggs camping game isn't legit needs their eyes checked. Jiggs also has multiple jumps and should there be no LGL good luck trying to ever get her if she decides to plank.

 

[KillLock]

I like this idea.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Horrible horrible logic. Wario has less range than Jiggs and his mobilty isn't exactly justifiably better than Jiggs's yet everyone complains he's able to camp the brains out of the vast majority of the cast.

Jiggs is PERFECTLY capable camping the vast majority of the cast in 1.0. She's a better spacer than Wario too (B-air is safe on POWERSHIELD for crying out loud). Anyone who claims Jiggs camping game isn't legit needs their eyes checked. Jiggs also has multiple jumps and should there be no LGL good luck trying to ever get her if she decides to plank.

Less range but better priority and can actually kill/protect himself. His mobility isn't as good, oh wait he actually can do something on the ground if he lands. Even with this she lacks the raw safety and mix-up potential Wario has.

Wario can actually live and tank stocks while jiggs just dies in half the %.

~

On topic.

I'm still sort of confused at what this is suppose to accomplish.

From what I've seen and played, this lets people kill earlier and die earlier, which really isn't a buff in the sense.

It stops some CGs, Falco and Pikachu go less, and DDD can't CG Marth. Oh and DDD can't infinite a few character. but he still retains the side step so the point is kinda moot.

Tornado is easier to get out on start-up and inside...are people locking them in on the sides like your suppose to keep them in when using tornado?

More combos? Ok some are possible, but remember some things that were either combos or strings before don't work anymore.

So all this effectively did, imo, is help Marth against DDD, stop a few CGs, and let everyone dies earlier. If this is about balance I don't see how moving people around is going to make the game more balanced rather than changing who is on top.

Forgive me if I'm coming off as rude or something, but I'm not seeing how this is going to make the game better.

 

[Ripple]

Horrible horrible logic. Wario has less range than Jiggs and his mobilty isn't exactly justifiably better than Jiggs's yet everyone complains he's able to camp the brains out of the vast majority of the cast.

Jiggs is PERFECTLY capable camping the vast majority of the cast in 1.0. She's a better spacer than Wario too (B-air is safe on POWERSHIELD for crying out loud). Anyone who claims Jiggs camping game isn't legit needs their eyes checked. Jiggs also has multiple jumps and should there be no LGL good luck trying to ever get her if she decides to plank.

if you honestly think that wario's aerial mobility is worse than jiggs', you're out of your mind. and she is not perfectly capable of camping even half the cast. Jiggs' plank game is terrible. marth has a better plank game than her. to plank effectively you need huge disjoints and/or a projectile that allows you to return to stage easily after use. jiggs has neither.

I'm still sort of confused at what this is suppose to accomplish.

From what I've seen and played, this lets people kill earlier and die earlier, which really isn't a buff in the sense.


So all this effectively did, imo, is help Marth against DDD, stop a few CGs, and let everyone dies earlier. If this is about balance I don't see how moving people around is going to make the game more balanced rather than changing who is on top.

Forgive me if I'm coming off as rude or something, but I'm not seeing how this is going to make the game better.

1. everyone dying earlier is actually a buff, but not to the players. it actually helps out TO's with a time restraint. How many tournaments have you been to that lasted until 2-3am? I know I've been to at least 4. with this it will actually allow a tournament to properly finish at least an hour and a half faster.

2. don't take it for face value. even if a couple match ups changed, we are looking at the whole picture. if more characters can put up a fight against MK then great. the game is more balanced, which was our goal. it'd be even better if MK dropped a tier.

 

[_Keno_]

3. there is more hitstun! (or so I've heard)
4. You can SDI out of the nado? (also "so I've heard")

 

[Sharky]

2. don't take it for face value. even if a couple match ups changed, we are looking at the whole picture. if more characters can put up a fight against MK then great. the game is more balanced, which was our goal. it'd be even better if MK dropped a tier.

just. ban. metaknight.

 

[Ripple]

3. there is more hitstun! (or so I've heard)
4. You can SDI out of the nado? (also "so I've heard")

5. not necessarily true

The increased KB leads to more low KB tumble, thus creating a greater frame advantage on certain moves.

6. you can not SDI tornado actually. it just has more KB (not hitstun) so you have a higher possibility of getting knocked out of it.

if hitstun WAS added then you would be able to SDI out, but you can not. since MK tornado only has either 0 or 1 frame(s) of hitstun no SDI is possible

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Her air release animation is lousy since it doesn't send her anywhere horizontally, but it's by far much less punishable than Wario's since she's sent higher.

yea i noticed that, i think DDD can re grab jiggs after a pummel release but the jiggs can get away if they know about it

Horrible horrible logic. Wario has less range than Jiggs and his mobilty isn't exactly justifiably better than Jiggs's yet everyone complains he's able to camp the brains out of the vast majority of the cast.

wario also has the better more reliable killing tools over jiggs. Including his fsmash

 

[A2ZOMG]

Less range but better priority and can actually kill/protect himself. His mobility isn't as good, oh wait he actually can do something on the ground if he lands. Even with this she lacks the raw safety and mix-up potential Wario has.

Wario can actually live and tank stocks while jiggs just dies in half the %.

Better priority? Are you kidding me? Jiggs has better priority than Wario on all aerials except U-air (D-air is arguable, but the difference is too small to justify). Don't make up random things. And Wario has nothing remotely close to how good Pound is for breaking zoning. And Wario's ground game isn't better than Jiggs's. Wario only has a better F-smash. Jiggs has a MUCH better Dash Attack and thus has the advantage whiff punishing on the ground. Both have good grab range and above average damage throws.

And you're overrating how much weight actually matters. Wario at any rate is easier for several characters to kill assuming he gets air released from grab.

if you honestly think that wario's aerial mobility is worse than jiggs', you're out of your mind. and she is not perfectly capable of camping even half the cast. Jiggs' plank game is terrible. marth has a better plank game than her. to plank effectively you need huge disjoints and/or a projectile that allows you to return to stage easily after use. jiggs has neither.

Pound is a huge disjoint and sweetspots the ledge from ******** distances that no character wants to challenge. And my point is Wario's mobility isn't justifiably better than Jiggs's. Anyone who claims Wario can camp and Jiggs can't fails horribly in logic.

 

[Flayl]

Horrible horrible logic. Wario has less range than Jiggs and his mobilty isn't exactly justifiably better than Jiggs's yet everyone complains he's able to camp the brains out of the vast majority of the cast.

Jigglypuff cannot fall fast enough to make the best out of her aerial mobility. Vertically spacing Jigglypuff isn't hard at all compared to Wario.

 

[Ripple]

yea i noticed that, i think DDD can re grab jiggs after a pummel release but the jiggs can get away if they know about it

no he can't, he doesn't get frame advantage

wario also has the better more reliable killing tools over jiggs. Including his fsmash

not relevant to the argument that was made. DK has better kill power than wario. can DK camp his *** off? not really

 

[SuSa]

Jiggs>wario

So why aren't more Jigglypuffs placing as well as Wario?

Oh yeah... because she has horrid range, can't make use of her airgame (IIRC her airdodge is worse than Wario's), her spotdodge is one of the worst in the game, her rolls both suck, her fastfall sucks, she has two highly situational and mostly useless moves (up/down-B), Rollout is arguably just as useless (not hard to see coming)

She dies earlier, even if it's not guarenteed from a grab - she can't even approach Snake, so Snake doesn't need to grab her to utilt.

Wario's waft and uair are also pretty decent kills moves.

As far as zoning goes, Wario's air mobility + ability to fastfall let's him get past zoning. Jigglypuff has to rely on pound, which leaves her open.

Wario has bite

Welcome to Super Theorycraft bros

 

[GimR]

Guys, Guys. Let's not get off topic. This discussion isn't about who's a better planker.

 

[Ripple]

Guys, Guys. Let's not get off topic. This discussion isn't about who's a better planker.

it wasn't even that actually. it was whether or not jiggs can camp effectively or not.

 

[GimR]

it wasn't even that actually. it was whether or not jiggs can camp effectively or not.

you know what I mean though. Let's get back on track before this thread gets closed

 

[Nidtendofreak]

SuSa, other people, you all should have realized this by now.

It is, without exception, 100% pointless to listen to A2. It's not only extreme theorycrafting, it's extremely bad theorycrafting. Figure that out a loooooong time ago. I don't read his posts and I can tell just from what other people are saying it is yet again something completely and utterly worthless. Something about Jigglypuff being better than Wario? LOL, what a joke. Seriously, don't bother responding to him. He'll eventually get the hint.

Fine fine, have it your way.

How well do you think that wifi 1.1 tournament will translate over to actual information about how well 1.1 would work in offline tournaments? Obviously, lag is going to be a factor in it.

 

[Ripple]

you know what I mean though. Let's get back on track before this thread gets closed

give me a subject to test later today and I will

 

[SuSa]

I still don't understand everyones issue with wifi vs irl....

I was 99% a wifi player, only offline experience was tournaments and I was doing well.... *looks at Ally*

I blame him sucking for him having stopped playing WiFi it appears.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I at least have noticed a big difference between offline and online. Something offline that I do I can't even attempt online. :\

 

[Ripple]

3 things I just noticed.

1. susa has been promoted again

2. niddo has his 4000 post

3. no one has said one word about my avatar, custom title and sig combination.

edit: need more text for my signature to show up. oh well just look at my above post