Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

>implying that WiFi is played exactly the same as offline in 1.0

Seriously though, I dunno what the big deal is if 1.1 is a little different on WiFi...

People who play online only play for a few reasons... Either to just have fun, to get comfortable playing against actual people rather than computers, or to get KINDA familiar in a matchup against a particular character. All of which would still be possible if we changed the DR to 1.1.

1.0 wifi is not that different from 1.0 offline.

1.1 is going to have huge huge changes, than what wifi normally offers.

Plus there are places with competitive ladders, All is Brawl, that would have serious problems trying to implement it when offline people would have to relearn everything for wifi.

 

[Ripple]

just want to say that falco is hands down the best character in .9 DR. he can buffer regrab almost every character in the game. he can buffer re grab MK like 5 times in place and continue it until 90%

which is 2x as good. and with knock back turned down by AT MOST 20% that means that falco's chaingrab on MK is 1.8x as good as it was before

oh, and I think its a 0-death

 

[Mota]

Well that solves the whole MK has no disadvantaged MUs

.9DR has my support

 

[Tesh]

Just turn it down to .5 and the game is totally balanced. upthrow combos for all.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just turn it down to .5 and the game is totally balanced. upthrow combos for all.

Ice climbers will probably **** everyone in .5 lol

 

[EPsilon933]

You know what would be super balanced? .5 dr with heavy gravity, giant, and metal. Everything infinites everything and everyone dies at 999% if you're lucky. So balanced.

 

[saviorslegacy]

So I was just testing this some.

It seems like MK becomes the new Wolf.
You see, fast fallers like Sheik and Wolf can now SDI down and shield none grab infinities and some grab infinities don't seem to infinite anymore because it doesn't have enough knockback to make them do that little spin thing.... watch Falco in this vid to get what I mean by spin thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR8wqnnAgUo

So.... here is what I found out:
If Oli grabs MK at very low percents he has a buffered CG until like 60 or 70% which he can possibly end with up B. Very deadly IMO.

Falco gets an amazing d-throw but I bet you that it is escapable at low percents be previous fast fallers and maybe some normal people like MK since it they impact the ground so soon. 1 and 2 frame jabs wanted.

IC's could originally CG Sheik with d-throw until 60%ish... now it is more like 100%ish.
But hey, this is just one match up.... even though it is my main.



So from what I am seeing this will make some match ups worst and other better. The one that I do see getting better is MK. If everyone has very legit ways of locking him this game will allow more characters to progress.
This also allows for new combo's to be exploited. For example, at .9 Sheik can d-throw> u-tilt> grab> d-throw> Uair
Sheik has like no low percent combo's as it is.
Pretty much everyone has combo's out of throws now. So if a character doesn't have a lock they will get legitimate ways to combo up some damage.

Also, as everyone guessed, people die at later. So even though they can get locked or combo'd to ***% they still have that high percent point where there are few to no combo's and it comes down to spacing.


I support this. It will drastically change an unevolving game yes, but wouldn't a new revolutionary tech do the same? Yes, there will be more locks, but in the end 60% of damage is just 60% of damage. Whether you done that with a lock, CG or combo, they still received 60%.



I will bring this to the smash lab. It would be an easy and very fun project to see who gets new infinities, locks and deadly combo's.

 

[Ussi]

if you are testing .9, a fun lock/CG to try out is Ike's bthrow CG, in 1.0 only works on bowser to 30%ish.. Maybe work on more people in .9 :0

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In 1.0, it works to like, 60% IIRC when buffered, and then a Dash Attack after that. >_>

EDIT: Or 45%...it was higher than 30% though.

 

[Ussi]

by 30% they can do something to avoid it

 

[Nidtendofreak]

...Unless you butchered one of your last posts there, I am fairly confused.

Are you claiming that by 30% Bowser can break out in 1.0, or that characters in .9 can break out by 30%? Because I know the first option is false, while the second option may be true.

 

[Ussi]

I think i just realized its 45% and if bowser tries to spot dodge, then it goes to 60%..

whoops, i did the wrong thing to 15%

 

[Ripple]

so 1.1 AND 0.9 have the attention of the SL? weird

 

[Cherry64]

so 1.1 AND 0.9 have the attention of the SL? weird

Your cynicism impresses me

 

[Ussi]

when looking at .9.. think we'd want to use 2 stocks due to how much people can survive a stock? if anything, getting a spike/gimped is a huge boost/nerf to whoever you are.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I don't think that you need less stocks.

.9= more damage
more damage= more knockback

Point made.

 

[Ripple]

I don't think that you need less stocks.

.9= more damage
more damage= more knockback

Point made.

are the smash lab people trolling here now?

 

[Pierce7d]

Savior, that's 1.1 you're talking about.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm still wondering if 1.1 or 0.9 or any different setting other than 1.0 actually balances anything.

If anything, we need to determine everything that these settings change and stack those characteristics up with 1.0 and then determine which of the settings fits the criteria of being more balanced, a criteria we'd have to come up with eventually.

 

[saviorslegacy]

when looking at .9.. think we'd want to use 2 stocks due to how much people can survive a stock? if anything, getting a spike/gimped is a huge boost/nerf to whoever you are.

^^^^this
This is what I was answering... I was just using my phone to reply when I made the last post.

are the smash lab people trolling here now?

No, I am not trolling. This is the second time someone has asked me this today.

I'm still wondering if 1.1 or 0.9 or any different setting other than 1.0 actually balances anything.

If anything, we need to determine everything that these settings change and stack those characteristics up with 1.0 and then determine which of the settings fits the criteria of being more balanced, a criteria we'd have to come up with eventually.

Simple answer, "I don't know."

I am currently working on that very thing.

 

[SuSa]

are the smash lab people trolling here now?

What scares me is that these are being considered to be tested by the SL at all.

We do research on Brawls mechanics and how the game works. Beyond what changes are made by adjusting the Knockback Ratio (which is fairly obviously) we shouldn't be looking into this stuff.

It's not our job to figure out combos and such (if it was, why are we doing such for ratios outside of the already-established norm of 1.0?)

I think spending our time finding a hitstun formula to calculate KO %'s for every move in the game would be a far more useful use of our time. Complex? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. Maybe impossible? Yes. But that'd be one of the most useful things EVER.

:leek:

 

[saviorslegacy]

What scares me is that these are being considered to be tested by the SL at all.

We do research on Brawls mechanics and how the game works. Beyond what changes are made by adjusting the Knockback Ratio (which is fairly obviously) we shouldn't be looking into this stuff.

It's not our job to figure out combos and such (if it was, why are we doing such for ratios outside of the already-established norm of 1.0?)

I think spending our time finding a hitstun formula to calculate KO %'s for every move in the game would be a far more useful use of our time. Complex? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. Maybe impossible? Yes. But that'd be one of the most useful things EVER.

:leek:

I'll try and keep it cut and dry.

People are talking about it.
Data needs to be assorted because we will never blindly switch.
Who better than the SL to assort the data?

 

[SuSa]

I'll try and keep it cut and dry.

People are talking about it.
Data needs to be assorted because we will never blindly switch.
Who better than the SL to assort the data?

Fact.
Obvious fact.
Anyone but us.

You don't see us gathering data for the Brawl Workshop for the use of Brawl-, Balanced Brawl, etc.

While I understand those two examples are a bit more drastic than a knockback ratio change - it should be up to the people interested to do the testing and assort the data. Not the Smash Lab.

A public forum should be created, if enough people show interest, with possibly the largest advocates for the change (Ripple? Yourself? The OP?) being "in charge" of how it's run. (Super moderators watching over it to start, nobody is a mod yet and nobody gets a new usergroup)

I just don't see it as more important over the countless other projects we have open. I say focus finishing what we started instead of topping our sundae off with every topping we can imagine. (Not to say good work isn't being done, but having other projects DOES halt progress)

:leek:

 

[saviorslegacy]

Fact.
Obvious fact.
Anyone but us.

You don't see us gathering data for the Brawl Workshop for the use of Brawl-, Balanced Brawl, etc.

While I understand those two examples are a bit more drastic than a knockback ratio change - it should be up to the people interested to do the testing and assort the data. Not the Smash Lab.

A public forum should be created, if enough people show interest, with possibly the largest advocates for the change (Ripple? Yourself? The OP?) being "in charge" of how it's run. (Super moderators watching over it to start, nobody is a mod yet and nobody gets a new usergroup)

I just don't see it as more important over the countless other projects we have open. I say focus finishing what we started instead of topping our sundae off with every topping we can imagine.

:leek:

Those are hacks, modifications, cheats if you will. This is just as simple as adding a timer to the game or playing MM coin style.

This is an easy and fun project and if the SL do it, then it will be done right.

If a public forum is created for this I would be willing to look after it and make sure things run smoothly and all.

If enough people are interested in this then I think it should be given first priority. Granted, I don't think there are enough people interested to demand attention like that since there aren't rants and stuff. So since things seem to still be pretty mellow, I think it should just be a simple side project.

 

[SuSa]

The change of knockback still changes the physics of the game. Not like something like adding a timer or playing MM coin style does. That changes the objective of the game, not the physics.

I agree it may be easy and fun, but easy and fun doesn't equate to fast and productful. I'd like to refer you to the SL's very goals listed. This falls under them, but in a very underlying and stretched way. (I'd say only figuring out the real physic differences between 1.1 and 1.0 and 0.9 and 1.0 is what falls under our goals)

I'm all for a public forum + public interest, I don't mind if the SL wants to help or gather data, etc. But we should finish the projects already at hand before going into fun side-projects.

[And I hope noone takes this as "we don't do anything"... the SL is very productive and has been working hard on a multitude of projects, I just don't feel we should spend any large amount of time/effort on this in particular; but rather finish things up that effect Brawl regardless of the knockback ratio...]

:leek:

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Granted, if we do this project, it will also encompass the collection of frame advantage on moves in 1.0 and 1.1 (and possibly 0.9) giving is deeper understanding of all three.

 

[SuSa]

Granted, if we do this project, it will also encompass the collection of frame advantage on moves in 1.0 and 1.1 (and possibly 0.9) giving is deeper understanding of all three.

If we can find a relation between the 0.1 changes we could create a formula to calculate frame advantage (which is directly related to hitstun and if we had a working formula for that, coupled with 100% complete frame data we can calculate frame advantage in any knockback ratio for any character) and thus have a deeper understanding of 0.5 -- 2.0 knockback ratios and hitstun.

We don't necessarily need 1.1 and 0.9 to accomplish that deeper understanding. Especially when 1.0 is the only one that truly matters right now. We might want to finish that up before moving onto fun side-projects.

:leek:

 

[Xebenkeck]

you want balance go 2.0, every character has a OHKO, therfore everyone is viable.

 

[EPsilon933]

Yay! A bump! But seriously, 1.1 is so good.

 

[A user name]

And dead...It's too bad...

 

[EPsilon933]

all competitive gamers are sheep

 

[Doc King]

None of them are sheep. They're all humans.

 

[Pierce7d]

all competitive gamers are sheep

. . .

Do you even see your own location and title?

 

[Palpi]

Everything saviorslegacy says is stupid/wrong

 

[Mikachiru]

. . .

Do you even see your own location and title?

Oh, the irony...

 

[saviorslegacy]

Everything saviorslegacy says is stupid/wrong

I am trying to make up my mind on whether you are a troll, a douche bag or that white frothy stuff that forms at the side of your mouth when you work in the sun for to long with no water.
I dunno, you chose.

 

[Luxor]

douche bad

This isn't really helping your case

 

[saviorslegacy]

lol, typo johns

 

[thexsunrosered]

lmao saviorsss

 

[Palpi]

I am trying to make up my mind on whether you are a troll, a douche bag or that white frothy stuff that forms at the side of your mouth when you work in the sun for to long with no water.
I dunno, you chose.

I am not a troll saviors, I just legitimately hate you.