A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

[Ripple]

Halberd's effect on decisive connected moves doesn't vary. The ceiling is just low, it won't block KOs ever. If a stage did block them, but did so consistently (instead of inconsistently like RC), it'd be a different story.

YI can help those who have certainly died.

ban YI?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Halberd's effect on decisive connected moves doesn't vary. The ceiling is just low, it won't block KOs ever. If a stage did block them, but did so consistently (instead of inconsistently like RC), it'd be a different story.

So you agree with stages that exhibit consistent behavior?

The mechanics of RC may not be fully understood (stage fallthroughs), but the ability for it to block KO's is consistent. The stage rotation never changes.

 

[TKD]

How about we keep both MK and RC if it's such a good stage against him

 

[Player-1]

no one ever said RC is a good stage against him.

 

[TKD]

Ripple implied it. That's half the people supporting the stage in this thread

 

[Player-1]

I don't see how Ripple implied it...

and MK has more problems with him than just being good on a single stage.

 

[Ripple]

I support RC.

IMO (of course)

I love taking MKs there

 

[.AC.]

no one ever said RC is a good stage against him.

just because nobody said it doesn't mean it's not true

 

[Cassio]

fyi on the poll at e4 champ over 75% of people wanted rainbow cruise banned, regardless of MKs existence or other ruleset changes.

 

[Player-1]

just because nobody said it doesn't mean it's not true

ok...but that's not the point....



We should also ban teching since that blocks KOs that someone made a good read to get right?

 

[.AC.]

ok...but that's not the point....



We should also ban teching since that blocks KOs that someone made a good read to get right?

well i never said it was the point

 

[Ripple]

fyi on the poll at e4 champ over 75% of people wanted rainbow cruise banned, regardless of MKs existence or other ruleset changes.

I have a feeling that well over 50% of the entire community wants RC banned

 

[Mew2King]

I posted this in another thread, but I would like to repost it here for emphasis.

There were about ~6-8 stages BANNED BECAUSE OF FOX in Melee.

-Peach's Castle I ***** Chu Dat in tournament here, badly, back when he was better than me on other stages. The ceiling is too small and you could get the lead and Bair camp on the other side of the wall, which is what I did to ChuDat back at *pound* 1

-Onett Fox was just really good here. Wall infinites or just running away in general.

-Great Bay Very, very easy to laser camp with full jump and shoot 3 lasers from either the left or right side of the stage, and Forward B to the other side whenever they get near him. He can also Bair camp here effectively on the left or right side of the stage and always force approaches unless he does not have the stock lead.

-Corneria Very small ceiling and Bair camping on the wing, but the ceiling was the main reason.

-Mushroom Kingdom 2 I played Bum in tournament here actually, Fox vs DK, and I just waveshined him off the stage to kill him and forward Bd across the different ledges. There is no video but it definitely happened. This was during Gauntlet (late 2005 I believe?)

-Poke Floats - Fox was very good at running away on this stage, more than any other character. Also VERY low ceiling.

-Green Greens - Really low ceiling, and very easy to just laser camp. See video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMXruBycZiU

-Yoshi's Island - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M

Compared to this, I want TWO stages removed in Brawl, because I think they are dumb (and Brinstar is pseudo-luck based unless you memorized every lava combination), Brinstar and Rainbow. And also, I think they should go regardless of MK, but with MK they should DEFINITELY go.

Btw, I have played on 7 of those 8 stages in tournament before, and they are BROKEN for Fox. All of them. Yoshi's Island is the only one I haven't, but it was apparently a long time ago on WC or midwest because of the tournament video I linked.

 

[Ripple]

stuff.

who says what they did was good? why should we follow what melee does?

 

[Mew2King]

Point is, banning 2 stages because of a character is nothing, but I've read COUNTLESS times from various pro-ban people that "we should ban the character because of the stage". That's incredibly stupid, especially when they are lame stages to begin with. I think they are banned in the melee back room's new ruleset anyway (I don't keep track, but I know it changes from tournament to tournament with RC and Brinstar legal and banned in melee).

..... @ if they are good. You should go to more tournaments and see the impact it has. A top tier should not become MUCH STRONGER because of a stage. You might as well put back on Bridge of Elden in Brawl then, so DDD can auto-win vs any character he can chain grab with NO effort.

 

[Player-1]

I posted this in another thread, but I would like to repost it here for emphasis.

There were about ~6-8 stages BANNED BECAUSE OF FOX in Melee.

-Peach's Castle I ***** Chu Dat in tournament here, badly, back when he was better than me on other stages. The ceiling is too small and you could get the lead and Bair camp on the other side of the wall, which is what I did to ChuDat back at *pound* 1

-Onett Fox was just really good here. Wall infinites or just running away in general.

-Great Bay Very, very easy to laser camp with full jump and shoot 3 lasers from either the left or right side of the stage, and Forward B to the other side whenever they get near him. He can also Bair camp here effectively on the left or right side of the stage and always force approaches unless he does not have the stock lead.

-Corneria Very small ceiling and Bair camping on the wing, but the ceiling was the main reason.

-Mushroom Kingdom 2 I played Bum in tournament here actually, Fox vs DK, and I just waveshined him off the stage to kill him and forward Bd across the different ledges. There is no video but it definitely happened. This was during Gauntlet (late 2005 I believe?)

-Poke Floats - Fox was very good at running away on this stage, more than any other character. Also VERY low ceiling.

-Green Greens - Really low ceiling, and very easy to just laser camp. See video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMXruBycZiU

-Yoshi's Island - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M

Compared to this, I want TWO stages removed in Brawl, because I think they are dumb (and Brinstar is pseudo-luck based unless you memorized every lava combination), Brinstar and Rainbow. And also, I think they should go regardless of MK, but with MK they should DEFINITELY go.

Btw, I have played on 7 of those 8 stages in tournament before, and they are BROKEN for Fox. All of them. Yoshi's Island is the only one I haven't, but it was apparently a long time ago on WC or midwest because of the tournament video I linked.

like ripple said, we aren't the melee community. Furthermore, I HIGHLY doubt all of these things are based solely because of Fox. Great Bay for instances you listed lasering and running away...that's circle camping. Falco could do it also. Highly effective circle camping is bannable criteria like hyrule temple, new pork city, and to an extent Bridge of Eldin

 

[Mew2King]

Falco was not as good at it as Fox. Fox is better on all of these stages than Falco, except MAYBE Peach's castle because of double shines off the top. So 7/8 or 8/8. This is coming from someone who thinks Falco is the best in the game with the current ruleset.

 

[Player-1]

Point is, banning 2 stages because of a character is nothing, but I've read COUNTLESS times from various pro-ban people that "we should ban the character because of the stage". That's incredibly stupid, especially when they are lame stages to begin with. I think they are banned in the melee back room's new ruleset anyway (I don't keep track, but I know it changes from tournament to tournament with RC and Brinstar legal and banned in melee).

I loved the irony here.


"Yeah guys, RC and Brinstar are lame, let's ban them cuz they're so lame, amirite?"


Post summary:

Pro ban point is stupid because it is, no further explanation needed.

Ban these stages cuz they're lame and banned in melee.

 

[Mew2King]

Wow way to dodge like every point and nitpick at details I said.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The moving parts of the stage make it so that characters that are moving from left to right move slower in the air than characters moving from right to left. This can affect people's spacing. It is also the reason why DDD has more Wall-less infinites on this stage. The stage also puts characters in many recovery like situations and favors the player who can jump to the next part of the stage first.

 

[Player-1]

Falco was not as good at it as Fox. Fox is better on all of these stages than Falco, except MAYBE Peach's castle because of double shines off the top. So 7/8 or 8/8. This is coming from someone who thinks Falco is the best in the game with the current ruleset.

No, but say you ban Fox and then Falco could still do it. Ban a stage because of two characters? Okay now we're getting somewhere.

 

[Mew2King]

A TOP TIER should not become MUCH STRONGER because of a stage, PERIOD. Especially when it comes down to deciding Ban the stage or ban the character. There should not be nearly auto-wins for already amazing characters. In no way is this good, at all.

if falco and fox have AUTO wins on a stage, that's REALLY dumb. The stage should be banned if that is the case (And I am pushing for them to be banned in melee).

 

[Player-1]

Wow way to dodge like every point and nitpick at details I said.

What points did you have? That the stages were lame? That's all I got from it. There wasn't any detail in that post to begin with, it was just a bad post.

The moving parts of the stage make it so that characters that are moving from left to right move slower in the air than characters moving from right to left. This can affect people's spacing. It is also the reason why DDD has more Wall-less infinites on this stage. The stage also puts characters in many recovery like situations and favors the player who can jump to the next part of the stage first.

Those affects are constant, there's no reason it can mess someone's spacing up if they're actually utilizing and accounting the stage properly. PS1's windmill affects spacing, let's ban PS1

 

[Ripple]

A TOP TIER should not become MUCH STRONGER because of a stage, PERIOD. Especially when it comes down to deciding Ban the stage or ban the character. There should not be nearly auto-wins for already amazing characters. In no way is this good, at all.

so we should all play on flat stages that don't favor aerial characters so ground based characters become so much better.

regardless of what you ban, one of the top tiers is getting better

 

[Player-1]

A TOP TIER should not become MUCH STRONGER because of a stage, PERIOD. Especially when it comes down to deciding Ban the stage or ban the character. There should not be nearly auto-wins for already amazing characters. In no way is this good, at all.

if falco and fox have AUTO wins on a stage, that's REALLY dumb. The stage should be banned if that is the case (And I am pushing for them to be banned in melee).

I guess we should ban FD since ICs get much stronger there too.

MK doesn't have an auto win on RC and not even close to it.

 

[Mew2King]

ICs are amazingly good on FD and probably have the advantage over every character there, but it's not comparable AT ALL to the insane advantage that MK has on Rainbow and brinstar. With the current stagelist, there is NO REASON to NOT have a pocket MK for those stages. MikeHaze in fact picked up MK BECAUSE of the current ruleset.

I do think MK has a very easy time on RC more than ICs or any other character has on a neutral btw. I would love for you to try to prove me wrong. The only person that's EVER been able to beat me on RC in the past 2 years or so that I can remember is Vinnie, and he's very well known on EC for counterpicking that stage and being a master at it in general.

 

[ElDominio]

Difference
Two characters > one stage
one character < two stages

See?

**EDIT**

My post number is the same as my area code 0_0

 

[Ripple]

ICs are amazingly good on FD and probably have the advantage over every character there, but it's not comparable AT ALL to the insane advantage that MK has on Rainbow and brinstar. With the current stagelist, there is NO REASON to NOT have a pocket MK for those stages. MikeHaze in fact picked up MK BECAUSE of the current ruleset.

"they have an advantage on everyone there"

"that's not as extreme as MK having an advantage on every character on RC"

contradiction M2K

 

[Player-1]

Sounds like a problem with MK, not the stage. I don't see why the other 35 characters should lose stage depth just because MK is good on them (and on RC at least, not even completely and totally broken. Esam told me himself he likes playing Pika Vs MK here actually).

 

[Dr. Tuen]

What points did you have? That the stages were lame? That's all I got from it. There wasn't any detail in that post to begin with, it was just a bad post.

Are you talking about the color-coded melee stage post? I think you missed the point too, actually. He described the parts of each stage that warranted a ban with respect to Fox. He's drawing an analogy between the large interaction effect one character can have on a stage list in a game similar to ours to the game we have now... in which one character can have a large interaction effect on the stage list... if we let it.

It's also disappointing to see you discuss the point with him in such an abrasive manner too. There's no point in rough or rude behavior. It just leads to more insults, satirical summaries, and circular arguments.

===

My two cents on the stage list is this:

I'm neutral for RC. It moves and that's frustrating sometimes for people with tether recoveries (ZSS...), but it is consistent and can be banned by the player in question.

I really dislike brinstar. It has an essentially random game-changing effect (I say game-changing because in 90% of matches or more, Halberd doesn't actually end up interacting significantly with players). The acid can rise randomly, rise to random heights, and force gameplay to a platform that's three body lengths across. :-/.

 

[Mew2King]

No, I don't see, especially when they are the best characters in their respective games.

There is a difference between having an advantage and having a MASSIVE, HUGE ADVANTAGE, so much to the point that there's almost no reason to NOT pick up said character because of that stage.

A super top tier like fox and falco should not gain MASSIVE ADVANTAGES to the point that they are nearly unbeatable, thanks to a ridiculous stage helping them out.

If you can't understand that point, which I'm sure many of the other people here (if they are SMART) can understand, then I give up this argument. In a way I think you guys are continuing this to distract from every other point that was made in this thread so people forget about them, so I won't respond to any more of this related stuff. I already know you guys like to do that a lot.

 

[Player-1]

Are you talking about the color-coded melee stage post? I think you missed the point too, actually. He described the parts of each stage that warranted a ban with respect to Fox. He's drawing an analogy between the large interaction effect one character can have on a stage list in a game similar to ours to the game we have now... in which one character can have a large interaction effect on the stage list... if we let it.

It's also disappointing to see you discuss the point with him in such an abrasive manner too. There's no point in rough or rude behavior. It just leads to more insults, satirical summaries, and circular arguments.

===

My two cents on the stage list is this:

I'm neutral for RC. It moves and that's frustrating sometimes for people with tether recoveries (ZSS...), but it is consistent and can be banned by the player in question.

I really dislike brinstar. It has an essentially random game-changing effect (I say game-changing because in 90% of matches or more, Halberd doesn't actually end up interacting significantly with players). The acid can rise randomly, rise to random heights, and force gameplay to a platform that's three body lengths across. :-/.

No I wasn't talking about the color coded posted, because that was actually a fairly good post aside from the fact that it's melee and we're not the melee community. I was talking about this post:

Point is, banning 2 stages because of a character is nothing, but I've read COUNTLESS times from various pro-ban people that "we should ban the character because of the stage". That's incredibly stupid, especially when they are lame stages to begin with. I think they are banned in the melee back room's new ruleset anyway (I don't keep track, but I know it changes from tournament to tournament with RC and Brinstar legal and banned in melee).

Which was a bad post. I don't really care if I sound rude calling the post bad because I'm just telling it as it is.

 

[*Tyson*]

MK isn't broken. Sure he is really hard to deal with at times. But there have been far too many people go toe to toe with him with their respective characters. Proving time and time again it's really not that bad.

He is the best character in the game, but ban him?? haha that's laughable

 

[Ripple]

M2K, challenging people to play you on RC is ********.

I challenge MKs that are on my level and beat them. of course only like 3 people can beat you. those are the only people on your level

 

[Player-1]

No, I don't see, especially when they are the best characters in their respective games.

There is a difference between having an advantage and having a MASSIVE, HUGE ADVANTAGE, so much to the point that there's almost no reason to NOT pick up said character because of that stage.

A super top tier like fox and falco should not gain MASSIVE ADVANTAGES to the point that they are nearly unbeatable, thanks to a ridiculous stage helping them out.

If you can't understand that point, which I'm sure many of the other people here (if they are SMART) can understand, then I give up this argument. In a way I think you guys are continuing this to distract from every other point that was made in this thread so people forget about them, so I won't respond to any more of this related stuff. I already know you guys like to do that a lot.

I do understand the point, and like I said Fox and Falco are two independent character who are breaking a stage unlike MK who is only one and who is not even breaking the stage (RC with MK is definitely not an autowin) having two characters break the stage might warrant a ban for a stage...IDK and I really don't care since that's not the topic at hand because we don't have to deal with two characters breaking any of the current legal stages. I have no idea how we would be distracting from every other point that is made in this thread, maybe you should try pointing it out to us instead of just stating that we are?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

No I wasn't talking about the color coded posted, because that was actually a fairly good post aside from the fact that it's melee and we're not the melee community. I was talking about this post:



Which was a bad post. I don't really care if I sound rude calling the post bad because I'm just telling it as it is.

So he's saying that people utilized the stages as evidence for the MK ban without considering a rule set adjustment which would see those problem stages banned.

That's a fair argument. I would have liked to see Brinstar and maaaaybe RC banned nation-wide before this decision was struck.

A hostile post gets a hostile response. This is a cyclic pattern that will not improve the quality of this conversation. Though I can't really stop you from responding as you'd like to. That and the comment wasn't just directed at you. Or at least, I should have made that more apparent.

 

[Player-1]

So he's saying that people utilized the stages as evidence for the MK ban without considering a rule set adjustment which would see those problem stages banned.

That's a fair argument. I would have liked to see Brinstar and maaaaybe RC banned nation-wide before this decision was struck.

A hostile post gets a hostile response. This is a cyclic pattern that will not improve the quality of this conversation. Though I can't really stop you from responding as you'd like to. That and the comment wasn't just directed at you. Or at least, I should have made that more apparent.

The point is valid, but the explanations he gave were not: a stage being "lame" or stages being banned in melee are not very good explanations (or points to the points if you will).

 

[Dr. Tuen]

The point is valid, but the explanations he gave were not: a stage being "lame" or stages being banned in melee are not very good explanations (or points to the points if you will).

But he was simply linking that statement to the colorful post before it.

I do understand the point, and like I said Fox and Falco are two independent character who are breaking a stage unlike MK who is only one and who is not even breaking the stage (RC with MK is definitely not an autowin) having two characters break the stage might warrant a ban for a stage...IDK and I really don't care since that's not the topic at hand because we don't have to deal with two characters breaking any of the current legal stages. I have no idea how we would be distracting from every other point that is made in this thread, maybe you should try pointing it out to us instead of just stating that we are?

So you think that there's a big difference between two characters breaking a stage and one character breaking a stage?

2 characters in Melee (26 characters)= 7.7% of the cast

1 character in Brawl (35 characters)= 2.8% of the cast

 

[Cassio]

Correction on my last post. Over 3/4 wanted brinstar banned, over 2/3rds wanted rainbow cruise banned. Thats, once again, without consideration of MK being banned or other ruleset changes.

The bigger point is that people dont like these stages regardless of MK. Therefore its really no surprise youd see people CP the strongest character there or even pick him up as a secondary just for the levels, and then play as gay as possible.

 

[Ripple]

Correction on my last post. Over 3/4 wanted brinstar banned, over 2/3rds wanted rainbow cruise banned. Thats, once again, without consideration of MK being banned or other ruleset changes.

The bigger point is that people dont like these stages regardless of MK. Therefore its really no surprise youd see people CP the strongest character there or even pick him up as a secondary just for the levels.

how often have these people even played on RC or brinstar without the threat of MK?

it could make a difference.

I KNOW lots of people just want those stages banned because they get blown up on it by MK so they think the stage is bad overall.