Active Player Thread: Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Speak of the devil... I just got 3 stocked by a lvl 9 DK

 

[Dnyce]

You have a guaranteed hit on DK if he utilts you shielding on a platform... but omgoodness Judo, yeah. Upsmash is ridiculous, haha. Mashing jump is your best bet for avoiding ledge-slip shenanigans.

Speaking of which, does Sheik have any type of jab-lock or whatever? I was at a smashfest last night and I ftilt-nair'd someone and the nair slid them across the platform and they went into ledge slip. I might have just gotten lucky, but it happened maybe 2-3 times... and I didn't know how to get the most out of it.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think she has any real jab lock, but if you have a full needle storm charged already, using that and then immediately throwing another single needle qualifies as a forced standing wakeup.

 

[-Mars-]

Cant she bair fatties for a psuedo jab-lock?

 

[Zankoku]

Oh yeah, there's that silly bair lock, though I think it requires use of a platform.

 

[iLight]

well it requires them to not tech when they are going to land on their back our 'jab' lock is with weak hit bit bair->full needle storm->single needle

 

[phi1ny3]

iirc you can continue it indefinitely with weak hit bair/nair:
http://www.youtube.com/user/innocentroads#p/u/43/pSI_7lHgCLs

until they get to the ledge obv.

 

[Dnyce]

Finally can control Sheik enough to platform cancel... I'm so easily amused, lmao.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, sheik's plat canceling is pretty good, it's one of the fastest and you got a lot of cool options.

Shame that not a lot of sheik's use SV just because the stage's general dynamics are pretty meh for sheik, although I like it sometimes because that plat has saved me several times while recovering.

 

[-Mars-]

What's wrong with SV for Sheik? I've heard a lot of Sheik players mention this over the years so i'm just curious.

 

[Judo777]

I can do a writeup later for DK.

Also single needle forces an auto-standup just like full needles. I have gotten several kills from knocking someone off a plat, tossing a single needle then usmashing them on stand up.

 

[sheikamaru]

dk is free. keep that in mind.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

So like... Sheik Boards have the 6th lease posts of all the character boards. =[

are the only ones with less than us =[

 

[<π]

zelda link and Gdorf have more... cuz people don't know we have a triforce piece...

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Sheik's the triangle in the middle. The one everyone looks over because its a negative shape =[

But Thats why Sheik's the best triforce character, we stand out.

 

[<π]

hahaha

so... why is fsmash so good? I've been using spaced fsmash and reaping decent rewards. espeacially versus get ups.

 

[iLight]

yeah but if they block it you can get punished super hard

 

[phi1ny3]

That's what makes it situational. I love doing catching whiffs like when you fair just outside of their grab range, I'll like walk a little away from their whiff and then hit them back with fsmash sometimes.

 

[<π]

if you space it really well you don't get punished all that hard actually... you get punished harder for blocked usmash just for something to compare with.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

U-smash on Shield can be punished with running u-smash.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think enough Sheiks are exploring their shield pressure options.
Imagine how much you can accomplish just by standing there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGfiDJnhBjY

 

[<π]

anokoku sometimes... I love you.

 

[Dnyce]

I don't think enough Sheiks are exploring their shield pressure options.
Imagine how much you can accomplish just by standing there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGfiDJnhBjY

I was actually thinking about shield pressuring options with Sheik a few days ago, since the frame data largely says that it's a bad idea (most moves have quick start-up and lots of cool-down). From experimenting in play I determined that I benefited from going for a lot of grabs, but that's only at the low-end of play that I'm currently at, haha. I was actually going to be testing things like shield stun next when I had the chance, since no one (other than Ankoku) has made a request for things they wanted to see.

Edit:
Utilt also seemed to work well in getting people to drop their shields early

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Short Hop Dair.

Works every time

I murk every line~

 

[phi1ny3]

SH rising retreating fair is deceptively safe, idk why I haven't been using it more.

Also I finally got down pivot needles, it's really cool because they drop shield thinking you're running away, then bam! Needles to the face

 

[Judo777]

SH rising retreating fair is deceptively safe, idk why I haven't been using it more.

Also I finally got down pivot needles, it's really cool because they drop shield thinking you're running away, then bam! Needles to the face

haha i never thought of that. I'll try it out.

Also going to a tourney tomorrow, we'll see how i do it will be tough.

 

[<π]

sheik's moves don't have hardly any cool down... spaced ftilt is great sheild pressure

spaced fair and bair arec safe on pretty much everyone in the game.

fair-> jab and bair(stomp)->jab espeacially are great sheild pressure against people with slow grabs. stomped bair -> jab works on everyone that doesn't have steallar upB or Usmashes and beats just about every sheild drop opion.

 

[Dnyce]

sheik's moves don't have hardly any cool down...

*confused*

... did I mess up somewhere? @.@

haha i never thought of that. I'll try it out.

Also going to a tourney tomorrow, we'll see how i do it will be tough.

Good Luck! Get some matches recorded ;o;o;o

I'll be at one tomorrow too, but mostly Olimar... been playing Sheik so much my money winner got hella rusty, kinda sucks =/

 

[-Ominous-]

Hey Sheik boards, after doing a lot of friendlies at my friends house, I decided that I'll be using Sheik in tournaments along with my G&W. Just for the matchups that my G&W doesn't like. I don't think many people know the Sheik matchup here in Arizona, so I'll have an advantage for a little while with her.

My next tournament isn't till next month though, unless one comes up between now and then.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Good Luck tomorrow (today) Judo

 

[phi1ny3]

yeah, gl Judo.

I just saw how much I need to do to work with this character, she's pretty hard to use against someone like a good MK

 

[<π]

*confused*

... did I mess up somewhere? @.@

sheik has the fastest over all move-set in the game. faster than MK.

her moves have both very low start up and very low cooldowns; ftilit dtilt fair being the biggest examples. by comparison even her smash attacks are low lag all lasting less than 1 second total.

Off the top of my head I can think only dair lasts longer than 1 second, most of her moves are under 40 frames total

ftilt is like 20? 25 frames?

 

[Zankoku]

Uh, just so I'm being certain...

You're using attack durations as a measure of speed? And you know that the only attacks MK has that have more than a second in duration are things like Mach Tornado, right? A lot of his things have comparable startup (his ftilt hits on frame 3, dash attack on frame 5), as well.

I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself lol. Sheik certainly is quick, but I think her strength over Meta Knight in moveset is how they flow together rather than strict speed, which I'm pretty sure she's outclassed in.

 

[iLight]

transcendent hit boxes too good

 

[<π]

yeah thats because of her really low cool downs. I just said MK, he has really good start up speeds, but his cool downs aren't what make linking hard either.

speed wise they are probably pretty similar. it doesn't really mater though since MK beats sheik so much in range any way. MK's moveset is definitely superious over all, but sheik is less lag.

my point was she can apply good sheild pressure and she doesn't have high cool downs even when compared character people concider broken, like MK, she still has great options on sheild.

 

[Dnyce]

sheik has the fastest over all move-set in the game. faster than MK.

her moves have both very low start up and very low cooldowns; ftilit dtilt fair being the biggest examples. by comparison even her smash attacks are low lag all lasting less than 1 second total.

Off the top of my head I can think only dair lasts longer than 1 second, most of her moves are under 40 frames total

ftilt is like 20? 25 frames?

Aside from utilt, dsmash, down/neutral special... all of Ganon's moves last less than 1 second. By the transitive logic, all of Ganon's moves are low lag and comparable to Metaknight, lol. I hope this is enough to persuade you into seeing what is wrong with your argument. So there's no "off the top of me head" next time, here is my free-time project I've been working on( http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301721 ).

I can agree with you saying all of her moves have low start-up, I was surprised myself when I got it; however, it would be kinda foolish to say her moves have low cool down as well =/

Edit: Dair is actually Sheik's quickest ending aerial, beating fair by 1 frame - it's about half as long as you estimated.

EDIT2:

speed wise they are probably pretty similar. it doesn't really mater though since MK beats sheik so much in range any way. MK's moveset is definitely superior over all, but sheik is less lag.

my point was she can apply good shield pressure and she doesn't have high cool downs even when compared character people consider broken, like MK, she still has great options on sheild.

Sheik only outshines mk in fair and bair. Everything else MK has advantage on Sheik frame-wise (some moves even as much as 20+ frames).

I'll use your example of ftilt being good though. In terms of shield pressure, the window for punishing Sheik's ftilt on shield is 13 (if jump canceled) and 7 (with standard shield drop). Most grabs come out on frame 6 and a LOT of aerials come out before frame 14. I'm obviously generalizing a lot, I'm not trying to say Sheik is incapable of shield pressuring... more so that it's not the greatest game-plan to think she can do it well (imo). I just happen to live near a Pikachu main and IC main, and I'm bad with Sheik... so I'm probably discounting her abilities a bit, lol.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Yooo Judo good job getting 5th and Beating Krystedez and the tourny.

Any vids?

 

[<π]

Are these values accounting for shield stun?

Because of sheik's range she can tilt a sheild an not be realistically punished for it. I can't think of many characters out side of wario and jiggs who are going to jump out of sheild and have the mobility and range to punish with an aerial, yet alone with one on reaction. maybe wolf?
D3 can't grab a spaced ftilt on shield, that said you can understand how difficult it is with shield drop options.

one thing that I know does well are upBs OOS like MK's Bowser's and Marth's being the big ones.

@ dair being faster than fair:
?

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, she's all about moving in and out of the opponent's zones to catch whiffs, it's just that her moves have just enough speed in cooldown to trick the opponent into thinking his punish is easier than it is half the time. I'm just glad she has some good oos so that she doesn't have to always run away, and can actually buff out a lot of whatever the opponent does on her shield.

Also spacing stuff like ftilt on shield sometimes compensates for lack of safety, unless they're DDD then everything's pretty much out of the picture .

 

[choknater]

dayum light

i approve of ur vid in best vids of each character thread