Active Player Thread: Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in

[adumbrodeus]

Hey Budget Player, I tried the GCT linked to on the thread and none of the characters were different. The settings just changed to 5 stock and all but the characters were all the same as regular brawl. just felt like there was more hitstun.

I really want to try out B- Sheik.

You need to use the character .pac files, that's where all the changes to the characters are.


The sheik isn't publically released yet, but if you sign up for the forums and ask BPC about it, you should be able to get access.


We need balance testing, and sheik still has a ton of issues imo.

 

[-dMT-]

Just registered.

Yea I'd love to help out in any way I can

 

[Tristan_win]

T_T This is bull ****, I've been on the verge of fall asleep for like 3 hours now so for the last hour I decide to do something really boring...WELL I finished what I had in mind to do and since I'm still awake I guess I'll post it in here... Basically this **** is for figuring out the advantage sheik would have for landing a Ftilt AFTER she completed the basic combo Ftilt into dsmash

Meta knight, damage 25%
Fresh Ftilt +5% damage into fresh Dsmash +13% damage; room for error 12-13 frames
Damage from combo 18%
Meta knight total damage 42%

Best case 0.88 decay meaning only a 7 frame adv room for error 14 frames; Math 1-(0.1+0.02)=0.88

Worst case 0.82 decay meaning only a 6 frame adv room for error 13 frames; Math 1-(0.1+0.08)=0.82

Differnces 1 frame

Meta knight, damage 25%
Fresh Ftilt +5% damage into 0.90 Ftilt +5% damage into Fresh Dsmash +13% damage; room for error 12-13 frames
Damage from combo 23%
Meta knight total damage 48%

Best case 0.85 decay meaning only a 8 frame adv room for error 15 frames; Math 1-(0.1+0.02+0.03)=0.85

Worst case 0.75 decay meaning only a 7 frame adv room for error 14 frames; Math 1-(0.1+0.08+0.07)=0.75

Differnces 1 frame

Meta knight, damage 25%
Fresh Ftilt +5% damage into 0.90 Ftilt +5% damage into 0.81 Ftilt +4% damage into Fresh Dsmash +13%; damage, room for error 12-13 frames
Damage from combo 27%
Meta knight total damage 52%

Best case 0.81 decay meaning only a 8 frame adv room for error 15 frames; Math 1-(0.1+0.02+0.03+0.04)=0.81

Worst case 0.69 decay meaing only a 7 frame adv room for error 14 frame; Math 1-(0.1+0.08+0.07+0.06)=0.69

Differnces 1 frame

Meta knight, damage 25%
Fresh Ftilt +5% damage into 0.90 Ftilt +5% damage into 0.81 Ftilt +4% damage into 0.73 Ftilt +4% damage into Fresh Dsmash +13%; damage, room for error 12-13 frames
Damage from combo 31%
Meta knight total damage 56%

Best cause 0.76 decay meaning only a 9 frame adv room for error 16 frames; Math 1-(0.1+0.02+0.03+0.04+0.05)=0.76

Worst case 0.64 decay meaning only a 7 frame adv room for error 14 frames; Math 1-(0.1+0.08+0.07+0.06+0.05)=0.64

Differnces 2 frame

edit: I check three times, yes doing 4 ftilts into a dsmash gives you the chance of more advantage later for Ftilt then doing only 1-3 ftilts . This can most likely be applied to everyone in the cast so ...if you want the most out of your ftilt combos just do it 4 times and then dsmash if fresh.

 

[<π]

how much damage does utilt do?

its hard to combo ftilt into dsmash an an MK smash DIing up spaming jump/

 

[Tristan_win]

how much damage does utilt do?

its hard to combo ftilt into dsmash an an MK smash DIing up spaming jump/

Strong nair, utilt, dsmash, and side hit usmash all do exactly the same amount of damage fresh, 13%. There should be no problem switching dsmash for utilt.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Umm... the sheik pac is in the mediafire link.

 

[Tristan_win]

You know what's nice? Fairing Snake off stage, following after him to do a 2nd jump raising fair and then following that with a vanish hit only to recover safely.

It's looks really flashy =3

 

[stealth3654]

It looks very flashy, and it's free damage if he lives.

 

[iLight]

here are 2 vids of me from the last hobo =]

Light(sheik) vs Vorgy (snake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnMVJ-1y1sw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxeJcWQj1-E&NR=1

 

[Tristan_win]

I find it fascinating that as time goes on Sheiks in different areas are beginning to more and more mimic each other in how they approach match ups.

Good show light.

 

[-dMT-]

Great use of DACUS as always Light.

 

[rathy Aro]

here are 2 vids of me from the last hobo =]

Light(sheik) vs Vorgy (snake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnMVJ-1y1sw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxeJcWQj1-E&NR=1

Its just what I wanted this christmas. =D

 

[iLight]

Its just what I wanted this christmas. =D

lol i love you rathy

thanks for the compliments guys, now if only xyro would post the other vids i put on his wii i'd be happy and probably be really close to finishing my combo video.

also on a side note i just got a video camera that can plug into the tv so i will be able to record my own videos and finish it in short measure

edit:

also i found this video of me vs broly just a minute ago too =] enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ZrgzCFkfE

double edit:
and also this, which is yet another example of sheik failing in teams, (friendlies before winterfest)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzw5Pm4YU7Y

 

[Zankoku]

Spending too much time in Wifi waiting room leads to silly thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0z6YUwF51U

 

[stealth3654]

Lol, nice.

I wonder why they didn't make the wifi waiting room a playable stage... Probably because it's too much like FD.

 

[-Mars-]

It's legal in Brawl + lol. Sandbag makes for some lulz though.

 

[Tristan_win]

It's legal in Brawl + lol. Sandbag makes for some lulz though.

Sandbag is amazing, allows sheik to control her Ftilt decay very easily.

 

[Gates]

Maybe you should work on throwing more needles and less controllers.

 

[-Mars-]

Who's throwing controllers?

 

[DanGR]

He posted the same thing in the Olimar board's social thread, replacing needles with pikmin. He's probably just trying to increase his post count for whatever reason, lol.

$10 says he's posted a variation in about 5 other threads all over SWF.

edit: @Ankoku- xD

 

[adumbrodeus]

He posted the same thing in the Olimar board's social thread, replacing needles with pikmin. He's probably just trying to increase his post count for whatever reason, lol.

$10 says he's posted a variation in about 5 other threads all over SWF.

edit: @Ankoku- xD

Looks like he did it in literally every social thread, yea, you'd win that bet.

 

[<π]

throw more controllers less tornadoes

 

[j0s3ph]

I just found out that upsmash hits people hanging on the ledge
New edgeguarding strategy?

 

[rathy Aro]

I was reading overswarms thread about being more gay and one part really caught my attention. He suggested that you should camp ppl better than you til you have just a few second left. This leaves you with a slightly better chance of winning because you could get an early lead allowing you to win the game.

Now think about this for characters that **** at early percents like kirby, falco, and most importantly sheik. If sheik could stall til the end of the game then go on the offensive and bring them to 60+ with the typical sheik stuff then she'd get the advantage then the victory once the time runs out. Saviors seems to think that sheik can speed camp, but I'm not sure if she can really keep from conflict for a full 7 minutes.

Any thoughts?

 

[Tristan_win]

I just found out that upsmash hits people hanging on the ledge
New edgeguarding strategy?

It doesn't work on everyone sadly, I remember doing some research on what attacks sheik can use to knock people off the ledge but I lost the file when my computer died U_U

edit: if you want to look into it use this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231480&highlight=hanging+height

I was reading overswarms thread about being more gay and one part really caught my attention. He suggested that you should camp ppl better than you til you have just a few second left. This leaves you with a slightly better chance of winning because you could get an early lead allowing you to win the game.

Now think about this for characters that **** at early percents like kirby, falco, and most importantly sheik. If sheik could stall til the end of the game then go on the offensive and bring them to 60+ with the typical sheik stuff then she'd get the advantage then the victory once the time runs out. Saviors seems to think that sheik can speed camp, but I'm not sure if she can really keep from conflict for a full 7 minutes.

Any thoughts?

Funny enough last night I decide I would start trying to time people out with sheik and even write a little blog (nothing informative like how) about it but afterward when I tried to play some smash my wii decide to no longer read disk.

 

[DanGR]

Looks like he did it in literally every social thread, yea, you'd win that bet.

Figures.

I was reading overswarms thread about being more gay and one part really caught my attention. He suggested that you should camp ppl better than you til you have just a few second left. This leaves you with a slightly better chance of winning because you could get an early lead allowing you to win the game.

Now think about this for characters that **** at early percents like kirby, falco, and most importantly sheik. If sheik could stall til the end of the game then go on the offensive and bring them to 60+ with the typical sheik stuff then she'd get the advantage then the victory once the time runs out. Saviors seems to think that sheik can speed camp, but I'm not sure if she can really keep from conflict for a full 7 minutes.

Any thoughts?

Her air speed is too low. So is her aerial maneuverability. I mean, you can try to jump around Battlefield's platforms, but any character worth timing out probably has the means to mess you up.

I suppose you could try to camp Ganon of all characters, but even he has SOMETHING to deal with it. What are you going to do if you're about to land on a platform and he jumps right underneath you? Land? Sheik probably doesn't have the air speed you'd need to avoid a hit in that situation every time, because that's what you're going to have to do for 8 minutes.

The characters that are good at air camping rarely ever have to commit to anything, and punish opponents that commit to stopping them. That's what makes a good camper great and limits the "campee" to nearly nothing.

You'll have to settle for being the better player.

Oh noes.

 

[Tristan_win]

Figures.


Her air speed is too low. So is her aerial maneuverability. I mean, you can try to jump around Battlefield's platforms, but any character worth timing out probably has the means to mess you up.

I suppose you could try to camp Ganon of all characters, but even he has SOMETHING to deal with it. What are you going to do if you're about to land on a platform and he jumps right underneath you? Land? Sheik probably doesn't have the air speed you'd need to avoid a hit in that situation every time, because that's what you're going to have to do for 8 minutes.

The characters that are good at air camping rarely ever have to commit to anything, and punish opponents that commit to stopping them. That's what makes a good camper great and limits the "campee" to nearly nothing.

You'll have to settle for being the better player.

Oh noes.

I don't think we are talking about doing a Air camping like what meta knight does but more of a mixture of defensive ground and air stalling. Your right Sheik does not have the means to remain safe with platforms for long but she does have great ground speed, punishment options, and resting spacing tools. I feel that if we just remain defensive and only do defensive options until they hit are shield in a way that we punish even if it's only like 7% we could stall people out. Throwing needles can be risky because at mid range they could jump over them, so don't throw them, charge them up and wait. People shooting at you a lot, duck and power shield and wait for them to just about to land before chucking in a needle storm, if they are giving you heavy shield pressure dacus past them to the other side of the stage or run away into jump into chain to reset spacing heck even a vanish can be used for spacing resting. Using platforms will obviously be helpful because it allows a more a variation of moment but it wont define a sheik camping and stall style I feel.

edit: Didn't light make a huge post about stalling with sheik a little while ago? ...Someone necro that.

 

[iLight]

So my thoughts on a potential new metagame for anyone with the mental fortitude to try. I know some people might have a problem with this type of tactic so don't do it if you don't want to, but myself and Dr. Mario Guy, an extremely smart wario main and one of the best players in texas, believe this tactic could work out extremely well.

A little backstory first. So I don't know how well people know this, but not so long ago in the metagame, wario was not considered that good a character, and hold on before everyone assumes that I'm equating sheik to wario. DMG and a couple others thought to themselves for a minute, I can rack up damage pretty well with wario, but I can't seem to finish people off very well, or even approach that well, and by the time I do actually do one of those things, I myself am at kill percent or behind. So he came up with the strategy to just do neither of those things. He would jump around, air dodge, spot dodge, do whatever it took to avoid taking damage and always forcing the other player to approach by making it hard to read where he was going to be. Thus the new wario metagame of floating around and being annoying/running the timer if necessary was born.

Now, what I'm saying is, that why can't sheik do the same thing??

Sheik is a master of low percentage combos, and taking the lead, the only problem is her killing abilities can be hard to perform sometimes, and can get her in a lot of trouble/rack up a lot of damage/deaths on her. So I thought to myself, I bet sheik could be really gay to catch if she wanted to be.

So what if we, as a collective whole/aka. the sheik boards, come up with some strategy of playing keep away and only throwing out punish's when the other person messes up and always making the other person approach.

I believe that one of the main problems sheik mains have is that they go for their punish attacks too quickly, and try to pressure too hard. Say someone is falling down from the air, instead of just flying at them as quickly as possible and trying to catch them by surprise, why not just wait for them, shield whatever attack they throw out, then go for a grab? Also say your fighting a diddy kong or someone that's recovering from off stage, instead of always going out there for some kind of gimp, why not just wait on stage, let them try whatever they want to to get on, then just fair or nair them off again.


These are all just thoughts I've been toying with, but I do believe that if the sheik boards collectively came together and people actually wanted to try, that running away and only punishing mistakes and then backing off again, could be a viable and worthy way to win with sheik, just as it was with wario.

Well as far as match ups go, i've been putting some thought into this the ones it would help with most and probably in this order is

(List may be slightly skewed as i excluded characters i felt that sheik's current metagame would already deal with other than that these are the ones it would work on I believe)

DDD
Luigi
Bowser
DK

ROB(omg if you take his top he's so screwed, can't do **** to you anymore)
if you get his top, all sheik has to do at this point even against a good rob, is just stand there until he starts approaching because all you have to do is p-shield his lasers. Once he approaches, either throw the top up to go and grab or simply charge needles then throw it at him and catch it again. ROB cannot camp you without it. Period

Yoshi
Lucario
Kirby
Diddy Kong(If you take one his bananas and then camp, his game becomes a lot more limited as well)
Toon Link
Link
G&W
ZSS
Peach
Ness
Lucas

I think it could work vs Wario as well, it would just be really ****ing hard

As far as the best stages for this big stages with platforms are your friends, or just lots of platforms so:

Battlefield/Smashville/PS1 if its a neutral, or FD if its appropriate aka fighting against something like ZSS, Toon Link, Ness/Lucas, Link, ROB its way easier to powershield projectiles along the flat surface letting you make sure to never have to move

Other than that appropriate stages can also include:
Luigi's Mansion if its legal
Norfair ^^ ^^
Pictochat
Jungle Japes
Brinstar is not bad either in my opinion

*sheds a single tear* *sigh* i miss corneria, sheik was so good at camping that stage sometimes

Ways to camp effectively:
Well in most of the match up's sheik just straight up runs a significant amount faster than the other character to start

Needles win when thrown at angles from high places

Sheik can dash powershield better than almost any other character because she can travel so far as she does it
I've actually started doing this fun trick of dashing towards someone, power shielding their attack, then pivot grabbing them from behind, its fun

I believe that sheiks jump animations/dashes give her enough control to maneuver around most walls as far as characters go, of course it always matters how good your opponent is and how good you both are at reading each other.

I don't think that spot dodging is really appropriate in this scenario unless they manage to get really close on you because it ties you down to one spot, which takes away sheiks speed advantage and can get you punished.

aerial timing,spacing are key
also grabs will be vital as punishes

In a lot of these scenarios the characters have really good punishes from getting either jabbed or f-tilted and that = damage on sheik, which is not good



I think that in the end the best strategy will be to do a combo of the above tactics until you can knock someone off stage then just ledge guard them by waiting on stage and running away if they actually make it back. Then just trying again, like i said i still need some ideas on the variations on jumping/dashing (its really ****ing hard to get around DDD) I think that a lot of the tactics may be character specific, I'm not sure though, we may still be able to come up with a general good/mostly unpunishable pattern for sheik

the list of characters i think its appropriate for is out dated imo

 

[DanGR]

What you're talking about isn't stalling, per se. It's playing very defensively, campy, and purely punishment oriented- running away to throw needles when you get the chance.

I play that way when I'm mentally up to it and it can work well. xD

It's not really stalling though. Stalling is trying to avoid any and all conflict. The only good way to do that with any character is through the air or under the stage. And that's because when you travel via ground there will always be an obstacle to get past- your opponent. In this game you'll never have enough safe options for getting past the character directly in front of you. ;/

Let's say you want to stall out... Link. Let's suppose you can outcamp him easily and he's definitely going to approach you sometime. You're on one side of the stage; he's on another. He begins to walk towards you, shielding needles and preparing to jab directly afterwards in hopes that you'll boost smash into/past him. This insures that there's at least a decent chance he'll hit you if you boost smash. As Sheik that won't cut it. You've got to do this for 8 minutes, and you can't afford to get hit very often.

He begins to get closer... and closer... what are you going to do? Eventually he'll be right next to you and there will have to be some sort of confrontation. You can't rely on jumping over him, so you'll have to boost smash past him, grab his shield, dash attack... run straight past... or SOMETHING that isn't guaranteed to work. Unless you're Wario or someone with incredible air speed there is no way to safely and reliably get to the other side. There are just so many more movement options going by air, which is why the air camping works when you've got the speed.

Well, that's my take.

edit: That didn't come out as clearly as it was in my head.

 

[-dMT-]

Saviors seems to think that sheik can speed camp, but I'm not sure if she can really keep from conflict for a full 7 minutes.

Any thoughts?

Nice way to get a technical loss from stalling. Avoiding conflict outright for even half of 7 minutes earns a loss, and with further persistence, a DQ.

What we can take from this is, Sheik can play a very campy game and use needles to not avoid conflict overall and once both players are at last stock, get them to very high % quickly (not hard for Sheik), and avoid conflict for what seems to be the last minute or so, with maybe a few instances of needles just to be safe from any sour people who wanna bring up a stall complaint.

Sheik is one of those characters that can time out win consistently the way I see it.

 

[Judo777]

Nice way to get a technical loss from stalling. Avoiding conflict outright for even half of 7 minutes earns a loss, and with further persistence, a DQ.

What we can take from this is, Sheik can play a very campy game and use needles to not avoid conflict overall and once both players are at last stock, get them to very high % quickly (not hard for Sheik), and avoid conflict for what seems to be the last minute or so, with maybe a few instances of needles just to be safe from any sour people who wanna bring up a stall complaint.

Sheik is one of those characters that can time out win consistently the way I see it.

You should see a gay MK plank for 7 and a half minutes then tell them they are stalling. I see avoiding all conflict all the time in tourneys its not considered stalling. Stalling requires u to avoid conflict in a manner that makes the game unplayable or in a sense you cannot get them! Us running away for 7 minutes wouldnt be stalling.

 

[-Mars-]

MK planking isn't making the game unplayable imo since you CAN do something about it......people just choose not to because it's incredibly unsafe. Luckily for Sheik we can just drop the chain over the ledge lmao.

 

[Zankoku]

If you're in range to hit someone on the ledge with chain, you're in range to get hit by an invincible ledge getup attack.

 

[rathy Aro]

Fullhop needles?

 

[Tristan_win]

If you're in range to hit someone on the ledge with chain, you're in range to get hit by an invincible ledge getup attack.

All ledge attacks below 100% can be stop by the chain.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sheik for high tier,

Happy new year everyone.

 

[-dMT-]

You should see a gay MK plank for 7 and a half minutes then tell them they are stalling. I see avoiding all conflict all the time in tourneys its not considered stalling. Stalling requires u to avoid conflict in a manner that makes the game unplayable or in a sense you cannot get them! Us running away for 7 minutes wouldnt be stalling.

If I see an MK plank the ledge for 7 minutes refusing to get off, well they exceeded 50 ledge-grabs most likely, and thus that round results in a loss. This is definitely enforced at my tournaments, as well as many others especially on the East Coast. Planking has been a resolved issue since the issuing of the 50 ledge grab rule, which petty much every tourney should include now.

Yes, if you spend a great amount of time, spanning minutes, outright running away from conflict almost as if you were a pacifist, you're asking for a technical loss.

EDIT: Happy New Years everyone!

 

[Chuee]

Happy New Year Sheik boards.

 

[iLight]

happy new year i'm so drunk lol, cops busted our party

 

[rathy Aro]

If I see an MK plank the ledge for 7 minutes refusing to get off, well they exceeded 50 ledge-grabs most likely, and thus that round results in a loss. This is definitely enforced at my tournaments, as well as many others especially on the East Coast. Planking has been a resolved issue since the issuing of the 50 ledge grab rule, which petty much every tourney should include now.

Yes, if you spend a great amount of time, spanning minutes, outright running away from conflict almost as if you were a pacifist, you're asking for a technical loss.

EDIT: Happy New Years everyone!

With Mk's stong defensive options and air camping, he can still stall you out without going over the ledge grab limit. No one ever gets banned for general stalling.

Lmao, Light. I like how your first thought when you got home was to post on the sheik boards. <3 XD

Happy new years sheik boards. Can we please **** this year? Thanks. =P