A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Blistering Speed]

Double post, ignore.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Sheik's 50:50, Zelda's 60:40.

The guy who said that thing about F Tilt lock is even more ******** then the implicated statement because unless the F Tilt's decayed with the appropriate percent to coincide then Bowser can Fortress out (frame one invinciblity FTW).

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Well we did post in both the Zelda and the Sheik MU threads, so it's not to blame on us. We just didn't make a thread about it cause they're forbidden nowadays.

I never meant to blame anyone, sorry if it sounded like that. I simply expressed one possible reason for the lack of Zeldas/Sheiks.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well we did post in both the Zelda and the Sheik MU threads, so it's not to blame on us. We just didn't make a thread about it cause they're forbidden nowadays.

it'd help if we had an "anouncements" column running down the margin of the page so you could post a shout about it there, but, w/e.

Sheik does fine against bowser on her own. 50:50 or some variety of 55:45, does that matter?

Zelda does well enough to be 60:40 on her own and is no worse with sheik, but probably not better than 35:65 WITH sheik... so no matter what it's still only a soft counter type matchup.

 

[MrEh]

Has that changed or are you basing this off of other sheiks?

There's a fellow over here that uses the Zelda/Sheik combo. He plays with me and DM on a regular basis, and I can vouch that he's a good player. A regular tournament goer who places well.

Zelda does well enough to be 60:40 on her own and is no worse with sheik, but probably not better than 35:65 WITH sheik... so no matter what it's still only a soft counter type matchup.

How does Sheik help at all? There's no real advantage to using her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There's a fellow over here that uses the Zelda/Sheik combo. He plays with me and DM on a regular basis, and I can vouch that he's a good player. A regular tournament goer who places well.



How does Sheik help at all? There's no real advantage to using her.

becuase sheik does well against bowser, the only reason that it's not in sheik's advantage is sheik's severely limited ability to KO bowser. Zelda removes that problem once she's brought out and sheik is so good at dealing damage that NORMALLY zelda will have a more favourable damage distribution and fresher moves when she's brought out than if she;d tried to go it all on her own. Maybe not a big advanatge, but an advantage nonetheless.

 

[MrEh]

Zelda removes that problem once she's brought out and sheik is so good at dealing damage that NORMALLY zelda will have a more favourable damage distribution and fresher moves when she's brought out than if she;d tried to go it all on her own. Maybe not a big advanatge, but an advantage nonetheless.

Zelda has way more options against Bowser against then Sheik does.

I agree that Sheik racks up damage faster then Zelda, but that point is moot when Sheik is going to take more damage from Bowser in the process of racking up damage then Zelda would.

 

[Red Arremer]

No. Sheik doesn't only have trouble KOing Bowser. She also has trouble against the Grab Release (which Zelda can get out of easier) and range problems, as Bowser outranges her in pretty much every way.

 

[MrEh]

and range problems, as Bowser outranges her in pretty much every way.

Pretty much. Needles and chain aside, Bowser's ground game pretty much overpowers Sheik's. Air game is another story entirely though. ^^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No. Sheik doesn't only have trouble KOing Bowser. She also has trouble against the Grab Release (which Zelda can get out of easier) and range problems, as Bowser outranges her in pretty much every way.

but sheik pretty much always has these problems in comparison to Zelda and still manages to be the better one at damage wracking. Why should bowser be so special as to make that not the case?

sure, sheik isn't as EASY to play in the matchup as zelda. you have to be a lot more careful and a lot pokier, but it's definitely doable.

Just force an approach with needles and exploit any opening to pop him up in the air *shrug*

 

[Red Arremer]

Yea, well... Except FAir and UAir, all moves of Bowser are shortranged, that is true. And the FAir doesn't have too much range either.

But still I doubt Sheik has an advantage overall, and I really doubt she will help Zelda a lot in getting a better matchup or position. Zelda has safer options for racking damage on Bowser. Sheik will most likely recieve more damage against him than Zelda would do alone, not to mention that she still has the problem of transforming midmatch, which can be punished if not done absolutely carefully.

If I may remind you of Bowser's killing power and Sheik and Zelda's weight...

 

[MrEh]

but sheik pretty much always has these problems in comparison to Zelda and still manages to be the better one at damage wracking. Why should bowser be so special as to make that not the case?

Because Bowser is effing heavy, and Zelda racks damage easier and safer on Bowser then Sheik does. Since Zelda's the one with all the killing power anyway, there's really no reason to use Sheik at all.

sure, sheik isn't as EASY to play in the matchup as zelda. you have to be a lot more careful and a lot pokier, but it's definitely doable.

Of course it's doable, but there's no reason to make the matchup harder for yourself by using Sheik. Just go Zelda and shut down a lot of Bowser's options instead of going Sheik and going even with him.

Just force an approach with needles and exploit any opening to pop him up in the air *shrug*

k

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

my best experiences against bowser involve a double assault. It's certainly no worse than zelda alone.

not to mention that she still has the problem of transforming midmatch, which can be punished if not done absolutely carefully.

seriously. it's not a problem. It bearly bears mentioning.

 

[Red Arremer]

my best experiences against bowser involve a double assault. It's certainly no worse than zelda alone.

How many good Bowsers have you played?

And no, it's not worse, that's not what we're saying... but it's certainly not much better, if at all, either. Either you have a less damaged Zelda with not as fresh kill moves or a more damaged Zelda with fresh killmoves. If I were in the position I would choose the less damage over the absolutely fresh killmoves.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...Either you have a less damaged Zelda with not as fresh kill moves or a more damaged Zelda with fresh killmoves...

the fresher kill moves are a definite.

the more or less damage is a toss-up. I like the risk myself. I don't think I ever claimed it was MUCH better did I?

 

[Red Arremer]

Well then that's your opinion, lol. I'd rather have a more likely victory over risking a loss for the sake of playing both. =P

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well then that's your opinion, lol. I'd rather have a more likely victory over risking a loss for the sake of playing both. =P

well a big thing for me personally is that some days, my sheik is just ON... and some days its not. A sheik with momentum is scary... but without momentum is just sad. Whether or not I use sheik in the matchup normally depends on how my day with sheik has been going, but, if it's been going well, I have better results than if I ignore her.

 

[B!squick]

Well, I'm going to end this discussion simply by saying we don't have a Sheik/Zelda slot. And there's no reason to mention that Shiek may switch to Zelda for fresh and powerful kill moves because that much would be really obvious. Though I guess we could mention it anyway. :/

Either way: 50/50 Shiek, 40/60 Zelda

 

[MrEh]

How many good Bowsers have you played?

This.

Spoiler

10this

 

[B!squick]

Well, I'm going to end this discussion simply by saying we don't have a Sheik/Zelda slot. And there's no reason to mention in the match up summary, if we ever get around to doing those, that Shiek may switch to Zelda for fresh and powerful kill moves because that much would be really obvious. Though I guess we could mention it anyway. :/

Either way: 50/50 Shiek, 40/60 Zelda

^I forgot the bold text. Are we just going to wait until we've done everyone to do the summaries?

 

[MrEh]

^I forgot the bold text. Are we just going to wait until we've done everyone to do the summaries?

Yeah, we're going to go through the numbers first.

 

[B!squick]

So are all 4 of us cool with 50/50 Shiek, 40/60 Zelda or what? O.o

 

[MrEh]

I'm just going to put down 40-60 for Zelda and be done with it.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

just a note, sideb is very useful against zelda, the crazy range on the aerial version helps a lot.

 

[MrEh]

just a note, sideb is very useful against zelda, the crazy range on the aerial version helps a lot.

I know that, I play with DM all the time. ^^

He probably hates the Klaw. lol

 

[JigglyZelda003]

hmmm i haven't played Bowser much but i think its 50:50.

Fox should just attempt a bit of camping to make Bowser come to him since going to Bowser is no fun at all. Fox can combo Bowser very easily, but is it possible to upB out? the last one i fought wasn't able to very well. it takes forever to kill Bowser though even w/ Usmash and gimping his isn't easy. then Bowser has grab release> Ftilt......

 

[Lightning93]

Here is the summary I wrote a while ago for this matchup, most of it is discussing what a Fox should do when facing Bowser, but it is also reflecting what each character has over the other. Feel free to disagree, or add on.

Bowser is a beast, quite literally. If you think you can approach, combo him to a good percentage, and then finish him, you're 2/3 wrong. Bowser is a very defensive character with amazing OoS options. This is an important match where you have to make sure not to telegraph ANYTHING. Telegraph your approach, risk getting shield grabbed and tilted in the face, or suffer a nice OoS Fortress. Telegraph your recovery, risk getting Flamed, getting hit by either an F-air or B-air, and if your "bold" enough, recover right into Bowser and risk getting hit by another OoS move. Bowser can also move surprisingly quick, so keep your head and don't let yourself be trapped by his girth. It is also his girth which makes it dangerous to approach, because wherever you do start your attack, Bowser will have himself covered if you fail. Wait for him to make a mistake or leave himself wide open, throwing out SHDL or SHTL in the meantime. However, like most heavy's you can combo him. Use those D-airs, grabs, jabs, shines, and F-airs, all moves that have great followups and/or little knockback, and you will do great damage. If you get him to the percentage you need to get the kill DO IT QUICK. Otherwise Bowser will reset his spacing, and since your only option is now to kill, he will make it nearly impossible for you to do so. You can try to gimp, but be mindful that it won't be as easy as you think, he has invincibility and great priority on his Fortress, and if you try to drill him from the front, you risked setting yourself up for a high-priority Klaw grab. Just remember to keep your Fox quick and fluid, and don't let yourself fall into many traps.

 

[Cassius.]

I've played alot of Foxes offline and on Wi-Fi, and I guess I can say that it's 50:50 IMO. Lightning stole everything I was going to say lol. I don't think anyone can dispute 50-50 lol.

 

[Red Arremer]

Here is the summary I wrote a while ago for this matchup, most of it is discussing what a Fox should do when facing Bowser, but it is also reflecting what each character has over the other. Feel free to disagree, or add on.

Finally someone who sees Bowser in the correct light! <3

Yes, you summarized the MU pretty well, but the lack of Bowser's grab options is disturbing. ;P

Bowser has, of course, the Klaw, and his Ground Grab Release, that Fox suffers a lot on. Other than that, a nice summary. I kinda agree with 50-50, but would want to wait on MrEh's input.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Would I be correct in assuming that Fire Breath can mess over Fox's recovery if he's forced to cover low? (as in, he can't shoot over the range with Phantom). Obviously it messes up Firefox fairly good, but how well does it mess up Phantom if he has to go for the ledge? I'm not thinking it would keep Fox from recovering or anything like that, but I can see it tacking on a nice amount of damage and giving Bowser a possible way to set up for an actual gimp.

 

[B!squick]

Firebreath screws all of the space animals royally. I think even at it's lowest it's inescapable unless they DI away.

 

[MrEh]

Fire will always beat Fox's side B. UpB can go through it somewhat though.

Either way, it limits recovery options.

 

[Cassius.]

So... 50-50...yes?

 

[MrEh]

Probably. When I talked about this a couple months ago, we pretty much decided on 50-50.

I'll leave this open a little longer though, in case anyone has anything to say.

 

[clowsui]

This.

Spoiler

10this

I'd argue that sniperworm isn't that great of a sheik >__>

spams roll + spotdodge WAY too much and makes some piss poor decisions at times

but i mean he's better than i am because he actually goes to tournies so i can't say anything LOL

continue w/ your fox discussion >_>

 

[Lightning93]

Yeah I forgot to mention that summary was supporting 50:50. Glad I could help!

 

[Seagull Joe]

Fire will always beat Fox's side B. UpB can go through it somewhat though.

Either way, it limits recovery options.

the funnest use of fire is against a diddy recovering.they fail once one little ember hits em.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I guess I should start off Sheik maybiiiiiii...?


Bowser vs. Sheik is a mixed bag. First off, Bowser doesnt die for a while. Second, Sheik's kill option sare very limited. However, Sheik is moderately fast and can run circle around Bowser if the matchup is unfamiliar.

One good thing for Bowser is that the ftilt lock is useless. We can fortress right out of it give Sheik a good 33% if they try. This shuts down ftilt completely, which is good.

Sheik can, however, **** you with aerialsif they are smart and read you, or, you are just not being careful. Her aerials are fast and pretty strong (as far as percentage goes lololol).

Sheik's main kill option in this matchup is her DACUS, and if you see this coming than you can easily shield it and punish it as necessary. This will, conversely, **** you if they catch you off guard.

As said, Sheik's aerial own and for the reason try to stay out of the air as long as possible. Try to use side B less, and use it for killing; Sheik is VERY LIGHT.

Gimping should not be a problem as your upb has those good ole invincibility frames. Utilize them well.

Needles can be a problem, but if you shield them they are useless. Just dont be stupid and you should be fine. (Also, needle lock is gay, so try to tech when you hit the stage).

5/5 Sheik/Bowser.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I think someone should update the chart

 

[Hobobloke]

I'll ask BK to do it for us he's good with editing pics and stuff.