A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

[Spelt]

I've literally never said that about anything else before, lol. And I dont really keep up with threads, I just post from the most recent stuff or if someone quotes me.

If i cared enough I'd find your posts in the mk ban thread saying the same thing.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

People, 20% of the community uses MK, not 11%.

The 11% value I came up with at first was a miscalculation.

If I quote this, maybe the number will be correct in conversation... :-p

 

[Conviction]

Yeah, Tuen's post doesnt put the information into context. Sort of interesting though, and interesting theory.

I've literally never said that about anything else before, lol. And I dont really keep up with threads, I just post from the most recent stuff or if someone quotes me.

In Spelt's defense. In my lurking I've seen you said something to that effect before already.

Why would you ever use money won to ban a character? Would you ban Snake for winning a one million dollar tournament?

Jebus...

Jebus...

Jebus...

Jebus...

You are one to talk. You want to use an outlier/extreme example to try and point out a fallacy in my argument when you are the main to use outliers/extremes to solidify your position.

So no I wouldn't because it's an one tourney outlier. I think you would though

 

[.AC.]

Choose one

1) 11% is a lot
2) 11% isn't a lot

because what I'm getting right is.

1) 11% Isn't overcentralization.
2) Even though this 11% is winning a lot of money it's due to the overcentralization popularity contest.

i never stated that and of course the most popular character is usually going to win most of the money, but whether he gets in to the money or not is dependent on player skill, something which isn't being discussed right now.

11% or 20% it doesn't really matter, neither is even close to what would rationally be deemed overcentralization

 

[Mew2King]

btw LOL @ TKD, that is true though. A lot of CPing is just being able to 0-death a character. I don't even see how that would make the game entertaining, which is one of their biggest arguments, since that's what a lot of it would turn into, besides Diddys that hide behind bananas or olimars that camp pikmin and snakes that camp grenades. A lot of it is a lame CG fest for counterpicks. I'm not really gonna use that as an argument though, I just thought it was funny you said that.

 

[John12346]

@john12346: LOL how about you put the money earned by M2K TYRANT ANTI AND ALLY plz thank u! The ratio I asked for would be nice as well Mr. Rock the world.

Mew2King - $8484.77 - 17.04% of the money MK has won for players
Ally - $8048.58 - 16.19% of the money MK has won for players
ANTi - $2422.5 - 4.87% of the money MK has won for players
Seibrik - $1562.4 - 3.14% of the money MK has won for players
HolyNightmare - $1434 - 2.88% of the money MK has won for players
Lain - $1358.3 - 2.73% of the money MK has won for players
Tyrant - $1221.28 - 2.45% of the money MK has won for players

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Mew2King $8484.77 17.04468319% of the money MK has won
Ally $8048.58 16.16844019% of the money MK has won
ANTi $2422.5 4.86645425% of the money MK has won
Seibrik $1562.4 3.138636995% of the money MK has won
HolyNightmare $1434 2.880699853% of the money MK has won
Lain $1358.3 2.728629436% of the money MK has won
Tyrant $1221.28 2.453375953% of the money MK has won

Perfect. Did you take out the money that Ally made for MK when you took away his winnings for Snake? Same with Lain's ICs?

 

[Player-1]

just an FYI TKD, ICs beat Diddy and Diddy goes even with marth.

20% if overcentralizing when there's 36 more characters in the game and then when you look at high level of play (assuming top 100 on Rajam's chart is 'high level') 31% 'main' (listed in C1 column) MK (and this is WITHOUT having the secondaries).

 

[Cassio]

7 players win roughly half of MKs money? God dang

 

[TKD]

Seibrik has won more than Tyrant LOLOL...it's not so much about skill, as it is about dedication. And M2K/ALLY/ANTI have attended more tournaments than ANYONE ELSE. Doesn't that count for something?

My argument to ban MK was that everyone has to play him. But if he's banned, everyone has to play Snake/Diddy in Singles, and half the players will have to play whoever becomes the best in doubles (although there may be 2 of those also). The more competitive players will have to play one extra char in singles, one extra char in doubles. If they main another char, that's a minimum of 3 characters. That's just too much, you'd have to play as much as M2K/ALLY/ANTI to do as well as you want...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Seibrik has won more than Tyrant LOLOL...it's not so much about skill, as it is about dedication. And M2K/ALLY/ANTI have attended more tournaments than ANYONE ELSE. Doesn't that count for something?

Or higher entry fees. West coast usually charges less than everyone else

 

[Mew2King]

Dude, me and ally and anti are prolly the best players in the world overall. I come from a strong melee background and have GREAT understanding of smash in general, and went as far as to take off 2 years of college just to perfect my skills. TWO YEARS

Ally has won with MANY characters, including winning many nationals as snake, and is the best in the world with a LOT of characers

Anti is the best with A LOT of characters also

same with Tyrant, he is the best OVERALL player on WC that has won their last MK banned tourney as well.

Seibrik has his moments, but he's mostly about memorizing people's styles. This is why he beats people in FL all the time, but last Ktar he got like 33rd or 49th. His skill is mostly based around memorization, so he keeps beating locals but does worse vs OOR (exception is pound5).

 

[Spelt]

7 players win roughly half of MKs money? God dang

Most characters probably only have 2-3 players winning the large majority of their money.

 

[Mekos]

maybe because it's dumb to ban perfectly fine stages because of a single character, this has been stated many times as well and it baffles me how people still don't get this.

How is rainbow cruise and brinstar perfect fine. We all know rainbow cruise is your fav map but stop showing how biased you are lol. Anyone can tell those stages aren't perfectly fine as u say. And u and AZ keep blaming everything on mk. That is so lame. Many characters can abuse stages not just mk. Wth. Stop saying rules are altered soley because of mk. That is not true and u all who keep saying that constantly wont make it true.

 

[Cassio]

yup, people want those changes regardless of MK.

 

[John12346]

About that ratio thing I just posted,

Mew2King - $8484.77 - 17.04% of the money MK has won for players
Ally - $8048.58 - 16.19% of the money MK has won for players
ANTi - $2422.5 - 4.87% of the money MK has won for players
Seibrik - $1562.4 - 3.14% of the money MK has won for players
HolyNightmare - $1434 - 2.88% of the money MK has won for players
Lain - $1358.3 - 2.73% of the money MK has won for players
Tyrant - $1221.28 - 2.45% of the money MK has won for players

Compare to:

ADHD - $2655.68 - 25.02% of the money Diddy has won for players
Gnes - $2117.3 - 19.95% of the money Diddy has won for players
ANTi - $869.1 - 8.19% of the money Diddy has won for players
BigLou - $599.4 - 5.65% of the money Diddy has won for players

Ally - $7173.08 - 37.10% of the money Snake has won for players
UltimateRazer - $2482.75 - 12.84% of the money Snake has won for players
Fatal - $1602.95 - 8.29% of the money Snake has won for players
DarkLink - $902.6 - 4.67% of the money Snake has won for players

For most top tier characters, a large portion of the money has been won by Ally, btw. That's defo. an outlier case if I've ever heard it.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Or higher entry fees. West coast usually charges less than everyone else

There's an inherent issue with this... and it relates to the young/poor audience argument. Higher fees will scare away some percentage of the players... an effect we are trying to avoid.

 

[Conviction]

For clarification Jebus.

Why would you ever ban a character for winning more money than any other character? Would you ban Snake for winning a one million dollar tournament?

Jebus...

Jebus...

Jebus...

Jebus...

You are one to talk. You want to use an outlier/extreme example to try and point out a fallacy in my argument when you are the main to use outliers/extremes to solidify your position.

But no one can ever explain why no other countries have a problem with MK (other than they play with honor) and why our best MK didn't win our first international tournament.

have a problem with MK (other than they play with honor) and why our best MK didn't win our first international tournament.

and why our best MK didn't win our first international tournament.

MK didn't win our first international tournament.

our first international tournament.

first international tournament.

first

international

i never stated that and of course the most popular character is usually going to win most of the money, but whether he gets in to the money or not is dependent on player skill, something which isn't being discussed right now.

11% or 20% it doesn't really matter, neither is even close to what would rationally be deemed overcentralization

I wasn't accusing you, I was stating in general. Don't act victimized.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

About that ratio thing I just posted,

Mew2King - $8484.77 - 17.04% of the money MK has won for players
Ally - $8048.58 - 16.19% of the money MK has won for players
ANTi - $2422.5 - 4.87% of the money MK has won for players
Seibrik - $1562.4 - 3.14% of the money MK has won for players
HolyNightmare - $1434 - 2.88% of the money MK has won for players
Lain - $1358.3 - 2.73% of the money MK has won for players
Tyrant - $1221.28 - 2.45% of the money MK has won for players

Compare to:

ADHD - $2655.68 - 25.02% of the money Diddy has won for players
Gnes - $2117.3 - 19.95% of the money Diddy has won for players
ANTi - $869.1 - 8.19% of the money Diddy has won for players
BigLou - $599.4 - 5.65% of the money Diddy has won for players

Ally - $7173.08 - 37.10% of the money Snake has won for players
UltimateRazer - $2482.75 - 12.84% of the money Snake has won for players
Fatal - $1602.95 - 8.29% of the money Snake has won for players
DarkLink - $902.6 - 4.67% of the money Snake has won for players

For most top tier characters, a large portion of the money has been won by Ally, btw. That's defo. an outlier case if I've ever heard it.

All this shows is that there are more top MK players than top players for any other character and that's understandable. He is the best character

 

[TKD]

Perfectly fine stages...?

Rainbow has too much luck factor. I play Fox and have an extremely bad time just because floating structures at the bottom parts blocks upward KOs. If I use an upward KO move near a wall, it won't work either.

Also, there's a glitch with the donuts where you fall through them, and trap you as they fall. It's not as easy as avoiding them (which can happen easily because they cover a lot of space), you may grab someone or be grabbed near them and die because of it. Rainbow Cruise leaves too little room to play unless you're MK...it's unfair to EVERY OTHER CHAR...and even MK in dittos: some KOs will be blocked, others no; and all of this just because of the stage.

Brinstar isn't as bad as Rainbow Cruise, as horrible as Rainbow sounds. Most chars just don't function in Brinstar, while only a couple of those 32 (without even counting MK), actually excel there.

MK or no MK those stages will be banned in my area. They just don't work competitively IMO.

 

[Ripple]

RC should be perfectly fine. its on a 1:30 timer. easy to follow and despite the stage favoring aerial characters, half the stage prevents gimps from happening

 

[Player-1]

Perfectly fine stages...?

Rainbow has too much luck factor. I play Fox and have an extremely bad time just because floating structures at the bottom parts blocks upward KOs. If I use an upward KO move near a wall, it won't work either.

Also, there's a glitch with the donuts where you fall through them, and trap you as they fall. It's not as easy as avoiding them (which can happen easily because they cover a lot of space), you may grab someone or be grabbed near them and die because of it. Rainbow Cruise leaves too little room to play unless you're MK...it's unfair to EVERY OTHER CHAR...and even MK in dittos: some KOs will be blocked, others no; and all of this just because of the stage.

Brinstar isn't as bad as Rainbow Cruise, as horrible as Rainbow sounds. Most chars just don't function in Brinstar, while only a couple of those 32 (without even counting MK), actually excel there.

MK or no MK those stages will be banned in my area. They just don't work competitively IMO.

Uhhhhh....what? You DO realize everything in RC is non random...right? There's a glitch on PS1 where you fall through the stage upon transformation....ban PS1 right?

Leaves too little room to play...?What? I really don't even understand any of these other arguments. KOs being blocked? You mean by doughnut blocks and walls? Learn the stage, PS1 has windmills.

YI involves too much luck because of ghost platforms saving people...too much luck right? Ban YI?

edit: Ripple it's on a 2 minute timer :3

 

[TKD]

RC actually blocks KOs consistently. You just haven't played enough on it maybe. The ship section has a floating structure where you won't KO depending on the moves you use and the DI your opponent uses.

Decisive KO actions can mean a wasted read and a decayed KO move. In both bottom parts (at the ship and to the left) I've had and seen KOs blocked in almost every RC match. It's just too much, even in close MK ditto matches.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Characters can plank on the boat and run away on the moving stage

 

[Conviction]

When it comes to rainbow cruise I think P-1 knows that most.

I still remember that Fox stalling tatic you showed me on there Hunter.

 

[Mekos]

player 1 is the most frustrating guy to argue with or try and get a point across. He always nick pic peoples points instead of trying to understand their overall point and then bring about small examples of something else to rebuttal the statement. Or u just troll them lol.

Cmon the windmill on ps1. really?

 

[Ripple]

RC actually blocks KOs consistently. You just haven't played enough on it maybe. The ship section has a floating structure where you won't KO depending on the moves you use and the DI your opponent uses.

Decisive KO actions can mean a wasted read and a decayed KO move. In both bottom parts (at the ship and to the left) I've had and seen KOs blocked in almost every RC match. It's just too much, even in close MK ditto matches.

I CP MK's on RC and I win. I don't get blocked on kills because I know the stage.

I have a game with hylian at a recent tournament.

also, I like the fact that anti bans say "learn the match up" yet refuse to listen to "learn the stage"

Characters can plank on the boat and run away on the moving stage

the boat? you mean the 25 seconds players are there? get real

 

[TKD]

Specially against chars that control the flow of the match, you can't choose when you'll fight them. When they do decide it's time to fight and you land a KO move, it can fail depending on DI and the unseen structure's position.

It's not random but how the match goes and how players DI and where everything is at each second of the match has many variables

 

[Conviction]

Jebus is the most frustrating guy to argue with or try and get a point across. He always nick pic peoples points instead of trying to understand their overall point and then bring about small examples of something else to rebuttal the statement. Or u just troll them lol.

Spelled the name wrong.

 

[Player-1]

RC actually blocks KOs consistently. You just haven't played enough on it maybe. The ship section has a floating structure where you won't KO depending on the moves you use and the DI your opponent uses.

Decisive KO actions can mean a wasted read and a decayed KO move. In both bottom parts (at the ship and to the left) I've had and seen KOs blocked in almost every RC match. It's just too much, even in close MK ditto matches.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I can safely say I've played RC more than 99% of the community at least as it is my favorite stage. My friend comes over and we will play RC only for like an hour or two straight 4 times a week at least.

I know where the ship has floating structures. at (odd number):48 it's the 2 doughnut blocks from the top are directly above the boat's flag pole. Learn the stage bro. If they're good enough to DI into something then good for them they deserved to live. If they just lucky they DIed into well then that's luck based on the player, not the stage


edit: and the pendulum tetris blocks are available to reach from the ship when you see the first fourth of the rainbow approximately.

 

[Mekos]

lolol that is terrible haha. But Player-1 didn't even state why brinstar is perfectly fine. But it's not that serious for me to lose sleep over. I got class tomorrow. Gnight fellow smashers

 

[TKD]

Ripple, the consistency with which RC affects you depends on your char. MK's upb and Fox's usmash get blocked frequently while your char's moves may not be as affected by the luck factor.

 

[Conviction]

TKD: If people are DI'ing so they hit a ceiling to survive I'm pretty that's stage knowledge, not luck.

 

[Player-1]

lolol that is terrible haha. But Player-1 didn't even state why brinstar is perfectly fine. But it's not that serious for me to lose sleep over. I got class tomorrow. Gnight fellow smashers

I never said Brinstar is a perfectly fine stage, I'm personally very borderline on it.

Ripple, the consistency with which RC affects you depends on your char. MK's upb and Fox's usmash get blocked frequently while your char's moves may not be as affected by the luck factor.

Oh know you character gets a disadvantage on it....oh wait I forgot that's the point of a CP stage. Let's ban Halberd because it enhances Fox's usmash and MKs up-b right?

 

[Mew2King]

I want a few stages banned mostly cuz of MK, but its mainly just RC and Brinstar

i hate that pro ban says ban the character INSTEAD of the stage, like wtf

 

[Ripple]

ITT: stages that are static and have no hazards now reward players by luck because some characters do better than others

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The moving parts of the stage make it so that characters that are moving from left to right move slower in the air than characters moving from right to left. This can affect people's spacing. It is also the reason why DDD has more Wall-less infinites on this stage. The stage also puts characters in many recovery like situations and favors the player who can jump to the next part of the stage first.

 

[TKD]

Halberd's effect on decisive connected moves doesn't vary. The ceiling is just low, it won't block KOs ever. If a stage did block them, but did so consistently (instead of inconsistently like RC), it'd be a different story.

 

[Player-1]

player 1 is the most frustrating guy to argue with or try and get a point across. He always nick pic peoples points instead of trying to understand their overall point and then bring about small examples of something else to rebuttal the statement. Or u just troll them lol.

Cmon the windmill on ps1. really?

uhhh what? I'm using the same logic TKD is using. RC blocks KOs? so does PS1. It's not nit picking, Mekos, you seriously have no idea how to argue.

 

[Player-1]

Halberd's effect on decisive connected moves doesn't vary. The ceiling is just low, it won't block KOs ever. If it did block them, but did so consistently, it'd be a different story.

I never said it doesn't. You say RC stuff nerfs fox's usmash, I say halberd's ceilings enhance it. Same logic.