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Active Player Thread: Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in

rathy Aro

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dmt>lazy *** sheik mains?

That was an amazing post. I'm not on Ankoku's list of "established" sheik mains, but dmt covered most of what I would say anyway. I'd emphasize the sheik=opportunist part and the importance of jab and its follow ups (grab, lol at dtilt).
 

BRoomer
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Established Sheik players (Tristan, Light, <3, Scary, dmt... uhh... anyone else?) please summarize for me how you feel Sheik should be played. Include aerial/ground focus, needle/chain/Vanish/transform usage, and of course general playstyle.

Thanks.
I've always played sheik as a defensive character. I try to use my speed to intimidate punishable mistakes. Normally that punishment comes in the form of high damage combo strings instead of big knock back edge guard set ups.

My ground game...
Because of ftilts range and speed that is normally my primary spacing tool, in just about every match up you can pressure sheilds even from in front with ftilt and thats a big thing. While some preach don't use ftilt at low percents I'm a big supporter. while it isn't true ftilt grab works wonder on most of the cast because they simply don't have an answer fast enough. these include characters that can normally trade hit inturupt like snake and charizard. ftilt grab flat out beats the nade/rocksmash interrupts and allows you to continue to combo/string your of your throw.
It's at those ftilt ranges where I like to dash dance to try and force openings for needles dash attacks and tilts. I try to build a list of what they do when I do this through out the game and play off of it and dash dances and empty short hops are a big part of that.
its very rare that I'll just use jab on the ground without some other prior set up even though it is one of my favorite moves. Jab is primarily an interupt tool for me, so that means a high speed OOS punisher, a close range punisher after a successful side step etc.I also use it in place of dsmash in those get off me situations since it is much safer on sheild (when spaced well) and will hit more frequently because of its speed.
Dash attack and grab (boost grabs learn them) are huge. they are flat out too fast for humans to react to at 5 frames so they can be strong mix ups because of their over all range and speed. You can also use both to punish landing right before the hit the ground run in with these moves you will never fail. this is a huge part of air to ground combos. fair to grab bair to dash attack.
Utilt is primarily an anti air for me it beats pretty much everything after that a combo ender for ftilt. at low percents it sets up directly into grabs. don't forget this
Dacus is not a stand alone kill move like MKs dsmash or snakes utilt. PLEASE understand this. you can and will take huge damage for every dacus you do if it is read. its a very high risk move.characters like marth and MK will hit you out of it by acident half the time. It's primary use should be long range punishment and true set ups.
I'm not saying you won't get any kills/damage through random dacus. But against good players that can quickly adapt and change you won't get more that 1 or 2 dacus kills off in the SET.
dtilt is wack and pretty situational. ftilt is better in every way in most cases. you can use it as a low to ground anti are though with decent success.
dsmash save it for jab combos when ever possible. fsmash try it out it actually inst half bad in terms of kill power, properly set up it is very hard to DI out of. it can break shields wreck rolls. pretty high risk but it's good to know what the moves about you won't know until you actually use it. How many people write sheik off as a bad character just through their limited experinces right? Still I use it very very very very sparingly when I'm unsure of where my opponent will land and I don't have needles I op for this a lot of the time for example. On the edge where the frist hit can knock them off stage into the second.

My air game...
Um.. "stomp"? I've been a big fan of back air since day one. bair always hits the opponent opposite the direction you are facing and since her lower leg hit bair becomes a great cross up tool. you can very litterally attack sheilds from infront of a character and end up behind them because of the moves decent sheild stun and amazing "shield push". from there you can prsure sheild freely from behind with ftilt or jabs and link directly into combos if they mess anything up or try to sheild grab you. you can also go imediately into a grab or mix in smash attacks if you've expect spot dodges or rolls right off the bat.
On the other hand if you hit you get links rightinto ftilt at the lower percents which leads to big damage and follow ups on a lot of the cast.
Fair is ****. spaced fair is pretty much unpublishable but is very high reward set up into ftilt combos grabs and edge guards very well. it's also very fast and hits above and eventually below you, the below you part can be huge for you when you need a hit but can fast fall a nair.
NAIR~ nair is a little too hyped IMO but its a great move all around I normally save nair the whole game till we start hitting kill percents then poof jammer I bust it our around those unavoidable kill percents. you can jab into nair so that's big. you can also kill of stage pretty early with a fresh nair though because of it's huge cool down you can lose a lot of altitude for a risky attempt.
uair is crazy under hyped... well prob not. its definitely under used from what I see and hear though. uair is awesome it kills pretty low and can be her lowest percent kill move. because of her amazing vertical movement speed and the speed of uair you can get a lot of uair kills if you try for them. watch out for getting hit out of your second jump though.
I've seen someone using dair SO~ well it is a 10ish frame aerial stall so you can stall out above a lot of ground based anti airs and stuff and punish them... I haven't had much luck with that.

overall her speed lets her flat out beat moves she would normally be able to out prioritize or bait and punish the few moves fast enough to be an aerial threat.

Um...
needles **** I've gone over this so much my love of needles hasn''t deminished a thread. pretty much unpublishable except at close ranges where you can be punished out of sheild with grabs and upBs.

Um.........
UpB is pretty hip recently I've been getting a lot of kills from it. it a grean answer to edge wake ups and attacks from the air, tornado, gulide attacks etc... I try to aim it so that I appear on the edge for minimal punishment right now.

Chain....
I've been forcing myself to use it... I'm shocked at how well it has been working for me. a way to punish edge wake ups for a lot of damage. I can see how with practice you can use it pretty effectively against a lot of the cast.



So yeah... basically when I play it's about safe pokes baiting openings with my speed and punishing those openings again with my speed. I do ocassionally do high risk stuff that puts myself in danager but that is normally bassed around my opponets reactions to other tests and stuff I've been doing the game.
 

BRoomer
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: D

Um... rathy voice your opinions. I also wanna hear what ankoku has to say.
 

Zankoku

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For the most part I was just listing off people that came to mind. I want the opinions of people who have had enough tournament experience to know what works and what doesn't, with actual experience to back it up rather than theorizing an "ideal" style that is driven only by data. If you figure you qualify then go ahead.
 

Judo777

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I dont feel like typing very much but ill give very general concepts.

Sheik likes to play in peoples faces. She is one of the best characters right up in ur opponents face (maybe aside from luigi). Racking damage is what sheik was designed to do so she is top tier before 100% (you can generally get ur opponent to this percent fairly easy but after that its uphill). Juggling is definitely one of her strongest points and maintaining a good juggle can be the difference between victory and defeat.,

Sheik lacks kill power but makes up for it by having IMO the second best gimp game out there (behind MK) There are very few characters that u should not be edgeguarding and or trying to gimp because if u cant killing ur opponent will be much harder.

She is very diverse with a great projectile and all the tricks available to a character glide toss aside.(DACUS, chain, crawl, wall cling)

Other than that yea oppertunist that punishes mistakes but i dont want to say alot. Sry if my input isnt very worthwhile.
 

BRoomer
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every input is worth while. I think diversity is very important for our comunity.
 

stealth3654

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Established Sheik players (Tristan, Light, <3, Scary, dmt... uhh... anyone else?) please summarize for me how you feel Sheik should be played. Include aerial/ground focus, needle/chain/Vanish/transform usage, and of course general playstyle.

Thanks.
I believe Sheik should be on the ground a lot more than she should be in the air. Her aerial mobility isn't that great, so it can be hard spacing your aerials correctly if the opponent moves away/towards you and shields. Sheik's ground game, on the other hand, is very good. She can cover moves like ftilt with jabs or a grab if it gets blocked. If you space ftilt correctly, it is extremely hard for most characters to shield grab you, and they almost always roll away or towards you which you can punish. Up tilt has great priority, but I only use it at low percents. At high percents, if I know I am going to hit with an up tilt, I up smash instead and get the tipper off. This has won me many games.

I think Sheik should always have at least a semi charged needle storm, if not fully charged, all the time. This stops people from power shielding your needles and it will do more damage if it hits. Right now, I only use the chain as a tether, but I can see it being used to chain lock at the ledge if you know your opponent is going to roll or do a regular get up. If they do a regular get up, it will push them off the stage and set up for a chain guard. I hardly use vanish for kills since it's so easy to dodge on reaction, and after a while people will know to block it or dodge it since it has invincibility. People should only transform if their Zelda is at least decent enough to land a killing blow before they take too much damage.

Like everyone has been saying, Sheik is a punisher and an opportunist. She can adapt to any situation, whether it be having to camp or having to be aggressive. Sheiks should learn to DACUS. It is not completely necessary, but it helps a lot for punishing and grab releases. Down smash should be used only in early percents and at high percents where it will kill. Sheik should also grab a lot. It set up for juggling opportunities and, at mid percents, you get a free pummel. The pummel only does 3%, but if you grab five times and pummel once each grab, that's about 15% just from grabbing without the throw. Also, Sheik should be using her down throw and her fthrow the most. Bthrow causes your opponents to have their backs faced you. This allows them to use their bair towards you. So bthrow should only be used if your opponent's bair is decent at best or if Snake has a nade in his hand since bthorw doesn't blow up the nade.
 

BRoomer
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BILLY! billy is definitely very skilled. taking games off sebrik and junk in friendlies. defintely a sheik to be watch if you aren't already.

(stealth=billy)
 

stealth3654

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Lol, you give me too much credit. Seibrik might have been sandbagging against me and I didn't even make it out of pools at Winterfest.
 

Zankoku

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Thanks for all the input so far, I'll eventually be taking what I like from all of you guys and applying them to see what works best.
 

-dMT-

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O and... every Sheik should learn GRUST.. like immediately.

Certain MUs can change drastically just from mastering it - MK being the prime example. Also Lucas...

Lucas is so annoying if played right...
 

rathy Aro

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I have nothing to add. I have very little experience and I'm in a training/experimenting stage right now. I haven't even fully found my own style. I do like a lot of what you guys are saying and its nice to have it all here since we have so few recent vids displaying the different sheik styles. Looking forward to what Light, Tristan, and Scary have to say.
 

-dMT-

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So I did a bunch of sandbagging today lmao. Played horribly in a bunch of friendlies, although I had some good moments.

If any of you wanna check out the vids you can search PAGEBrawl on youtube...thats the account the vids are being uploaded under. The video titles are all weird cuz they havent been named yet though

..
...
.....

Screw it..I;m a nice guy when I wanna be: http://www.youtube.com/user/PAGEbrawl
 

DanGR

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One important thing I'd like to add is that grabs (at least for me) place you directly in control of the match much more-so for Sheik than nearly all of the other characters I've played. (after chaingrabs, of course) The exceptions would probably be Snake, perhaps Luigi... Meta Knight... that's about it. Sheik's options from grabs are straight ridiculous, and I hope by now that every Sheik player has already realized this.

Depending on the character you're fighting, you're just about always going to have something nasty you can do out of a grab- anything from a grab release to a dthrow into a nice string of followup hits. It's just too good to ignore.

With that in mind, in my limited time playing Sheik I've begun to adopt this little style of play:

About 0-50%ish- I'm heavy in grab and needle usage. If I'm able to punish something with ftilt I will, but I won't try to force it. Dthrow->upair->uptilt->ftilt is my favorite little string of hits that sets up about a 50% combo. If they airdodge the upair and fall back to the ground I can just wait a bit before uptilting. After a small string of hits to around 50%ish and I'm done with my prefered followups (potentially leading to about 80, 90, 100%, mind you. <.<) I change phases mentally.

50-100%ish- At this point my attacks are much less likely to string together well, so I play a hit-and-run style, charging needles as I go and making sure to throw them only when I'm certain most of them will hit. It's very reaction-> punishment oriented. Grabs are nice, but don't lead into much of anything beyond about 60% percent on most characters. Dthrow still treats me well against the characters with poor air speed, however. (i.e. Diddy)

100 onwards- I don't worry about killing. If I get a good opening for a boost smash then I'll take a chance, but it's not worth taking a ton of damage over to kill earlier. I prefer to keep b-air and dsmash fresh for KOs, as opposed to using dsmash as a quick gtfo move/punisher past about 70% or so. My needle usage becomes much more sporadic in an attempt to make my opponent feel less comfortable about moving along the ground. I think I've been able to land more tippered upsmashes this way. I'm not sure yet.

I can't find a lot of places to use n-air where I wouldn't rather use a different move. I've used it some for occasional kills and a nice ftilt setup using a weak hit. Other than that I'm hard pressed to find a many uses for it.

I'm no great Sheik by any means.
Just sharing my views.

Edit: I'm still experimenting with advanced chain, vanish, and crouch usage. I don't have a lot to say regarding those as of yet.
 

BRoomer
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well then same to you... can't get in contact with GDX so I may not be able to get a ride.
 

Tristan_win

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I think I'm going to pass on ankoku question since my thoughts about Sheik future is getting modify right now on a bi daily basest and honestly if I tried to wright down what I'm thinking you would all know just by how unwell written it would be that I'm talking out of my *** >_<

So I'll just say this: "Chain > Sheik Ftilt" ...maybe, need moar testing

edit: Oh and on a side note I think it's hysterical when everyone here says sheik game is base around punishment and then go to say you don't need to learn the dacus.
 

BRoomer
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personally I feel ftilt is way over hyped atm. a great move definitely not her best over all.
 

BRoomer
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its really character dependant percent dependant, decay and di depenndant. it does 5 damage fresh.

Its an amazing move, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't server the same purposes early percents and late percents. needles jab bair. they are move that serve their primary focuses the whole stock.
 

iLight

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yeah but once you become accustomed to reading people's DI/learning some character dependant stuff everything gets strung together in such a way that you can gain huge leads in % or get a kill from f-tilt whether it f-tilt ->bair/uair/u-smash not to mention f-tilt->jab gives you huge frame advantages a lot of the time gaining free punishes
 

BRoomer
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true true. I still digging needles over everything atm jab prob next jab->dsmash too good.
 

-dMT-

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Jabs. needles. Ftilt. All great moves all in their own regard. Seriously, why discuss what's better? Are we that bored?

lol Mars watched my vids. Beast mode ftw xD
 

Spelt

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A discussion about which of sheik's taunts is the best would be more entertaining.
 

DanGR

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I know...

Anyone ever been faced with intense planking? If so, how were you able to deal with it? What worked; what definitely didn't?
 

j0s3ph

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I have been planked crazy hard before. I couldn't figure out a good strategy...the mk was staying above needle range and when he ledge planked he was able to punish everything I tried. Maybe I wasjust playing him wrong though
 

DanGR

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I've heard a good idea (And I do something similar to edgeguard MK in dittos.) is to fall down to the ledge as quickly as possible after he grabs it. Then the split second MK gets off, you grab it automatically and you're granted invincibility. Upairs usually prevent an opponent from doing that though... And what you're supposed to do with those invulnerable frames with Sheik, I'm not sure...

I guess you could throw out a quick aerial like b-air or b-reverse a needle cancel into an f-air if you had the time. Then from there you should probably get back on stage to begin some needle pressuring.

But this is mostly theorycraft.
 

-Mars-

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You can use a combination of needles, chain, small step vanish glide, just regular vanish, and using her speed to grab the ledge to combat planking. I would actually probably chain jacket since I would have time in this situation.
 

#HBC | Scary

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I love crouching!!

Anyway, how I feel about Sheik:

I feel that Sheik is meant to be aggressive and in few MUs do you have to camp with needles. Successfully doing movestrings using her tilts (Ftilt primarily) and aerials to rack damage and saving moves such as DACUS, Dsmash, and Nair to kill. If you are trying to land a kill move, and trying too hard to get it, that's when everything can get dicey. Don't feel pressured to kill and only use kill moves. stay unpredictable and play naturally and the kill will come. Most of mine come from my throw game.

I take advantage of her great ground speed to keep loads of pressure up but I'm trying to get into the habit of mixing it up with empty SHs and sometimes shield dashing by someone to keep them thinking. Spacing is absolutely huge and is something I still need to work on. As far as chain goes, I want to use it but I get irritated by it; honestly could someone (Tristan...plz!) post a video of hand/joystick movement?

My favorite part of Sheik's game is her grab game, it truly allows you to see your opponent's DI habits and you can punish accordingly with either a movesting or at high damage, a sweet Usmash. To me, any throw will work for techchashing; you just have to be aware of what your opponent can do and how they may counter.

This may sound silly, I like dash attack a lot, but I use it really, REALLY carefully.

I really don't have much of a use for vanish beside the vanish glide; honestly I don't even use it unless I'm trying to recover. Gliding is ok though.

tl;dr, Run around, use throws, needles and tilts. Everything ends with boost smash!
 

Tristan_win

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I've heard a good idea (And I do something similar to edgeguard MK in dittos.) is to fall down to the ledge as quickly as possible after he grabs it. Then the split second MK gets off, you grab it automatically and you're granted invincibility. Upairs usually prevent an opponent from doing that though... And what you're supposed to do with those invulnerable frames with Sheik, I'm not sure...

I guess you could throw out a quick aerial like b-air or b-reverse a needle cancel into an f-air if you had the time. Then from there you should probably get back on stage to begin some needle pressuring.

But this is mostly theorycraft.
Well from what I've seen so far I think the chain remove meta knight ability to plank if you are close enough which is right outside of uair range. The only problem with the chain though is that if they are over 100% ledge attacks will defeat it. The problem isn't what can sheik do to stop meta knight from planking but more what can sheik do once they are over 100%.

heh, Sheik has a repeating theme, 0-100% sheik is a monster, 100+ Sheik unless with decay ftilt ready she is almost as helpless as everyone else.
 

BRoomer
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jab shines above 100 its really helped my game a lot. combos into itself and other move.
 

Judo777

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Well from what I've seen so far I think the chain remove meta knight ability to plank if you are close enough which is right outside of uair range. The only problem with the chain though is that if they are over 100% ledge attacks will defeat it. The problem isn't what can sheik do to stop meta knight from planking but more what can sheik do once they are over 100%.

heh, Sheik has a repeating theme, 0-100% sheik is a monster, 100+ Sheik unless with decay ftilt ready she is almost as helpless as everyone else.
I always say this lol. When her opponent is below 100% sheik is freaking S tier. Once they break 100 she drops all the way down to D tier lol.

Concerning planking no matter what u do the MK will always have an advantage in this situation but that doesnt mean it cant be stopped with proper prediction. The chain is always a fairly safe attempt as well as what u mentioned before with vanish and vanish glides. right when mk grabs the ledge there are a few frames where he has to stay on so in that time u can drop down and fall right next to the ledge so u grab it when he releases. The only problem with this situation is if MK outright chooses to stay on the ledge he still has invincibility so he can wait for u to drop below him and dair us. Id like to say that there might be way to make so if he doesnt let go we can eventually hit hi with an aerial before he can hit us but idk.

The biggest problem is unless ur gonna use the chain or our safer options going offstage is a huge risk because even if we guess right and hit him we probably arent going to kill him. IF he hits us oh crap thats a stock.
 

Tristan_win

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I always say this lol. When her opponent is below 100% sheik is freaking S tier. Once they break 100 she drops all the way down to D tier lol.
I'm loving your logic especially because if you line up the tier list like so..
S
A
B
C
D

and then cross them out to get the average...
S
A
B
C
D

Ohh ohh what's that, Sheik should be in B tier! Who call that ****?

Edit: Of course this is base on sheik current meta game and not future top level play which then she would be in A tier and thus can rightfully get her title of being in "High tier"
 
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