Act 3 Clear!!: Sonic Tournament Results & Discussion Thread

[Espy Rose]

Homing Attack is never feasible.
...unless you're talking about Snake's recovery.

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHuW967e66A#t=05m25s

and honestly, the spindash footstool i did to will... I only did it because that was the one useful thing Ive ever seen wedge post, ever. he was the one to tip me off to that.

if you up throw someone on to the bf plat form. I think up smash > nair, in terms of either hitting them or pushing thme off the plat.

Ima try HA vs extreme speed next time i get a chance.

Lol espy, how is homing attack not a good option against a move that typically is moving up, (into the path of HA) and doesnt have a hit box?

 

[Espy Rose]

LOL.
That dair was awesome.

I prefer bairing them off of the platforms myself.

It's a "meh" option. Not a good option.
Because, you know, they can Extremespeed in other directions...

 

[da K.I.D.]

if they are even with/below the stage, all of those directions include some form of up.

and as long as its moving up, it should get hit by ha.

 

[Espy Rose]

Why are they below the stage?

And if they're even, they can just go straight.

 

[B.A.M.]

dont we beat out fair with our bair? if so then going straight is a liability. especially high to mid range where we could just jump up and dair semi spike to counter the attack. And if our frame data is correct, HA could be feasible in this scenario.

@ KID that dair was pretty funny. So anyone try the uthrow> sh nair frame trap under bf platform vs snake yet? its amazing. And no. usmash does not win in that scenario. Why? Cuz it doesnt give the guaranteed jab lock that nair will. I believe we can actually finish it off with a jab>edge slip> run off bair if done correctly. Speaking of which..........

@Espy loved that jab> edge slip> bair with the spring> uair read vs mega fox on smashville at the end. Too good. I found it odd that Mega Fox jumped at that time though. awesome read.

EDIT: How about the spring> dair to the ledge edgeguard. how would that fair? worked on FlameWave awhile ago.....then again it is Flamewave. I need to stop by his house and test some ish......... i feel like gimps could be a key in this matchup. Please try the aerial zoning> HA Espy if you have a chance to. I do believe that could be an option. I mean its no aerial zoning> Reverse SL like Meta, but it could be somewhat proficient.

 

[Espy Rose]

Our bair either beats or trades with his fair.

But then Lucario DI's up, and now he has more room to recover, juiced up aura, and we just +1'd a stale on our most flexible KO option.

 

[Tesh]

He can DI up somewhat on homing attack too. Its also easily avoided because first of all its so slow that he can dodge it on reaction and still recover after you miss if he was level with the stage to begin with. 2nd of all, if he starts extreme speed first, homing attack is too slow to counter. Finally even if you DO manage to hit him, you will likely just send him up and above the stage.

 

[da K.I.D.]

dont we beat out fair with our bair? if so then going straight is a liability. especially high to mid range where we could just jump up and dair semi spike to counter the attack. And if our frame data is correct, HA could be feasible in this scenario.

I agree.

@ KID that dair was pretty funny. So anyone try the uthrow> sh nair frame trap under bf platform vs snake yet? its amazing. And no. usmash does not win in that scenario. Why? Cuz it doesnt give the guaranteed jab lock that nair will. I believe we can actually finish it off with a jab>edge slip> run off bair if done correctly. Speaking of which..........

how are you jabbing a snake off of the bf plat form from a SH nair?

EDIT: How about the spring> dair to the ledge edgeguard. how would that fair? worked on FlameWave awhile ago.....then again it is Flamewave. I need to stop by his house and test some ish......... i feel like gimps could be a key in this matchup. Please try the aerial zoning> HA Espy if you have a chance to. I do believe that could be an option. I mean its no aerial zoning> Reverse SL like Meta, but it could be somewhat proficient.

that seems like a terrible idea.
and its not a feeling, if were not gimping lucario, we arent winning. at all.

Our bair either beats or trades with his fair.

But then Lucario DI's up, and now he has more room to recover, juiced up aura, and we just +1'd a stale on our most flexible KO option.

the way I see it, you have 2 ways to go at this matchup.
1. play him like your fighting peach and just bair anything and everything. and be as safe as possible and keep bairing until you either gimp him, kill him at 190 with up throw, or get a lucky random kill move.
2. fight him normally but dont use bair at all, and safe it until 140, whne you KNOW, not think but KNOW it will kill, and use the bair to kill him outright.

either way its an up hill battle but each method is equally viable imo.

when I have to make this choice I usually choose option 1. I feel that mk forces you to make the same decision.

 

[B.A.M.]

lol MK definitely doesnt force our hand like he does lucario KID.

Secondly, this is something ive known for a bit, but now its been confirmed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyFtJDxsqMs

Now uthrow places snake a little above the platforms height ( which is why things like uthrow>buffered fair work because he will land on the platform if he buffers an AD - which is the only viable defensive option for the most part in that scenario. Now the same things goes for Nair, however its soft hit will place the opponent into an edge slip animation; an animation that nets us a free jab lock vs snake ( among many). its like the ness setup he does cept we do it with uthrow which is far more feasible. Now jab may actually do this at the stage edge too after a jab lock ( still trying to confirm, although i do believe i am correct) provided its the right spacing and its on hit. If this does ull be able to do a jab>run off bair as a true follow up. I know jab> run off bair is a true combo on platforms due to the fall but it might work out with the stage as well. Its funny Espy did a jab>run off bair vs Mega fox recently. I wonder if he knew it was a true combo and that he COULDNT tech that.



Just try the damn thing and see for yourself.note this works for alot of characters and we have setups into multiple jab locks from this that are somewhat feasible.

 

[Espy Rose]

I was fully aware that Megafox couldn't avoid the run off bair, BAM.
@KID: I'd prefer option 2, simply because it not only avoids Lucario hitting max aura (160% I think?), but because it also means getting punished doesn't hurt nearly as hard.

 

[B.A.M.]

@Espy: Of course you would be haha. Yeah i always thought u could DI it and be okay even with characters like fox but it turns out that DI doesnt matter lol. I love jab> run off bair. Seriously man is there any gimps that have been working for you vs Lucario? I seriously cant stand that dog. I need to get in the lab and see. I need some lucario test dummies though. Ill probably try it out with some people; maybe larry will help me. Any suggestions that I should try Espy?

Isnt the only reason you would hate lucario being at max aura is BECAUSE he could punish hard?

Hey how was it playing Shugo's Falco? How'd he go about shutting down our options?

@KID how about using reverse dsmashes to land camp kill? From my experience its very hard for the Lucario to deal with because it avoid any possible attack they throw out with the forward motion AND punishes an AD. Its all in the timing and spacing though. its not too bad. It works for a lot of characters once u get the spacing. The one issue i could see is not getting the strong initial hit, but then again the sooner u get to the right spot you can just charge that hoe.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol MK definitely doesnt force our hand like he does lucario KID.

Secondly, this is something ive known for a bit, but now its been confirmed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyFtJDxsqMs

Now uthrow places snake a little above the platforms height ( which is why things like uthrow>buffered fair work because he will land on the platform if he buffers an AD - which is the only viable defensive option for the most part in that scenario. Now the same things goes for Nair, however its soft hit will place the opponent into an edge slip animation; an animation that nets us a free jab lock vs snake ( among many). its like the ness setup he does cept we do it with uthrow which is far more feasible. Now jab may actually do this at the stage edge too after a jab lock ( still trying to confirm, although i do believe i am correct) provided its the right spacing and its on hit. If this does ull be able to do a jab>run off bair as a true follow up. I know jab> run off bair is a true combo on platforms due to the fall but it might work out with the stage as well. Its funny Espy did a jab>run off bair vs Mega fox recently. I wonder if he knew it was a true combo and that he COULDNT tech that.



Just try the damn thing and see for yourself.note this works for alot of characters and we have setups into multiple jab locks from this that are somewhat feasible.

I knew what you were talking about and ive done it before but the way you worded it made it sound like, you were somehow doing a short hop nair, landing on the platform and than jabbing him off the platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dywO7pmHhDY
like that.

i just like doing up smash because it seems more guaranteed, to either hit or knock him off the plat. also, you know this doesnt work if the guy is facing the direction of the ledge. which makes me think, ive never had to worry about it before, but the opponent stays facing the same direction after the up throw right?

I was fully aware that Megafox couldn't avoid the run off bair, BAM.
@KID: I'd prefer option 2, simply because it not only avoids Lucario hitting max aura (160% I think?), but because it also means getting punished doesn't hurt nearly as hard.

hmmm, good point. the lucario thing is the reason I started getting confirmed numbers for our kill moves, because it hurts so much more to have luc survive something, more than every other character. are there any situations, where you think that

are there any specific situations that jabbing someone off stage might be relatively consistent, because I cant think of anything.

@Espy: Of course you would be haha. Yeah i always thought u could DI it and be okay even with characters like fox but it turns out that DI doesnt matter lol. I love jab> run off bair. Seriously man is there any gimps that have been working for you vs Lucario? I seriously cant stand that dog. I need to get in the lab and see. I need some lucario test dummies though. Ill probably try it out with some people; maybe larry will help me. Any suggestions that I should try Espy?

Isnt the only reason you would hate lucario being at max aura is BECAUSE he could punish hard?

Hey how was it playing Shugo's Falco? How'd he go about shutting down our options?

@KID how about using reverse dsmashes to land camp kill? From my experience its very hard for the Lucario to deal with because it avoid any possible attack they throw out with the forward motion AND punishes an AD. Its all in the timing and spacing though. its not too bad. It works for a lot of characters once u get the spacing. The one issue i could see is not getting the strong initial hit, but then again the sooner u get to the right spot you can just charge that hoe.

1. does jab run off bair hit people that dont jump into it?
2. it honestly pretty hard, aside from bair, which you might not want to use depending on his %, all of his aerials beat ours. but what you want to try is fairing down on him. of spacing an up air from under him. anything you can do to either rack damage on him, or force him to use his up b onstage, if you can do that, you can usually get a grab and reset the situation.

3. shugos falco is pretty agressive. he pins you with a few lasers, but for the most part it was a lot of jab mix ups and bair stuffs. his bair beats a lot of our moves, and he doesnt need much timing or spacing to do it. I was just overwhelmed mainly when i played him.
but then I reverse 3 stocked him in falco dittoes and all was right with the world. =P

4. I dont like trying to down smash lucarios landing unless i have a lot of momentum, which is more assurance that hes going to AD, other wise i dont think trying to beat a possible dair with down smash is a good idea, its not in our favor at all.

 

[B.A.M.]

@KID regarding dsmash you dont try to beat it. you just time it so the initial hit moves you out of the way of dair.

jab> run off bair works because for certain characters edge slip means untechable landing (although if i could get some frame data back i could see if this works for all characters). Which is what espy did on a platform. I am researching right now if this applies to the stage edge as well. I told GIMR it seems to work for me so hes going to check it.

and ****** what did i just tell you about uthrow> sh nair under a BF platform? its a better setup and gets you an easier jab lock. If Espy wanted he couldve jab locked Mega Fox after that jab off the platform guaranteed. Try it on Snake dude. seriously.


LOL Falco dittos

 

[da K.I.D.]

down smash thing seems way too inconsistent, id rather save that for character that i know my move will beat theirs, like snake. i mean, im eventually gonna try it because im dumb and flashy like that. but in that situation id more often would just shield and take the free up air.

most characters just grab the ledge when that happens on the edge of a stage.

and didnt i just link a video of me doing this to somebody, its obvious i know the concepts and implications. dont get sassy with me *****, ill cut you.

ps i just remembered why i like up smash better.
less chance of getting nade countered

 

[NAKAT]

Someone teach me Sonic.

 

[WedginatorX]

Lol if you're actually interested in learning him, I'll actually get my *** up and go to an event. You could ask Kai but he hasn't been very active lately either.
When's the next tourney Inui is hosting? I might try to go, and I'll work on your sonic there if I do.

 

[NAKAT]

Lol if you're actually interested in learning him, I'll actually get my *** up and go to an event. You could ask Kai but he hasn't been very active lately either.
When's the next tourney Inui is hosting? I might try to go, and I'll work on your sonic there if I do.

I am actually serious. I love his games and him as a character, but when I used him for the first time it was hard. He looks like a fun character and he is fast which is what I adore in a character. Who knows if I get good enough with him I can actually contribute results for him.

 

[WedginatorX]

Oh word. Then I'm definitely interested in helping you out. I'll see if I can get to something soon. I could try to teach you a bit of the basics over aim, but it makes more sense if you get shown how to play sonic in person, because even then it can be confusing.

 

[B.A.M.]

@KID dude Snake can beat dsmash with freakin bair son. what are u babbling about. besides its not that hard to aim. I mean most ppl with dair at like sh height anyways just to hit us cuz we are in ball form and they re fast falling. just let it go around then and ur good for the most part. Its awesome on snake because then u just face the direction his head would be and ur golden theres nothing he can do. If u are really concerned about guaranteed ish just uair frame trap him ( yeah i know u know).

Played Rich's Oli the other day and did fairly well. owned some other oli's too. I just was curious if u guys got any suggestions in how to go about that matchup. All i do is

1. go for oli's blind spot
2. juggle
3. land camp

I heard that our nair beats out somethings. is this true?

 

[BSP]

Well in Olimar's case, it should trade neutralize all the pikmin attacks. Unless you're talking about something else that I have no idea about.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the chances of snake bairing me out of down smash is fairly low from my experience, and the chances of luc dairing me out of it, seem to be much higher. not to mention that if the luc is over 100, its more dangerous than snakes bair too.


like I said, im probably still gonna try it at some point because im stupid, but generally if im fighting a lucario, im just gonna shield the dair and up air him. as that seems like the most consistent option.

 

[Trent]

It's pretty simple for Snake to Bair you out of DSmash. They just have to throw it out, then it's mission accomplished. It's not really a timing thing, it just straight out beats DSmash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

no it doesnt. you doin it wrong brah

 

[WedginatorX]

Alright, so let's do some simple reasoning.
KID's wins on Snake mains:
-
KID's losses to Snake mains:
F4tal
B1zkit
K9's secondary snake x2

I'll allow you to make your own conclusions whether or not to take his advice on what works and doesn't work against snake.
If he's been trying to counter snake's bair with dsmash, no wonder why he can't beat a single snake.

 

[sonictailslink]

NeoVegasSmash Brawl Monthlies #3
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=11724
April 9th, 2011
Out of 25
13th - Kinzer
17th - Tails

*sigh*...I'm starting to not care anymore. Why is it I get stuck playing against the same character or group of characters. Last month it was Falco, this month Zelda/Sheik. Ugh, whatever.

 

[da K.I.D.]

why are you two getting outplaced by ankoku?

 

[sonictailslink]

Do I really need to say it KID?

 

[Life]

Kinzer got 13th

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre the one who has to see my quote every time he posts, so you should know that I said he wouldnt get PAST 13th.

 

[Life]

Oh right.

That being said, you didn't answer me when I asked if you learned anything from doing this.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i learned that out of the 5 or so people that place higher than 13th, 3 of them I didnt even know about when I said it. Like meek speedy.

 

[Zankoku]

why are you two getting outplaced by ankoku?

Wait, what? Are you accusing me of something? LOL

Don't hate just because I play a better character

 

[Espy Rose]

lol.

I just realized that Admins and Senators have the same icons.
Lame.

 

[Zankoku]

That's not to mention moderators. :V

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah, I was gonna say that.
Is it possible to be all three? That'd be hilarious.

 

[Life]

I thought Admins were already Mods by definition?....

And KID, that's not the answer I was looking for <.< (but it might do)

 

[da K.I.D.]

ankoku, you said yourself in the shiek thread that you consider yourself only average.

I feel as if Kinzer is better than average, yet he places below average.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, sure, if you were looking for the gatekeeper between competitive players and good competitive players, that'd be me. It's not like a moving average is easy to keep up with if you keep flipping between liking the game and despising it, though.

If it's any consolation to you, Kinzer made more money than I did that day because he went on to win the amateur bracket (players who placed outside of the top 8).

 

[Tesh]

-HOBO 31 : Sync edition
-http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301241
-4/9/11
-32 attendees.
-Dead last/32, Tesh, All Sonic!

I did however place higher than 13th at the local side event though. Same thing pretty much.

Quitting Sonic for MK now. I'll come back later for my stuff.