A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

compare bowser to sheik and he looks like he's moving through mud with how comparitively slow he is. If bowser's not slow then there wouldn't be many charcters you COULD call slow. <_<

I dunno, they don't strike me as a better shield pressuring tool as Din, but I won't object to your knowledge.

oh they are... but they are better at camping too... they are just better.

Din's is used to punish vulnerability. You airdodge early or use an attack from too far away, or roll wrong, or are stuck off the edge, we'll throw a din's at you, but it's hard to say Din's is really good at doing anything that the foe doesn't put himself in a situation to be hit by.

 

[Red Arremer]

compare bowser to sheik and he looks like he's moving through mud with how comparitively slow he is. If bowser's not slow then there wouldn't be many charcters you COULD call slow. <_<

But Bowser isn't all that slow. He has some laggy attacks like the FSmash or the DAir, and some end lags are horrible (BAir, DownB), but he also has insanely fast attacks (FTilt, Fortress, Jab), and his overall maneuverbility is about average. Of course, in comparison to Sheik he may be slow, but he isn't slow overall. That'd be Ganon or Ike.

oh they are... but they are better at camping too... they are just better.

Okay. I'll trust you there. =P

 

[Darknid]

Bowser isn't slow at all. In fact, he's plenty fast. He only has a lot of ENDING LAG on his attacks. His attacks come out quickly, but have ending lag, so he is by no means slow.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Bowser isn't slow at all. In fact, he's plenty fast. He only has a lot of ENDING LAG on his attacks. His attacks come out quickly, but have ending lag, so he is by no means slow.

fine then. Besides Ike and Ganondorf, who is slow then?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Dedede, on the ground.

 

[Bowser King]

Did you just happen to miss out on this?

-Bowser King

 

[MrEh]

Did you just happen to miss out on this?

-Bowser King

That pretty much proves that Bowser is slightly above average in speed. Honestly, I don't get why people think he's slow. lol

Even in the air, he's faster then half the cast.

 

[Red Arremer]

Besides Ike and Ganon?

Dedede. Link. Snake. Charizard. Lucas except for FSmash.

 

[MrEh]

fine then. Besides Ike and Ganondorf, who is slow then?

Well, if we follow the chart....


Hax
Sonic
Falcon

Really Fast
Fox
Shiek
ZSS
MK

Fast
Zard
Pika
Diddy
Marth

Above Average
Yoshi
DK
Toon Link
Pit
Gdub

Average
Lucas
Rob
Mario
Bowser
Ivysaur
Samus

Below Average
Falco
Lucario
Olimar
Ness
Wolf
Ice Climbers

Slow
Ike
Squirtle
Kirby
Peach
Wario
Weegee
Snake
Link
Dedede
Zelda

Dorf and Jiggs
Dorf
Jiggs

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well, if we follow the chart....

not run speed >_< not that run speed isn't important, but attack speed is what matters more in a fighting game.

and whoever said snake earlier, his tilts and jab aren't slow... and they are MORE than good enough to make him play fast enough.

 

[Red Arremer]

But you DO know that Snake's tilts and Bowser's tilts aren't all that different in Speed? Same goes for Smashes, where Bowser is even faster. Aerials are around the same speed too... and so are the Specials.

If you ask me, I would say that if you think Bowser is oh-so-slow, you have to think Snake is slow, as well. =)

 

[B!squick]

Did you just happen to miss out on this?

-Bowser King

^This was covered in my

BOWSER IS NOT SLOW! =_=

post.

As well I pointed out that range is a factor too. So I'll say again:

BOWSER IS IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM SLOW!

Now, let's get back to the discussion. Bowser/Shiek//50/50, 55/45 if you insist. Bowser/Zelda//60/40.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@ Spadefox: the diference is how ridiculously good all of snakes tilts and his jab are... they have range, priority, speed and massive KO power considering their speed... they are bordering on unfair and that alone makes him play fast enough that he's hard to take lightly... still, though, he's one of the slower characters, but so is bowser, really. He's not OMG the slowest member of the cast, or even OMG one of the slowest handful, but when it comes to, compared to everyone else factoring in all things, is he on the slower end or the faster end, he's on the slower end, especially when compared to sheik who is one of the fastest there is. I play Zelda, she's on the slower end, and bowser isn't exactly running circles around her.

I'm aware it must be frustrating as a bowser main to have everyone assume that your charcter is a lumbering bufoon because he LOOKS slow, but it's one thing to say that he's faster than he's being given credit for. It's quite another to say that he's FAST (which would assume that there are more charcters slower than him than faster than him... which is QUITE untrue)

@ Jay Deth:

I don't insist.

Bowser vs sheik looks heavily tilted in sheik's advantage until you try to kill the **** thing and then it suddenly becomes quite hard for sheik wheras the opposite isn't true.
my view:
Sheik 50:50
Zelda 60:40

Zelda AND Sheik.... better than Zelda alone. Now is it ENOUGH better to make it 65:35 as opposed to still being closer to 60:40?... uh.... *shrug* but they are better in tandem then alone, and this match is not an exception.

 

[B!squick]

I noticed something when I looked over the data again. Not only is Shiek lighter than Bowser, but she also falls faster. Wait, it gets odder. Bowser is faster in the air than Sheik.

... Huh? O.o

 

[Seagull Joe]

can we go back to the luigi matchup.no way is it 50-50.luigi can do a 0 to death combo on bowser with ease. weak nair>utilt>utilt>uair>uair.thats 70% and can be done with ease to any bowser.then one jab>upb.dead

 

[B!squick]

can we go back to the luigi matchup.no way is it 50-50.luigi can do a 0 to death combo on bowser with ease. weak nair>utilt>utilt>uair>uair.thats 70% and can be done with ease to any bowser.then one jab>upb.dead

This is all assuming that they don't eat an UpB OoS.

 

[Cassius.]

Also you can't just assume the Bowser will be wide open to the Nair all the time. And that same exact "combo" can't be counted on to work every single stock [hopefully the Bowser is smart] And how is that 70%? @_@.

With Zelda and Sheik I face a few Zeldas and Sheiks, and I will say that Sheik is a bit easier to handle than Zelda, but I also think it's in Bowser's favor. Sheik may be able to rack up damage or whatever, but it won't take long for Bowser to catch up in percentage. Bowser can also get a kill a lot easier than Sheik can because of weight differences :V

Zelda and Sheik at the same time is a different case, but you'd probably be better off just using Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda and Sheik at the same time is a different case, but you'd probably be better off just using Zelda.

I disagree solely because using zelda and sheik SHOULD result in a better damage ratio for zelda and less stale kill moves once you are in "death range" with your damage%

 

[Seagull Joe]

zelda usmash ***** bowser hard.he is easily caught in it and shield stabbed easily with it. and yea luigi combos bowser to easy.the upb oos doesnt work in the air.then it is just reg upb without invincibility.so yea the combo goes through as u get hit over and over

 

[B!squick]

The only thing you really need to worry about with Luigi is his UpB. Everything else is managable. NinjaLink uploaded a vid of him playing Luigi, you should check it out for some pointers.

 

[MrEh]

There's no reason to use Shiek even if we argue that "lol sheik does damage and zelda kills"

Why would you even bother going though the trouble of using Sheik when you could just stay Zelda and shut down more of Bowser's options?

 

[B!squick]

The unstaling of Zelda's moves is what he keeps bringing up and I still think it doesn't matter. You deal more damage with Zelda and you'll probably always have a fresh kill option. No johns.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

^I swear that knowing the lightning kick has decayed is like being able to breathe again... mostly because I'm fighting an average Zelda and, thus, it ends up being what I fear the most. In all honesty, though, a good Zelda would be using such a wide range of kill moves that the decay for any one of her kill moves shouldn't be enough to stop her from killing Bowser once he hits 130% (happens in the blink of an eye). Perhaps the 130% is a bit below the mark, but it's certainly the percent where opportunities to kill Bowser start rising exponentially. By then, the average Bowser player would be pressured to the ledge, if not already forced to recover from off-stage... This usually results in an upsmash or somesort. Also, unspectacular moves will land at some point, too (like her nair, neutralB, and grabs) simply due to the nature of the game, and we all know what that means...

 

[MrEh]

Lighting kicks have so much knockback and do like, 20%.

Even if they're staled, they still kill, so keeping them fresh is pointless.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lighting kicks have so much knockback and do like, 20%.

Even if they're staled, they still kill, so keeping them fresh is pointless.

not when using sheik is like a free way to keep all of zelda's moves unstale with just as much an ability wrack up damage on bowser.

 

[Cassius.]

not when using sheik is like a free way to keep all of zelda's moves unstale with just as much an ability wrack up damage on bowser.

Zelda has like what, seven kill moves? How stale are you going to get? Sheik isn't really that much needed in this matchup IMO. Zelda can rack up damage well enough on her own [like you just said], and she can actually kill with her...seven [or however many she has] killer moves.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda has like what, seven kill moves? How stale are you going to get? Sheik isn't really that much needed in this matchup IMO. Zelda can rack up damage well enough on her own [like you just said], and she can actually kill with her...seven [or however many she has] killer moves.

for one, Usmash is one of her better kill moves when it's fresh.... and it'll almost never be fresh when it comes time to kill.

sourspotted lightning kicks will stale the entire kick... so, I mean, It's quite likely that you'll have staled USmash, Fsamsh and both kicks by the time it comes to kill... that's around half of her kill moves.

 

[B!squick]

How do you sour spot a lightning kick on Bowser? I swear the things auto sweet on him. Besides, trying to kill Bowser with an UpSmash is silly. He's the heaviest character in the game and you want a vertical kill? Just use UpSmash to pop him up and then wait for the AD and light a fire with UpAir. If he doesn't dodge, kick during the landing lag.

And you're complaining about staling kill moves why? Most characters are lucky to have two let alone all the options Zelda has. =_=

 

[Cassius.]

Besides, even if Zelda loses her UpSmash or "Staled Lightning Kicks" [ohh emm gee] and Forward Smash...you still have the up-air which is hella strong, the **** kicks STILL because staling seems to not affect her foot whatsoever, the spike if you pull it off, The thing that jaydeth said...usmash to uair.

And I wouldn't put it past a Zelda to find some other way to kill Bowser :V

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Besides, even if Zelda loses her UpSmash or "Staled Lightning Kicks" [ohh emm gee] and Forward Smash...you still have the up-air which is hella strong, the **** kicks STILL because staling seems to not affect her foot whatsoever, the spike if you pull it off, The thing that jaydeth said...usmash to uair.

And I wouldn't put it past a Zelda to find some other way to kill Bowser :V

doesn't change the fact that it's EASIER not to NEED to work around stale moves and to just have them all fresh.

 

[Red Arremer]

I find it saddening how Sonic is the only Zelda main to pay us a visit and talk with us about the MU. =(

 

[B!squick]

They don't need to all be fresh, that's why it's 60/40 in the first place. =_= I find it funny that the Zelda player is undermining Zelda's killing potential and we're trying to tell him, "no, Zelda ***** Bowser, no Shiek needed."

 

[Cassius.]

Spade is right...where are all the other Zelda groupi-----errr, mainers?

:V

 

[Cassius.]

Spade is right...where are all the other Zelda groupi-----errr, mainers?

:V

 

[B!squick]

Do any other Zelda mains feel the need to use Sheik when versing Bowser? Like, out of worry of staling your moves or something.

Sheik and Zelda both have advantage against Bowser, so it's up to the player which one they want to play really. Though, if you really want to obliterate the match-up, just Ftilt-lock Bowser with Sheik to rack damage, then Switch to Zelda and do a Dtilt trip to buffered Fair/Bair.

Spoiler

10sighs

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

They don't need to all be fresh, that's why it's 60/40 in the first place. =_= I find it funny that the Zelda player is undermining Zelda's killing potential and we're trying to tell him, "no, Zelda ***** Bowser, no Shiek needed."

never said she didn't have killing power or that sheik was needed. Merely that sheik improves the outcome of the matchup even more.

 

[MrEh]

I find it saddening how Sonic is the only Zelda main to pay us a visit and talk with us about the MU. =(

Nah, it's fine. Most of the Zelda players don't know what they're talking about anyway, so they wouldn't be able to help much.

I've played with DarkMusician enough to know that this matchup is 60-40, and Sheik doesn't change that at all. If anything, it makes the matchup easier.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I find it saddening how Sonic is the only Zelda main to pay us a visit and talk with us about the MU. =(

Maybe they don´t know you´re discussing her. I didn´t.

I don´t know about Sheik, but Zelda has an advantage on Bowser. She can use Din pretty safely to get damage in or force approaches as long as there´s some distance between them. Her U-smash is also fantastic against Bowser: it´s easy to hit with, causes damage quickly, leads into other things and can even hit multiple times every now and then.

Neither side of the matchup can really edgeguard the other one too well, but Zelda succeedes more often. Her teleporting protects her from Bowser´s fire and aerials most of the time and is long enough for her to recover from far away. Bowser fortress has invincibility to protect him from Zelda´s spike and starts up fast enough to sometimes avoid the lightning kick (although sometimes even a sourspotted Dair is enough to kill him). It also isn´t as safe as Zelda´s recovery.

Bowser kills early, but can´t really thrust that he´s gonna get killers in. Bowsercide also is often prevented by Zelda´s multihits and range. Zelda also hits with her normally hard to hit but destructive lightning kicks pretty easy.

They both have enough strength to kill other one and means of doing this, but Zelda has more options and easier time causing damage. She has downtilt lock and its followups, but Bowser F-tilt is good at keeping her too far to use it. She can still get it after Nair or something though.

I´d give 60-40. It would be higher if Bowser didn´t kill Zelda so frigging early.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've played with DarkMusician enough to know that this matchup is 60-40, and Sheik doesn't change that at all. If anything, it makes the matchup easier.

last I checked DM wasn't a good sheik, even when using sheik and Zelda. Has that changed or are you basing this off of other sheiks?

 

[Red Arremer]

Maybe they don´t know you´re discussing her. I didn´t.

Well we did post in both the Zelda and the Sheik MU threads, so it's not to blame on us. We just didn't make a thread about it cause they're forbidden nowadays.