Player-1
Smash Legend
Okay....? I don't know what this quote is supposed to mean when it's taken out of context like this.
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A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban
- Thread starter mikeHAZE
- Start date
I just want MikeHaze to let the people know what his decision was when it actually mattered - instead of posting all of these videos after the fact. It really does not seem unreasonable to me, considering everything he has said after the ban vote, to ask him to publicly talk about his own thinking and vote.Cassio said:
That would be pretty clear, since, clearly, the URC voted overwhelming for the ban. This is not some 'bias' that is exactly being hidden.
Player-1
Smash Legend
That's funny since a lot of our work gets done in our skype meetings and marc didn't attend any of them.
Conviction
Human Nature
Everyone who wants him banned is biased obviously. So is everyone that has an opinion on the ban
Look the bat is about to banned next year. Suck it up, and man up. Lol idk why people are still harping on about it. It hasn't even happened yet. Can we at least let the MK-less metagame run for at least 3 months before you start crying rivers and more trolls come crawling out from under their bridges?
Derp.
Look the bat is about to banned next year. Suck it up, and man up. Lol idk why people are still harping on about it. It hasn't even happened yet. Can we at least let the MK-less metagame run for at least 3 months before you start crying rivers and more trolls come crawling out from under their bridges?
M2K, you in particular seem to be the one that is crying the most. I respect that you put in all the time and effort with MK and you are sad to see him go, but look calling everyone against you biased and not taking a check in the mirror to see that you are just as biased is becoming ridiculous. Real *****s, Real Life, Real Talk. Smashboards.
Derp.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
You can't use the case for us being as biased because 81% of people don't even use him. that's 4/5ths of people that don't use him. So for every one of us that are biased, we have 4 of you guys that are biased. So the argument holds stronger for that case. That's why it shouldn't be decided like that at all, it should be based around the character not a popularity contest, which honestly is all it is right now.
Player-1
Smash Legend
I hope you realize how ridiculous saying "Everyone who doesn't main MK is automatically biased for him to be banned" sounds.
edit: and I personally believe that everyone has some sort of bias in an argument, it's just how minimal the bias is.
edit: and I personally believe that everyone has some sort of bias in an argument, it's just how minimal the bias is.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
It's no more ridiculous than calling every MK main Biased, player-1
btw, I'm not denying that I'm biased. I AM biased. But I am still saying what I think, and I am still pointing out that almost everyone else is just as guilty. See my above post.
That's why it comes down to a popularity contest, where the votes are going to be PRETTY SIMILAR to what the voting is (based mostly around who does and does not use him). Which, ** surprise surprise ** is what happened.
btw, I'm not denying that I'm biased. I AM biased. But I am still saying what I think, and I am still pointing out that almost everyone else is just as guilty. See my above post.
That's why it comes down to a popularity contest, where the votes are going to be PRETTY SIMILAR to what the voting is (based mostly around who does and does not use him). Which, ** surprise surprise ** is what happened.
Player-1
Smash Legend
I never called every MK main biased.
Conviction
Human Nature
Doesn't any voting boil down to that. Whatever decision was made whether it be objective or subjective, the people voting for that answer (most of the time) have a bias towards that choice. That's why the chose it.
Yes the majority of the community wanted MK gone. So yes the majority was biased to having him gone. Sinking in yet?
Everyone's biased in some regard to something. Get over it.
Yes the majority of the community wanted MK gone. So yes the majority was biased to having him gone. Sinking in yet?
Everyone's biased in some regard to something. Get over it.
Conviction
Human Nature
Anti-ban being the status-quo for the past 3 years sounds like a lot of pressure for anyone wanting to change it.
What's your point Masky?
URC members can still have outside influences from other members. It's not like they were held in a room by gun point.
What's your point Masky?
URC members can still have outside influences from other members. It's not like they were held in a room by gun point.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
A ban should not be based around that, it should be based on if the character ACTUALLY DESERVES to go, by being too overpowered.
The argument is that he's not too good but too overcentralized, which is also disproved here. So now that leaves nothing, except that people are going to vote to what benefits him. There is no good reason left to do it anymore.
The argument is that he's not too good but too overcentralized, which is also disproved here. So now that leaves nothing, except that people are going to vote to what benefits him. There is no good reason left to do it anymore.
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
Anybody ever wonder why the Metaknight ban thread (or any thread) in the URC isn't publicly viewable?
Conviction
Human Nature
You would be voting to benefit yourself M2K, so shut that argument up.
Even if Mike's data was accurate, the 11%, why is that 11% making up to more than half of the money this year, and probably more if we were able to collect the data from the past years?
Classic history and politics, majority is always going be over minority, barring specific cases.
@Mike: To avoid trolling, flaming, the works. Basically the same reason any thread in the BBR isn't publicly viewable. Where are you getting at?
Even if Mike's data was accurate, the 11%, why is that 11% making up to more than half of the money this year, and probably more if we were able to collect the data from the past years?
Classic history and politics, majority is always going be over minority, barring specific cases.
@Mike: To avoid trolling, flaming, the works. Basically the same reason any thread in the BBR isn't publicly viewable. Where are you getting at?
Here is an analysis of the character without even bothering with statistics like money earned or usage:
-Best character in the game by a lot
-No bad match ups, not a single one, and almost universally accepted as having no even match ups either
-Twice as successful as the third best character (according to tier list) and 3-4 times as successful as the 2nd best character
-Multiple rules just to keep the character legal, including a lower LGL as well as the ban of the IDC
-People who don't want MK banned want even more stages banned to keep the character legal, even though in areas of the US where this has happened it made no difference.
Yes, MK IS OVERPOWERED. How twisted is it that we bent-over-backwards for 3 years just to keep one character legal that wouldn't have been had we not made so many changes to the ruleset, and even with those changes the character still dominated to a point that 3/4ths of the community wanted him banned.
As for "not enough discussion with both sides" - I don't really know how to address this than to point to 2-3 years of discussions of which almost every member of the community, especially TO's, were well versed in both sides of the argument.
It's funny though, that you bring this point up, while simultaneously hiding what your actual vote/stance was on the MK ban from the public. You can't have it both ways.
Before the URC came around most TO's made a rule decision and never even talked about it with anyone, much less fellow TO's. Seriously, how many times did you justify a rule decision in depth to people who were attending your tournaments? Maybe 1 rule? 2? Here and there? To only a few random people, and likely in real life and not on the boards?
Pick a national tournament: now pick a national that had had a ruleset discussion thread where the TO actively answered questions. Finally, in the event there ever was such a thread for [insert tournament] were any rules ever changed as a result of discussion?
There are 500 tournaments a year. There are not 500 threads discussing rules, most tournaments that post rules don't justify the ruleset beyond "it's my tournament, these the rules, deal with it".
-Best character in the game by a lot
-No bad match ups, not a single one, and almost universally accepted as having no even match ups either
-Twice as successful as the third best character (according to tier list) and 3-4 times as successful as the 2nd best character
-Multiple rules just to keep the character legal, including a lower LGL as well as the ban of the IDC
-People who don't want MK banned want even more stages banned to keep the character legal, even though in areas of the US where this has happened it made no difference.
Yes, MK IS OVERPOWERED. How twisted is it that we bent-over-backwards for 3 years just to keep one character legal that wouldn't have been had we not made so many changes to the ruleset, and even with those changes the character still dominated to a point that 3/4ths of the community wanted him banned.
This is why talking about bias is basically a moot point. Every single person is biased. So why bother bringing it up, since the point can just as easily be turned around on you.Mew2King said:
It is just as easily possible that the pro-ban forces are making that person change their vote. That stuff is going to happen in any debate, some people are simply not strong willed enough to stick by their own beliefs and instead get bulldozed by whoever is being loudest in their ears - which you can bet is probably M2K.
As for "not enough discussion with both sides" - I don't really know how to address this than to point to 2-3 years of discussions of which almost every member of the community, especially TO's, were well versed in both sides of the argument.
Every single private forum on Smashboards is not publicly viewable. Every single one. Staff. Senate. Disco room. Hall of Representatives. BBR. MBR. Smash64 BR. The list goes on.MikeHaze said:
It's funny though, that you bring this point up, while simultaneously hiding what your actual vote/stance was on the MK ban from the public. You can't have it both ways.
Before the URC came around most TO's made a rule decision and never even talked about it with anyone, much less fellow TO's. Seriously, how many times did you justify a rule decision in depth to people who were attending your tournaments? Maybe 1 rule? 2? Here and there? To only a few random people, and likely in real life and not on the boards?
Pick a national tournament: now pick a national that had had a ruleset discussion thread where the TO actively answered questions. Finally, in the event there ever was such a thread for [insert tournament] were any rules ever changed as a result of discussion?
There are 500 tournaments a year. There are not 500 threads discussing rules, most tournaments that post rules don't justify the ruleset beyond "it's my tournament, these the rules, deal with it".
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I'm the only really outspoken person because it affects me the most, I am the best MK player, smash is my life, and I use the forums every day and really think this was done wrongly. If the character really deserved to go, that would be a totally different situation, but he simply does not. He is not broken, and Mikehaze proved he is not overcentralized. He is neither of those things, and the main argument you guys gave for wanting to ban him was overcentralized, which he is not. About 11 or 13% main him and 20% use him. That's nothing. That's - NOTHING -. In fact, I may be TOTALLY off on this but just from personal experience from both Pound5 and NY events, there seems to be a lot more Falcos in melee than MKs in brawl. There is no good reason anymore to ban MK, especially since the overcentralization thing has been disproved.
Player-1
Smash Legend
The criteria for a ban is merely an opinion. It is my opinion that bannable criteria is if it's hurting the community/competitiveness of the game (which it was IMO).
I can also argue that ~20% of a single character is overcentralized since there are 37 characters in the game or something like that and when the next most used character is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than that. Not to mention that this is for the overall community including the low level players that think Ike is the best character in the game because his fsmash kills at 40. When you get to a higher level of play you see a lot more MKs. I just counted the amount of people that have MK in their "C1" column in the top 100 on SWF Rankings and 31 people (31%) were listed with MK.
Conviction
Human Nature
Planning on actually answering my question?
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
But no one can ever explain why no other countries have a problem with MK (other than they play with honor) and why our best MK didn't win our first international tournament. If they did play with honor, don't you think they would have a soft ban on MK?
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
Hahahaha AZ is sooooooooo salty. The Emperor is getting scared.That video must've hit home. Hahahaha
My brotha Mike is gonna start posting videos to help the community in the MK MU. Sounds bueno to me.
@John12346: heres some data you can find for my friend. The ratio of money made for character vs the popularity of the character. Then you can figure out how much excess money is allocated to MK due to the splitting the money amongst characters.
@xIblisx: You are arguing with Jebus, your statements are now invalid. Just like Player-1.
My brotha Mike is gonna start posting videos to help the community in the MK MU. Sounds bueno to me.
@John12346: heres some data you can find for my friend. The ratio of money made for character vs the popularity of the character. Then you can figure out how much excess money is allocated to MK due to the splitting the money amongst characters.
@xIblisx: You are arguing with Jebus, your statements are now invalid. Just like Player-1.
Conviction
Human Nature
Aiyyo son, since I know I'm talking to you my patience is already starting on a low. So keep up.
I don't care about other countries, this is about the URC Ruleset, that affects the US, Canada, and maybe Northern Mexico.
As much as I love Japan, didn't Brood get a lower placing at smaller scale tourney in the states not too long after APEX?
Mekos
Smash Master
Wow at this. Awesome posts and I agree.
Maybe it has to do with their stage list selection and their 10 minute timer. Japan and Europe has stated this and M2k has stated this yet URC refuses to change this. This baffles me.
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
It doesn't matter. He didn't travel all the way over here for a local. He did what he had to do at Apex
Conviction
Human Nature
Derp? Didn't the URC start advertising the use of experimental rulesets and if said rulesets had positive effects they would possibly intergrate them into the new ruleset?
@Jebus: Ignoring facts? He did travel all the way for APEX but assuming he went to the other tourney, sandbagging, is just bad thinking. Unless you personally spoke to him about it. Care to try your Japanese with me?
Player-1
Smash Legend
maybe because it's dumb to ban perfectly fine stages because of a single character, this has been stated many times as well and it baffles me how people still don't get this.
It's not this. The URC has only had the Unity ruleset for 8 months. Every non-Unity ruleset also still uses the 8 minute timer and has since Brawl's release (roughly 1,500 tournaments, only ~100 of which have so far been URC). At tournaments here in the states that have had significantly fewer stages, Meta Knight still dominated. In fact, NY/NJ has always been known as having the fewest stages available in the states (exception for Keitaro's tournaments) and yet...NY/NJ has also had the reputation as the most MK infested area in the states.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
MK has A LOT of even Matchups, and some losing matchups. But why take my word, I'm JUST A BIASED MK MAIN AND NONE OF YOU ARE
-ICs and Diddy and Olimar and Snake on FD. He loses to ALL 4 of these characters on FD. Seriously. Almost all of my losses in tournament are to one of these characters on FD, even if I'm better than the player. Don't argue that MK doesn't beat them just because this extremely biased board says he is. Metaknight loses to all 4 of those characters on FD
-Overall I just feel like the MUs in general against these characters can pretty much be even as far as the neutrals go. Why is it that Europe (I am not 100% sure of their stage list EXCEPT that they use less stages than we do) and Japan's best 3 players each use Marth/Mario/Wario and ICs/Olimar/ICs.
-MK ***** these characters on Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. Those stages SHOULD BE BANNED anyway. But you AZ wanted a billion stages on and DELPHINO PLAZA A NEUTRAL, so I guess arguing this is a moot point since that's what you BBR guys voted on. You created rules where MK is AT HIS VERY BEST, and then now use that as ammo against us, which is something t0mmy or t1mmy made in an aib blog back in 2010 (and you can see PROOF of this on allisbrawl).
MK does not need to create changes to the ruleset either. In fact, I think the game would be better with a Ledge grab limit because of SEVERAL characters.
-Velocity planked my DDD with GW and it was ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to get the ledge from him. Meaning if GW is winning, there is almost no reason to NOT go to the ledge
-Inui beat me IN A TOURNEY MATCH by picking pit vs my marth or DDD (I do not remember if it was DDD or Marth tbch, but it was one of them, during the first month of brawl back when there was no LGL), running away on the ledge shooting arrows, even flying under sometimes, and I couldn't beat it. And before you say I'm "bad" for that, I won that tournament with those characters, and it was the only tournament match I lost the whole time. Just because you don't see Pits today that's just because no one wants to play Pit (in Japan Masashi does very well though even though according to rain he rarely plays anymore) doesn't mean other characters can't do this ****. The game is fine the way it is.
-Everyone knows now about DK's planking. It's not unbeatable, because NONE of them are, BUT it's very overpowered, to the point that it's DETRIMENTAL.
I would go as far as to say there might need to be a LGL in Melee cuz of Puff, but not to the same degree as SEVERAL brawl characters can do it. None of them is unbeatable, but all of them are pretty powerful, and the game would be better off without them.
TKD
Smash Lord
You mean 4/5ths of the community, right?
No, wait; 19%
Having to play MK is not THAT bad. The more competitive of us will simply go to the next best thing: for example, I'll play Diddy Kong. Others will play Snake. We'll always go to the char without the counters. You keep saying that Snake and Diddy do have counters, but you haven't seen them at the level you've seen MK.
The only thing the ban truly changes is doubles, and NJ/NY.
Conviction
Human Nature
Making sure Jebus sees this.
Preach, my next-to-kin. Even though Diddy Kong actually loses some MUs.
TKD
Smash Lord
Diddy just loses to, if anyone, Toon Link: a bad character.
Conviction
Human Nature
Disagree but I still think as I said before, we should actually let the MK-less Metagame run for a little before we start complaining (well people are already complaining before ban has even started).
Mew2King
King of the Mews
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
Oh Jason dont feed these people reason. They want to have crazy stages, because theyre used to playing platformers. I mean seriously, how can people not get the fact that there are particular stages in our rule set that call for ridiculous over centralizing tactics. we should have stages that have the least influence on testing opponent a vs opponent b.
@TKD: oh and Diddy loses to MK, I mean look at ADHD he barely plays and beats every MK sans M2K, Anti, Ally- oh wait..........................
@TKD: oh and Diddy loses to MK, I mean look at ADHD he barely plays and beats every MK sans M2K, Anti, Ally- oh wait..........................
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
@xIbisx, He still beat a lot of our top players which is all that matters. He is also one the reasons why Rich was able to beat M2K at MLG
So the only even matchups all occur on FD...and everyone gets one stage ban. I use Diddy. I never get to play on FD. Pretty pointless to have an even MU there.
Europe and Japan are different from us. Their communities are smaller, they develop differently, and ultimately what may be a problem in the states may not be there because of a lot of reasons, of which it would be impossible to figure out which one. It could be because MK is not broken, or it could be because their community is 1/10th our size and overall not as developed, even if a few players excel highly.
As mentioned earlier, the NY/NJ where the stage list is the smallest in the states, MK still dominates (and in many cases, is the most dominant). The BBR wanted Delphino as a starter, and I used the BBR stage list for MLG. I didn't like it but I went with what they suggested and it deserved some use. Results were mixed. After MLG, I advocated for a 7-stage starter list that did not have Delphino.
However, the rules were not created so "MK is AT HIS VERY BEST". Thanks for this quote though, because it just goes to show that the current ruleset everyone wants to advocate for (who still wants MK legal) is meant to keep MK as his very worst, just so he stays legal.
Yeah, this is my question. Why are we hitting the other 35 characters in this game just because of MK?
sounds familiarMew2king said:
.AC.
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,122
what are you basing this on? aren't japanese tournaments in fact big enough to the point they limit entrants?
Conviction
Human Nature
Didn't I tell you to keep up? Stop digressing.
The point you brought up was MK not winning APEX, because of Brood. I told you Brood placed lower in a local not too long after. You start to digress by ignoring the fact he didn't live to expectations the second time around. Stop cherrying picking results that support your side of the argument and then when you realize that doesn't work, you cover up by changing the main point.
In others words. Shut up
M2K, question for you. What's your record against Rich?
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
@ Alpha Zealot: Yeah we should have pictochat and Bridge of Eldin for Diddy and D3. Then if they win a lot we will say ' Yeah see! we have to take these stages away and make the characters WORSE so they can fit into our rule set'
What you are saying is idiotic.
What you are saying is idiotic.