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Act 3 Clear!!: Sonic Tournament Results & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Espy Rose
- Start date
Life
Smash Hero
What lesson have you learned from this, KID?
Da1AndOnlySonic
Smash Journeyman
I think he's referring to the fact that I would have beaten Junebug if I didn't SD. I haven't played enough lucarios (or enough of a lucario) to safely say whether it is better or worse than MK or ICs though.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
ps. I watched espys last set with trela and dude is straight traumatised. he plays so scared against him now. hes just shook.
Kinzer
Mammy
No fear, Espy.
NAKAT
Smash Champion
Can someone explain to me why Wolf ***** Sonic or give me a video?
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
Nakat mah boy, smart wolves **** any sonic who doesn't know the matchup. I got 2-1'd by Yes!'s wolf in a mm in november and KID lost to seagull 2-0 at pound despite, I believe, saying that sonic >>>>Wolf.
If you want to know more specifics, hit me up on aim, or Yes! if you want to know it from wolf's viewpoint. He's way better at the matchup on the wolf side than I am on the sonic side.
If you want to know more specifics, hit me up on aim, or Yes! if you want to know it from wolf's viewpoint. He's way better at the matchup on the wolf side than I am on the sonic side.
Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
You can't really do good against anyone who can actually play keep up with you in movement. It's the reason why I think Wolf and Wario beat Sonic so much harder than others say.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
1.ill just tell you what I tell everyone else, just take what they give you.
2. i really didnt know he was there. If i did, and knew you were going to make such a stink about it, I would ahve done it for 20 bucks.
I cant give you a vid that shows why wolf ***** sonic.
I CAN however, show you a vid that shows why seagull THINKS wolf ***** sonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEAp5qOG-xs
i played mad bad.
you had some very key oppurtunities for game changing punishes because you stayed in shield when you should have acted.
i.e. you had chances but you got scared. regardless if you think im making too big of a deal about it, that still means that on some level, you do agree with me.
One thing I did notice majorly was how I was trying too hard to bait the fsmash, since Sonic can fsmash Lucario's fsmash if you space it perfectly.
Meh, I'll just do better next time.
And no, I don't agree. I felt like I played too reckless and aggro in those matches.
I have to play a more swift type of aggro, methinks.
Meh, I'll just do better next time.
And no, I don't agree. I felt like I played too reckless and aggro in those matches.
I have to play a more swift type of aggro, methinks.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
oh you def. did your fair share of running head first into a face full of aura too.
also, why dont you up air lucarios down air out of shield?
also, why dont you up air lucarios down air out of shield?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
there were a few.
whenever i fight lucario, i basically just put myself right underneath them as often as i possibly can. because when you get in that position, lucarios cant resist that urge to dair anything below them. and since they usually think its safe, it turns one of their biggest strengths into a pretty big liability. which is crucial for a matchup like this.
whenever i fight lucario, i basically just put myself right underneath them as often as i possibly can. because when you get in that position, lucarios cant resist that urge to dair anything below them. and since they usually think its safe, it turns one of their biggest strengths into a pretty big liability. which is crucial for a matchup like this.
And if the Lucario knows that you want this to happen?
I've discussed the match up with Trela several times, KID. He KNOWS that you want to be below him so you can punish the dair.
1) What if they stop doing it? Or even worse, what happens when they start mixing it up rather than reacting like the dair'ing robot you assume them to be?
2) That still doesn't solve the main problem in the match up: KO'ing, aura, and his range.
I've discussed the match up with Trela several times, KID. He KNOWS that you want to be below him so you can punish the dair.
1) What if they stop doing it? Or even worse, what happens when they start mixing it up rather than reacting like the dair'ing robot you assume them to be?
2) That still doesn't solve the main problem in the match up: KO'ing, aura, and his range.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
1. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12458176#post12458176
2. I think you need to put him offstage more anyway.
2. I think you need to put him offstage more anyway.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
this is assuming you put him off stage in a manner than just his double jump alone wont get him back to the stage.
bair to beat fair, since hell probably fair to beat all our other gimp options and spam ledge invincibility so doesnt knock you off of it. and from there its just punishing his up b.
lucario is hella limited offstage if he doesnt the option to grab the ledge with his no hitbox up b.
wowow fk thiZ translation bull shiz
I TAKKE BACCKK EVERI/ANI + THANG I EVA SAID ABOUT BIONIC. SUCK MAH BALLZ
TUU LAZT SENTANCES ARE EDETEDD BY ME SO I DONNT GETT EDETEDD BY THE SISTEM
FK THE SYSTEM
bair to beat fair, since hell probably fair to beat all our other gimp options and spam ledge invincibility so doesnt knock you off of it. and from there its just punishing his up b.
lucario is hella limited offstage if he doesnt the option to grab the ledge with his no hitbox up b.
wowow fk thiZ translation bull shiz
I TAKKE BACCKK EVERI/ANI + THANG I EVA SAID ABOUT BIONIC. SUCK MAH BALLZ
TUU LAZT SENTANCES ARE EDETEDD BY ME SO I DONNT GETT EDETEDD BY THE SISTEM
FK THE SYSTEM
MeekSpeedy
Smash Ace
It's kinda hard to theorize a match up. It's easy to see that Lucario does run over Sonic. It's not unwinable, but it's rough.
Everytime I fight Lucario, it's the same thing every set. Basically, I get the 1st kill, and I run away. I don't hit him at all, because if I hit him, he'll get kill power. I just need to get the 1st kill, and then drain as much time as possible.
But everybody runs things different, that's just my opinion on how I play the match up. You can't really theorize positioning and what they're going to do, because yeah, at higher levels of play, Lucario isn't going to try and dair like he's landing an airplane. He's going to mix it up, get creative, and it'll be hard punishing a landing. Platforms seem really helpful in the match up, but idk, it's still a really rough match up, even if you have a lot of experience with it.
But nobody listens to me, so disregard this pls.
Everytime I fight Lucario, it's the same thing every set. Basically, I get the 1st kill, and I run away. I don't hit him at all, because if I hit him, he'll get kill power. I just need to get the 1st kill, and then drain as much time as possible.
But everybody runs things different, that's just my opinion on how I play the match up. You can't really theorize positioning and what they're going to do, because yeah, at higher levels of play, Lucario isn't going to try and dair like he's landing an airplane. He's going to mix it up, get creative, and it'll be hard punishing a landing. Platforms seem really helpful in the match up, but idk, it's still a really rough match up, even if you have a lot of experience with it.
But nobody listens to me, so disregard this pls.
Smashburg Lane 2
4/2/11
15 Entrants
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12479341#post12479341
2: BSP (Sonic/Falco)
7: L!tespeedbrawler (aka brawlman1000) (Sonic)
I had fun at this tournament, and my only complaint is that I lost to hyro so badly. I need to learn vs. Toon Link with Sonic soon.
I think Brawlman's sonic is better than mine, or, at least, it knows MUs much better. He took some games off hyro in friendlies, so I know it's possible, and I have some improving to do.
Oh yeah, screw falco for me atm. I'm going to try to go Sonic from now on. When people see a top tier owning, they're like, "cool", but when they see Sonic open a can of whoopass, it's like "OMG SONIC CAN DO THAT?!?"
4/2/11
15 Entrants
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12479341#post12479341
2: BSP (Sonic/Falco)
7: L!tespeedbrawler (aka brawlman1000) (Sonic)
I had fun at this tournament, and my only complaint is that I lost to hyro so badly. I need to learn vs. Toon Link with Sonic soon.
I think Brawlman's sonic is better than mine, or, at least, it knows MUs much better. He took some games off hyro in friendlies, so I know it's possible, and I have some improving to do.
Oh yeah, screw falco for me atm. I'm going to try to go Sonic from now on. When people see a top tier owning, they're like, "cool", but when they see Sonic open a can of whoopass, it's like "OMG SONIC CAN DO THAT?!?"
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
theres not enough room around here for 2 falco secondaries anyway.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
*Three falco secondaries.
Life
Smash Hero
We need more Marth secondaries. Marth has advantage on Lucario, Falco, and (IIRC) goes even with Wario--the two characters complement each other well.
Life
Smash Hero
And everybody else. But bar MK because he's everybody's best secondary, and best main too.
Trent
Smash Champion
According to the BBR Match up chart, he goes even with Falco.
DUH.
Browny
Smash Hater
At first I was gonna come here and explain why secondarying any other character than MK for the sole purpose of winning is dumb, but then I see
Assuming you will ever force a lucario to use his upb to force a KO is the quickest way to lose. Sonic has no moves fast enough or which send at the right angle which arent easy to DI up.
That said, dair semi spike is still a legit KO option vs most of the cast, lucario included. Trade a hit with his aerials if you ever get the chance offstage, single most legit kill set-up in this matchup imo (implying, you have 0 kill set ups normally)
Looks like you guys know whats up
Assuming you will ever force a lucario to use his upb to force a KO is the quickest way to lose. Sonic has no moves fast enough or which send at the right angle which arent easy to DI up.
That said, dair semi spike is still a legit KO option vs most of the cast, lucario included. Trade a hit with his aerials if you ever get the chance offstage, single most legit kill set-up in this matchup imo (implying, you have 0 kill set ups normally)
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I have a ton of Lucario experience. The most I can say is...play the match-up like you have nothing to lose. It's already a garbage match-up, may as well get gutsy.
But seriously, you should try to find openings in Lucario's pressure strings and squeeze attacks in between them. I find playing as Lucario works pretty well.
But seriously, you should try to find openings in Lucario's pressure strings and squeeze attacks in between them. I find playing as Lucario works pretty well.
This is exactly why it's not as easy as simply "keep them off stage". They DI enough, and eventually they'll be recovering overhead rather than off level. It makes it THAT much harder to edgeguard them. They recover overhead, and you have to move around in order to position yourself right, which results in giving them more room to recover with.
Scenario: Lucario is off of the level (let's assume for simplicity, that you are playing on Final Destination [for god knows what reason]), and he's currently recovering:
1) Attack: The problem with attacking is that if you attack too soon (ie: Far off of the level), you risk the chance of whiffing the attack and being reverse edgeguarded (which sucks if the Lucario knows all the tricks we can pull on the ledge. Using Spring to recover over is a decent option, but now you are jumpless against a character that typically outranges you in the air and on the ground).
You attack at a midpoint, and the reverse edgeguard is less dangerous, but now you're dealing with them surviving via DI'ing upward (which is very effective unless they are at the top of the screen), which means rather than pressure them off of the stage (which you're really not, since DI'ing up has given them THAT much more room to navigate), you're just juicing them up.
You attack near the end, and the issues with midpoint only become larger.
2) Wait: Letting them snag the ledge isn't that bad since Lucario lacks a certain sense of safety when he's trying to get back on the level from the ledge, but this requires the Sonic to be extremely precise when it comes to punishing Lucario, since if he recovers with a jump, he outranges everything but uair2 (impractical and difficult) and bair (which results in staling a key KO option). His other options simply require a good read.
If you move away, or need to move away because he's covering a range that you can't safely poke through, you're giving him more level to land on, which only makes punishing his choice on how he recovers more difficult.
There's no reliably effective way to keep him off of the level. In order to be effective in that regard, you'd need to find a way to either consistently punish them far off of the level, always be able to read their option choice, or land something crazy like a footstool or a semi-spike dair.
Speaking of which:
It's definitely a legit way to KO someone, and I could see it being VERY effective on Lucario. The problem is the spacing required. Lucario covers his upper body with uair, most of his front with fair, and he has airdodge as well.
The level of difficulty of landing semispike dair is ridiculous.
=====
One thing I've been thinking about recently, though:
As stupid and dangerous as it is, why don't any of us ever spin dash off of the level at a recovering opponent, and hit to buffer footstool them? If they jump out of it on reaction while being far off of the ledge, and we read that, that's a spring hit right there. If it's near the ledge, free edgeguard against most characters.
Not sure if this was ever brought up before though. I'm getting an intense case of deja vu.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
it definitely has been brought up before Espy. Ive done it before to some characters, KID did it to Will and thought he was a genius lol but its effective. I was actually going through Sonic Orochi's old guide lol and I was thinking about that. Also espy i was thinking of just falling alongside lucario and just going for the dair semi spike/bair or if he goes too low just for that option fast fall HA. Given that we will be closer to the edge, we could HA the up b on reaction. I mean I think that we can force a low recovery with spaced bairs and the threat of DJ dair semi spike. I also like for the sake of gimmicks forcing a response by spindashing off to spinshot back. If they throw out anything then I can quick HA and punish given HA is 26 frames. Not easy but somewhat feasible.
I like using low HAs because characters with these particular recoveries dont have much options; given good spacing it should be hard for them to hit you without compromising their second jump and they cant AD the HA otherwise theyll be too low to recover.I think staying at a safe distance falling alongside lucario is a good bet, just zoning him offstage.
If theyre far off stage they have to inevitably make a laggy option in up bing or placing a hitbox out with a DJ to combat your zone.
EDIT: BTW under a platform uthrow>sh nair is **** against a lot of characters especially snake. hes got to take the nair or get jab locked for free due to soft hit. its pretty tyte. Oh and does anyone know if we have frame advantage if we perfect auto cancel (no ff) uair on shield? I have a sneaking suspicion we do, and I have been using it as of late.
I finally started going to tourney again. My friend and I almost took out Sky and Rich 3rd game last stock last hit....then i SD because I wasnt on the ground long enough or something and didnt have a jump. I hate that crap. Played some ranked MK Sake and took him out, played sky some friendlies and trashed his wario. Sucks because we did pools and i got 2nd seed for pro bracket then I had to leave lol. So i got 17th lol. It was fun though playing again.
@Espy freakin Shugo told DEHF the ways to fight Sonic lol. Guy keeps owning me in friendlies whenever we practice.
I like using low HAs because characters with these particular recoveries dont have much options; given good spacing it should be hard for them to hit you without compromising their second jump and they cant AD the HA otherwise theyll be too low to recover.I think staying at a safe distance falling alongside lucario is a good bet, just zoning him offstage.
If theyre far off stage they have to inevitably make a laggy option in up bing or placing a hitbox out with a DJ to combat your zone.
EDIT: BTW under a platform uthrow>sh nair is **** against a lot of characters especially snake. hes got to take the nair or get jab locked for free due to soft hit. its pretty tyte. Oh and does anyone know if we have frame advantage if we perfect auto cancel (no ff) uair on shield? I have a sneaking suspicion we do, and I have been using it as of late.
I finally started going to tourney again. My friend and I almost took out Sky and Rich 3rd game last stock last hit....then i SD because I wasnt on the ground long enough or something and didnt have a jump. I hate that crap. Played some ranked MK Sake and took him out, played sky some friendlies and trashed his wario. Sucks because we did pools and i got 2nd seed for pro bracket then I had to leave lol. So i got 17th lol. It was fun though playing again.
@Espy freakin Shugo told DEHF the ways to fight Sonic lol. Guy keeps owning me in friendlies whenever we practice.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
DOUBLE POST: Soft Hit Nair is an awesome edgeguard by the way if used in conjunction with spindash and dj shenanigans. that soft hit has a good amount of hit stun and like no knockback