A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[MrEh]

I've been away all weekend. Business.

I'll update the OP.


As for the chart, I would love to update it, but I can't do a good job of it. Mmac was the one who made the original chart, so he has the original PSD. He never sent it to me before he left.

 

[Red Arremer]

Didn't we already discuss Sheik hand in hand with Zelda? ^^"

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah. at least somewhat... I think we came to 50:50... but there weren't many sheik mains here so maybe he wants to give them a chance to weigh in?

 

[Blistering Speed]

50:50.

Fortress is very important in this matchup. It's his fastest attack with frame 1-5 invincibility and considering Sheik is statistically the fastest attacker (yes, faster then MK). Shield and Fortress, shield and fortress. F Tilt lock? Unless he has the appropriate decay and percentage (in which case, yes you're stuck until you SDI out and Sheik finishes it with U Tilt, N Air or U Smash) then you fortress that ****. This can apply to virtually any of Sheik's pressure and pseudo combos, you must live in that shield and respond OOS.

Sheik has a broke *** chain (a lot of characters simply cant get through it if used properly). Luckily, firebreath can outrange chain and also, between each hit of the chain there is a 2 frame gap, so if you do get caught in it in you can Fortress spam it out.

As usual, you space on the ground with F Tilt and Jabs, your priority is keeping Sheik out with your marginally superior range. Also, you don't take to the air unless necessary, Bowser will be beaten in the air by Sheik.

Bowser has to approach, Sheik's needles are a good projectile, whether they'll charge for a full needle storm (18%) or if they'll spam single needles, both are effective and means you've got to get in close proximity whilst still spacing yourself out of her close combat game. That's the zone you want.

Sheik's an effective gimper but if she's coming for you, time that fortress and abuse the invincibility and priority. Sheik also cant chainguard well because of this. In regards to you edgeguarding Sheik, edgehog rules Sheiks recovery. Chain recovery is fast and effective and you take that option away with an edgehog, you instead force Sheik to use the much laggier Vanish, so predict her landing from there and punish accordingly.

Sheik has a marginal problem with killing and Bowser is super fat so you can expect to be living much longer then Sheik. Sheik's ways of killing are gimping (covered), D Smash/B Air and U Smash. F Tilt decayed properly can combo into U Smash which IIRC kills Bowser with DI at ~115% on FD. So your job is to try and keep that F Tilt at inappropriate decay, either by avoiding the F Tilt all together or fortressing when it doesn't combo.

For the record, Zelda used appropriately will always be a boon in this matchup, both with killing and general play.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

For the record, Zelda used appropriately will always be a boon in this matchup, both with killing and general play.

yeah I'm pretty sure this is a zelda free rating.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Which is I devoted one sentence to it and said "for the record".

 

[Cassius.]

Lol OKAY. Since we did the Sheik Zelda and Fox MU's and pretty much agreed on 50:50, 40:60 and 50:50 [respectively], who's next?

Although I don't think we really did Fox totally, but no one posted about the Fox MU in two days... lol

 

[MrEh]

Lol OKAY. Since we did the Sheik Zelda and Fox MU's and pretty much agreed on 50:50, 40:60 and 50:50 [respectively], who's next?

Although I don't think we really did Fox totally, but no one posted about the Fox MU in two days... lol

Fox boards arlready dicussed it recently, and they came to the same conclusion. 50:50.

Not much to say is there? Unless someone has some game breaking information they'd like to share.

 

[Cassius.]

The Klaw Drop [platform Koopa Klaw cancelling thingy] is legit and gamebreaking :o

lol jks. I don't really think there's much to say...Bowser does fine against spacies IMO. Could be better, but hey, 50:50's good enough for me sometimes.

 

[B!squick]

The Klaw Drop [platform Koopa Klaw cancelling thingy] is legit and gamebreaking :o

I see my name is already catching on! :D It just makes sence to me. Klaw Hop for the ISJR and Klaw Drop for the insta fall through.

Not sure what kind of an effect this would have on... any match up really with it being so untested. :/

 

[Cassius.]

True. And then also we would have to bring platforms into every single argument...and even then idk how effective that'll be.

 

[B!squick]

Well, it probably makes platforms less of a hell against characters like Marth than they were before.

 

[sniperworm]

Sorry, I was just passing through and thought I should comment on this post.

I'd argue that sniperworm isn't that great of a sheik >__>

spams roll + spotdodge WAY too much and makes some piss poor decisions at times

but i mean he's better than i am because he actually goes to tournies so i can't say anything LOL

continue w/ your fox discussion >_>

You know, the part about me not being good is very true...

Although I'd like to point out that the reason why I suck (aka too much roll, spotdodge, and apparently poor decisions) is that I basically have no finger dexterity and no reaction time. Half those rolls, spotdodges, and weird moves aren't what I wanted to do and I'm pretty much always predicting since I can't react to anything.

To illustrate my reaction speed, I decided to run a test. I had someone else c-stick Bowser Fsmashes at me in training mode while I just stood there and tried to block them (not perfect shield, just block). I blocked 36 out of 50 ... . I don't know how many frames it takes for Bowser's Fsmash to hit, but something tells me most people would've blocked 50 out of 50.

But yeah, I suck.

 

[B!squick]

According to the frame data it first hits on frame 26, so a little less than half a second.

But to really test your reaction time, try this test: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

I scored 268 ms on my first try, so I'm apparently slow too, lol (average is 215 ms).

 

[Bowser King]

I guess were moving on to ike now since the shiek matchup was/is done for the most part.

-Bowser King

 

[_clinton]

Hello little Bowser mains...please chat in this thread about what Bowser could use on Ness in a match and how Ness might be able to counter it...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229697

Again the idea is what Bowser has over Ness and what he can do to deal with it...not what Ness could do to Bowser...

 

[MrEh]

You know, the part about me not being good is very true...

Lies.

To illustrate my reaction speed, I decided to run a test. I had someone else c-stick Bowser Fsmashes at me in training mode while I just stood there and tried to block them (not perfect shield, just block). I blocked 36 out of 50 ... . I don't know how many frames it takes for Bowser's Fsmash to hit, but something tells me most people would've blocked 50 out of 50.

I got nothing. lol

But yeah, I suck.

Tournament results say otherwise.

 

[sniperworm]

According to the frame data it first hits on frame 26, so a little less than half a second.

But to really test your reaction time, try this test: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

I scored 268 ms on my first try, so I'm apparently slow too, lol (average is 215 ms).

I tried it 10 times and the best I got was 328 ms. I also had a few over 500 ms, which explains how I might not react to a 26 frame move.

The average is 215 ms, holy crap I'm slow.

Edit: Oh, since everyone is posting their averages, mine was somewhere in the 420's.

 

[Blistering Speed]

10 tries, I averaged 203. Yeeeaaaahhhhhh!!!

I think it's fair to say we should change now, everyone virtually except me said what they wanted to say about Sheik in the Zelda discussion.

 

[Hobobloke]

Considering everyone else did it I averaged 186 after 10 tries, fear my mad reaction time!

 

[B!squick]

I got 223. Darn you kids! D:<

 

[Liquid Gen]

222.

Oh well Jay, we play Bowser, after all. It's ok.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah. Lest we forgot that Bowser is slow. *nod nod*

 

[Darknid]

183, ladies and gents. SUCK ON THAT

 

[B!squick]

You have a Yu Gi Oh card as your avatar. I think in the grand scheme of things that's an auto fail, lol.

 

[Cassius.]

I actually got 218 as my reaction time...the lowest I got was 201 though. I guess I'm average u.u

Now...what about this Ike matchup eh?

 

[Phiddlesticks]

I regularly play a good Ike on wifi and I can confidently say that Ike has a 70-30 advantage in this matchup.

 

[Red Arremer]

How so? o.o

 

[Vex Kasrani]

According to the frame data it first hits on frame 26, so a little less than half a second.

But to really test your reaction time, try this test: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

I scored 268 ms on my first try, so I'm apparently slow too, lol (average is 215 ms).

I kept getting around 150-180's D:

 

[B!squick]

Lol, Vex is too awesome.

 

[Darknid]

How the hell is Ike a 70-30..

 

[MrEh]

I was getting around 250. Holy crap I'm slow. lol

 

[Red Arremer]

lol. Mine ranged from 150 to 300something when I didn't really pay attention.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

I regularly play a good Ike on wifi and I can confidently say that Ike has a 70-30 advantage in this matchup.

()

 

[itsthebigfoot]

averaged 188, cool little time waster

anyway, bowsers grab release cg is a 0 - death on ike, I don't see how this is a bad matchup

0-death being he doesn't survive the fair/dtilt if you just grab the ledge

 

[Red Arremer]

Not to mention that Fire royally abuses Ike's butt.

 

[MrEh]

averaged 188, cool little time waster

anyway, bowsers grab release cg is a 0 - death on ike, I don't see how this is a bad matchup

0-death being he doesn't survive the fair/dtilt if you just grab the ledge

The Ike players claim that Ike has a CG on Bowser. I've never gotten it to work.


Oh, and after we're done going through all of these ratios, we need to rediscuss some of matchups. Luigi and Wolf need some more discussion I think.

 

[EnragedMathlete]

Wolf needs to looked at again.

I might be biased since I play with choice all the time and he's definitely one of the better wolf players but the wolf matchup is definitely not 50-50. Have you been shine gimped? What do you do against the bair WOP? If you up+b oos his aerial speed and weight lets him follow you so he can grab you/punish out of lag. shield pressure? Also, the 12% dthrow + pummel + a great cross up game is pretty scary. Trading hits with wolf doesn't work well either since he racks of damage insanely fast. yeah...

 

[MrEh]

Wolf needs to looked at again.

I might be biased since I play with choice all the time and he's definitely one of the better wolf players but the wolf matchup is definitely not 50-50. Have you been shine gimped? What do you do against the bair WOP? If you up+b oos his aerial speed and weight lets him follow you so he can grab you/punish out of lag. shield pressure? Also, the 12% dthrow + pummel + a great cross up game is pretty scary. Trading hits with wolf doesn't work well either since he racks of damage insanely fast. yeah...

I know all of this. (some of it isn't true though)

The ratio was decided prematurely I think. Personally, I think it's 45-55. But we'll re discuss it later after we're done with the other characters.

 

[B!squick]

Wolf needs to looked at again.

I might be biased since I play with choice all the time and he's definitely one of the better wolf players but the wolf matchup is definitely not 50-50. Have you been shine gimped?

I was only shine gimped once, but that was from a Fox and I had made a mistake.

What do you do against the bair WOP? If you up+b oos his aerial speed and weight lets him follow you so he can grab you/punish out of lag.

Wolf BAir isn't as scary as DK BAir (ask itsthebigfoot) and is stopped with shield. If they get too cocky with their BAir, then you UpB. You don't need to approach until he busts out the blaster, just let him BAir to his heart's content. And he can't punish your Fortress if you ledge cancel it.

shield pressure? Also, the 12% dthrow + pummel + a great cross up game is pretty scary. Trading hits with wolf doesn't work well either since he racks of damage insanely fast. yeah...

Things like Wolf's DThrow that send you in that type of trajectory can be teched off the stage. And don't forget Bowser damages well too and has an average stock life span that Wolf wishes he had.

Also, Firebreath ***** the space animals off stage.