Active Player Thread: Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in

[#HBC | Scary]

Happy new years! I'm trashed!! GGs lol

 

[<π]

I worked! happy new year.

 

[Judo777]

If I see an MK plank the ledge for 7 minutes refusing to get off, well they exceeded 50 ledge-grabs most likely, and thus that round results in a loss. This is definitely enforced at my tournaments, as well as many others especially on the East Coast. Planking has been a resolved issue since the issuing of the 50 ledge grab rule, which petty much every tourney should include now.

Yes, if you spend a great amount of time, spanning minutes, outright running away from conflict almost as if you were a pacifist, you're asking for a technical loss.

EDIT: Happy New Years everyone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHD54aUDcAw&feature=related

Nah man they still do it plenty. On a side note Dojo actually fought the first game and got 3 stocked.

Comment Under the vid by sethlon "There WAS a ledge grab rule, 50 grabs. Dojo only grabbed the ledge 34 times."

 

[-Mars-]

Judo to be fair to Dojo, I don't see why Falco can be as gay as he wants and shoot lasers and side b all day and as soon as MK does something gay we call foul play.

 

[-dMT-]

At least MK can be hindered by the ledge grab rule. Dojo had to use Smashville's moving platform in this game to maintain his campy style w.o passing 50 ledgegrabs. Falco doesn't need ledgegrabs to play one of the campiest styles in the game.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea like really is Dojo supposed to just sit on the stage and put up with the spam? Hell no.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Honestly, the planking ban is maddd premature, we don't really know if it's broken yet. It's not like it makes you permanently invincible or something.


Realistically, he's not coming off the ledge, he's camping, you gotta approach him eventually.

 

[-dMT-]

Honestly, the planking ban is maddd premature, we don't really know if it's broken yet. It's not like it makes you permanently invincible or something.


Realistically, he's not coming off the ledge, he's camping, you gotta approach him eventually.

It can easily over-centralize the meta-game. Certain characters simply cannot be punished for their planking.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It can easily over-centralize the meta-game. Certain characters simply cannot be punished for their planking.

The thing is, too many place banned prematurely, so we don't have data to back it up, the frame data hasn't even been checked to find out if characters can technically counter it.


Certain characters do horribly against planking, that I agree with, but I also think it's just another bad MU for them then.



I'll agree it's probably an extremely powerful form of camping, and there's a good possibility that it could over-centralize, I just want some proof. At the very least, people using it to **** good players on multiple occasions.

 

[-Mars-]

So planking makes Falco suck....what do we care?

 

[Zankoku]

I'm only interested in banning planking if it becomes popular to a level that it becomes an issue time-wise in running a tournament.

 

[stealth3654]

My opinion is that if we take off the time limit, then plankers won't really have much of an incentive to planking since there is no clock to run out. Then, if they try and plank anyways, the other person can either try and attack safely or just wait it out. For example, Snake can just keep on chucking grenades until the planker makes a mistake and gets hit, with no risk to the Snake's part.

Even with the time limit, matches hardly ever time out unless someone decides to plank.

Anyway, that's just what I think.

 

[adumbrodeus]

My opinion is that if we take off the time limit, then plankers won't really have much of an incentive to planking since there is no clock to run out. Then, if they try and plank anyways, the other person can either try and attack safely or just wait it out. For example, Snake can just keep on chucking grenades until the planker makes a mistake and gets hit, with no risk to the Snake's part.

Even with the time limit, matches hardly ever time out unless someone decides to plank.

Anyway, that's just what I think.

...


Bad BAD idea.


I promise, if we do that, I'll/DMG will/Plank will/Vex will/[extremely defensive player here] will just keep doing it until you finally give in and approach.


There have been a number of cases where people did things like that, that's why we have time limits in the first place, to avoid people getting locked in battles of wills that literally last for days.


Trust me, not a good idea.

 

[-dMT-]

...


Bad BAD idea.


I promise, if we do that, I'll/DMG will/Plank will/Vex will/[extremely defensive player here] will just keep doing it until you finally give in and approach.


There have been a number of cases where people did things like that, that's why we have time limits in the first place, to avoid people getting locked in battles of wills that literally last for days.


Trust me, not a good idea.

QFT.

Spoiler

10truths

 

[rathy Aro]

Overswarm will ABSOLUTELY never approach you. It'll be funny.

Also doesn't DanGR have a tread about the viability of planking against all the characters? Check that before suggesting no one has studied it yet.

 

[thexsunrosered]

So I know for sure that me and Tristan are legit sheiks going to Pound4, but who else is attending? besides armada o.o

 

[Tristan_win]

So I know for sure that me and Tristan are legit sheiks going to Pound4, but who else is attending? besides armada o.o

Well I know Neo going but I doubt he will use his Sheik much.

 

[DanGR]

Overswarm will ABSOLUTELY never approach you. It'll be funny.

Also doesn't DanGR have a tread about the viability of planking against all the characters? Check that before suggesting no one has studied it yet.

Much more-so just for Smashville, and not very in depth. I was hoping more folks would contribute but it seems no one cares enough.

I never touched up on strategies on other stages either. *shrugs* I wouldn't say I've studied it extensively yet.

 

[East]

Hi,

I'll start doing stuff around here again. My Street Fighter 4 hiatus is over.

 

[-dMT-]

Welcome back East. That video thread has missed you so much. Almost as much as the rest of the Sheik boards lol

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Yay! East is back!

 

[stealth3654]

Welcome back East!

b^.^b

 

[Judo777]

Hey now guys I didn't post that vid in hopes of starting a "planking should be banned" or a "falco plays too campy" discussion i posted it merely to demonstrate that we can very easily run away from player and play extremely campy and even plank (thought sheiks not very good at it) with out being DQed. You wouldnt get DQed for running away and needle camping and or just avoiding ur opponent.

 

[-dMT-]

Hey now guys I didn't post that vid in hopes of starting a "planking should be banned" or a "falco plays too campy" discussion i posted it merely to demonstrate that we can very easily run away from player and play extremely campy and even plank (thought sheiks not very good at it) with out being DQed. You wouldnt get DQed for running away and needle camping and or just avoiding ur opponent.

Needle camping no DQ

Outright avoiding opponent and not attacking at all yes DQ, or technical loss (although this rarely happens, but its for those people who may consider getting a stock lead and then simply running away for 7 minutes w.o even attempting to deal damage)

 

[Tristan_win]

Welcome back East, take your shoes off and stay a while ^-^

 

[Judo777]

Needle camping no DQ

Outright avoiding opponent and not attacking at all yes DQ, or technical loss (although this rarely happens, but its for those people who may consider getting a stock lead and then simply running away for 7 minutes w.o even attempting to deal damage)

All dojo did that game was intentionally try to avoid DEHF after he got the percent lead. It just took dojo about 2 mintues to get the percent lead. I seriously dont think sheik is even capable of avoiding your oppoenet as much as dojo did that round. I see people do stalling tricks all the time in tournaments. There is a rob i know that likes to fly to the top of japes and dair repeatedly to try and timeout other people. He has never gotten DQed.

 

[DanGR]

(Before I post, I'll admit that this seems to contradict something I said earlier, but I want to make a point by playing the devil's advocate here.)

Needle camping no DQ

Outright avoiding opponent and not attacking at all yes DQ, or technical loss (although this rarely happens, but its for those people who may consider getting a stock lead and then simply running away for 7 minutes w.o even attempting to deal damage)

What's the difference between running away for 8 minutes... and running away for 8 minutes, throwing a couple needles every 2 minutes or so? As the player doing that, you could argue that you're waiting till you found a safe enough position to throw them. As a wario player doing the same thing, but waiting for an ample opportunity to approach instead, you could argue the same thing- that you're just being patient. That's what it comes down to. Are you going to DQ players for being too patient?

In effect these both can be considered stalling, but having a projectile suddenly makes it okay in this instance in the minds of most TOs. What makes having a projectile less of a time threat? I mean, that's the point of banning "stalling" in the first place, correct?

I say it's just Brawl and all its problems. How to fix this game, I don't know. But it's clear we have to do something different for fear of the worst to come.

 

[rathy Aro]

There is no way to avoid all contact for 8 minutes effectively that isn't already banned. If was one it would immediately be abused and then banned. A general ban on stalling is useless. And if it weren't useless then there's no hope for brawl.

 

[-dMT-]

It all depends on the TO. There's really no effective way to draw the line when it comes to that sort of thing, so anyone doing it runs the risk of being DQ'ed or suffering a technical loss. The closest thing is the 50 grab rule to hinder planking, but overall it's difficult to draw a line for excessive camping and avoiding conflict, cuz the occasional projectile could technically keep one safe from a DQ.

IF you get the feeling your opponent is excessively camping, and feel so strongly about it, record the game at the end of it (most Wiis have the infinite replay hack nowadays) and if you can't, simply make sure you have witnesses around, and simply bring it to the attention of the TO or a staff member. That's all you can really do.

Personally at my tournaments I don't see myself being lenient towards excessively campy players.

 

[rathy Aro]

What if someone just creates a semi good wall and the opponent is too stupid to get through it? How is that the first player's fault? He's not doing anything that makes the game unplayable, his opponent's just an idiot. Planking, IDC, Scrooging, etc should be banned not beatable camping.

 

[-dMT-]

Beatable camping isn't banned. Excessive camping as in, lemme throw a projectile or two every 2 minutes but use my characters speed and mobility to outright avoid any form of conflict other than that for the rest of the game... is banned.

If you put up a good wall and its tough to beat, well more power to ya.

 

[-Mars-]

I fail to see how Falco shooting lasers and side b away when they get close is not stalling, but these TO's want to claim other things are stalling.

I don't know I think DMT if you REALLY DQ'ed somebody for that you would have a big problem on your hands.

 

[Bsrk_]

You can predict Falco's side B and also most characters are able to hit him out of it or at least clash with it_ Falco is not unapproachable let alone a stalling character_ MK with planking is very close to stalling if not stalling in the sense that most characters have no reasonable way to approach r counteract a good MK who is simply planking_ His options outweigh most of the casts alongside being faster and out-prioritizing them_

There just needs to be an official decision enforced by TO's in regards to stalling and what can be regarded as stalling such as excessive planking_ Isn't this why the edge grab count is being incorporated in some tournaments_? It is a good way to ensure that MK's don't abuse an option that is regarded as a very unfair advantage over the rest of the cast_

Camping such as arrows, lasers etc should not be banned because there are ways to work approach and break through them_ Although not always easy, they are still capable of being disrupted/ broken and possible by most of the roster to counteract_

 

[DanGR]

So... how are all of these methods of camping different enough from planking/circle camping for one to be banned, but not the other?

They're all beatable. Difficult, but beatable.

Also, agreed, Mars.

 

[-dMT-]

I fail to see how Falco shooting lasers and side b away when they get close is not stalling, but these TO's want to claim other things are stalling.

I don't know I think DMT if you REALLY DQ'ed somebody for that you would have a big problem on your hands.

I wouldn't DQ for that situation, because as I said before that is simply a form of difficult to beat camping. Falco can be punished for his phantasm, even hit out of it, and his lasers can be shield dashed. Sure this leaves you in a defensive state, and punishing this tactic, if done well by the Falco player, can be difficult, but this in no way constitutes a ban.

This is what I meant by it being difficult to draw the line. Despite my efforts everyone is placing this line at a different level.

What I WOULD give a technical loss to, and DQ upon further violation, would be anything where the player is NOT using a turtle style where he is attacking and applying pressure however campy and safe it may be, but when a player is outright avoiding all conflict with the opponent after getting a stock lead just to run out the timer much to early in the game.

 

[-Mars-]

I wouldn't DQ for that situation, because as I said before that is simply a form of difficult to beat camping. Falco can be punished for his phantasm, even hit out of it, and his lasers can be shield dashed. Sure this leaves you in a defensive state, and punishing this tactic, if done well by the Falco player, can be difficult, but this in no way constitutes a ban.

This is what I meant by it being difficult to draw the line. Despite my efforts everyone is placing this line at a different level.

What I WOULD give a technical loss to, and DQ upon further violation, would be anything where the player is NOT using a turtle style where he is attacking and applying pressure however campy and safe it may be, but when a player is outright avoiding all conflict with the opponent after getting a stock lead just to run out the timer much to early in the game.

I'm not a particularly good debater so bear with me.

Planking IS a form of difficult to beat camping. Like I said before something CAN be done about it, people just DON'T do anything about it and complain that it's stallling, because more than likely if they decided to attempt it they would lose a stock.

This seems more to me such as a VITAL character flaw instead of something being bannable or valid reasons for a disqualification.

For example, Sheik can throw one needle and then pull out the chain underneath a platform and Ganondorf can't do much about it. Now in theory he CAN attempt to do something about it. The fact that he can't do anything about it though is not worthy of a ban.

If MK is planking on the ledge with uairs, characters CAN attempt to do something about it by dropping off stage and attempting to hit MK. The reason players don't is because they would more than likely lose a stock. IMO if your character really can't do much about it(like Falco), that just means the MU is bad for Falco and he isn't equipped to deal with planking, similar to how Ganondorf is incapable of dealing with silly things like Sheik's chain.

Hope that made some form of sense.

 

[-dMT-]

I'm not a particularly good debater so bear with me.

Planking IS a form of difficult to beat camping. Like I said before something CAN be done about it, people just DON'T do anything about it and complain that it's stallling, because more than likely if they decided to attempt it they would lose a stock.

This seems more to me such as a VITAL character flaw instead of something being bannable or valid reasons for a disqualification.

For example, Sheik can throw one needle and then pull out the chain underneath a platform and Ganondorf can't do much about it. Now in theory he CAN attempt to do something about it. The fact that he can't do anything about it though is not worthy of a ban.

If MK is planking on the ledge with uairs, characters CAN attempt to do something about it by dropping off stage and attempting to hit MK. The reason players don't is because they would more than likely lose a stock. IMO if your character really can't do much about it(like Falco), that just means the MU is bad for Falco and he isn't equipped to deal with planking, similar to how Ganondorf is incapable of dealing with silly things like Sheik's chain.

Hope that made some form of sense.

From my understanding, you are referring to the player not camping, but being camped/planked in a way so that the are forced to approach to do damage, but incur none if they refuse to approach the camping player; ie: MK planking and Sheik's chain.

That is indeed a tough one to call, but the player still has to attempt something. Bait an opening, fake out the camping opponent, space well. The camper is, after all, human. No matter how pro the player is, he cannot nullify human error.

In the case he is unable to get past it, it is often a case where there's a large disadvantage in the MU anyway. This makes for a very good reason to change character. It is, however, no excuse to sit idly at the side of the stage and do nothing because the other character is doing some form of close-mid range camping.

S yes, if Sheik pulls the chain on Ganondorf and Ganondorf refuses to approach and somehow knock Sheik out of it, due to his lack of a projectile, he is asking for a DQ.

Similarly, if Falco does not try to do something about the planking MK, the Falco is asking for a ban. It may be very difficult, and theoretically impossible to punish, but that is a character MU issue and thus insisting on fighting the MU and then deciding to refuse to do so while in game is an issue, entirely in the fault of the Falco/Ganondorf player according to your example.


As for planking in general, there is the 50 ledge grab rule that is being enforced. This limits how much MK can plank. Can MK still plank? Yes. Can he disregard how many times he grabbed the edge, which is otherwise a superfluous detail? No.

 

[Judo777]

From my understanding, you are referring to the player not camping, but being camped/planked in a way so that the are forced to approach to do damage, but incur none if they refuse to approach the camping player; ie: MK planking and Sheik's chain.

That is indeed a tough one to call, but the player still has to attempt something. Bait an opening, fake out the camping opponent, space well. The camper is, after all, human. No matter how pro the player is, he cannot nullify human error.

In the case he is unable to get past it, it is often a case where there's a large disadvantage in the MU anyway. This makes for a very good reason to change character. It is, however, no excuse to sit idly at the side of the stage and do nothing because the other character is doing some form of close-mid range camping.

S yes, if Sheik pulls the chain on Ganondorf and Ganondorf refuses to approach and somehow knock Sheik out of it, due to his lack of a projectile, he is asking for a DQ.

Similarly, if Falco does not try to do something about the planking MK, the Falco is asking for a ban. It may be very difficult, and theoretically impossible to punish, but that is a character MU issue and thus insisting on fighting the MU and then deciding to refuse to do so while in game is an issue, entirely in the fault of the Falco/Ganondorf player according to your example.


As for planking in general, there is the 50 ledge grab rule that is being enforced. This limits how much MK can plank. Can MK still plank? Yes. Can he disregard how many times he grabbed the edge, which is otherwise a superfluous detail? No.

Sheik is only barely faster than MK on the ground and in the air. I seriously dont think there is anyway for sheik to avoid her opponent so much that it is unbeatable simply because MK cant even stay completely away without going offstage. Sheik doesnt **** as hard as mk offstage so I seriously dont see how sheik can do anything worth DQing simply because sheik doesnt have anything that is unbeatable. Her airspeed is too low to be able to completely avoid her opponent and even characters who entire strategy is to stay away (like wario) can be beaten so I dont see how sheik could ever do anything ban worthy.

 

[-dMT-]

Sheik is only barely faster than MK on the ground and in the air. I seriously dont think there is anyway for sheik to avoid her opponent so much that it is unbeatable simply because MK cant even stay completely away without going offstage. Sheik doesnt **** as hard as mk offstage so I seriously dont see how sheik can do anything worth DQing simply because sheik doesnt have anything that is unbeatable. Her airspeed is too low to be able to completely avoid her opponent and even characters who entire strategy is to stay away (like wario) can be beaten so I dont see how sheik could ever do anything ban worthy.

OK. Nothing wrong with what you're saying...except I don't see how it relates to your quote of me, or anything I've said...

 

[Judo777]

OK. Nothing wrong with what you're saying...except I don't see how it relates to your quote of me, or anything I've said...

Haha my bad man sometimes i quote just to let people know who i am talking to. I think i used it right this time lol.