A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[hippiedude92]

I don't need to say any numbers, but Luigi has a starting advantage in this match-up. I don't like playing on FD, but when I fight Bowser, those empty stages are really my best choice.
Now, Luigi has this advantage because he is great against big characters. He can UpB, nair, SH aerials, lotsa bairs. I just think it's really easy for Luigi to approach Bowser. If Bowser is breathing fire, Luigi can take that damage just to get in, I remember someone saying:

I find myself rolling around Bowser whenever he uses a smash attack, not rolling at anytime in the MU, but just when that situation is happening. That way I have a good amount of time to make sure my attack will do some damage, like an UpB from the back.

What I really want to see is what you guys have to say, because I'm always good against big characters, even DDD minus chain grab.

Of course boozer is a big target and gets 60%'d combo'd. But it's hard to get to that espically with his massive defensive options
Boozer = all about defense. Lol. Srsly. Trust me, without OOS Upb for boozer, he probably be in low tier lol. But straked covered it. Play me on wifi i'll spam oos upb all day <33 (lol,lagjohns). Spade covered it anyways. However, dont underestimate big chars, espically DK (go bum? XD)

oh and shoryuken has inv frames too. We' just cant find the right testing tools atm but im pretty sure it has inv frames somewhere there too >.> But yea agreed with grab releases part too as well.

 

[B!squick]

Klaw has 3 frames of landing lag, and you think it's situational? O.o

Also, if you're rolling around FSmash (since you'd be in the air for USmash and DSmash is pretty much for punishing those foolish enough to roll towards him anyway)... well, you shouldn't be. FSmash is for punishing laggy moves and poor spacing.

You obviously haven't even SEEN in a vid how a good Bowser plays, so your homework for tonight is to watch some Bowser vids. Pay careful attention to those from Vex Kasrani, NinjaLink, and Sliq.

 

[hippiedude92]

LMAOOOO! Alright pops finished my hw. Played NL and got ***** yup. (true story LMAO) but yeah youtube those because good boozers are TOO GOOD.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

@kigbariom: If you are used to relying on Luigi's air game to approach, you will have to change the way you play against Bowser. Any of Luigi's aerials will get punished by a Fortress OoS, even those with no landing lag. This is especially true in Luigi's case, both because of his poor aerial speed and because his aerials simply don't have the range to safely space them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use Luigi's aerials, but using them to approach a grounded Bowser is a very bad idea.

 

[ScAtt77]

oh ya btw Hippiedude I know a really good way to test SJP's invincibility frames :D :

Go to training and lay out a few bob-ombs and upb into them. easy.

but of course thats no way to find the exact frame

 

[MrEh]

Wolf has been added as a 50-50 matchup. I actually think it's 45-55, but we can rediscuss it later.


You guys have started on Luigi already, so carry on.

 

[B!squick]

I think we're done with Weegee already.

I'd say it's about even. 40/60 if I'm the one playing, lol.

 

[MrEh]

Everyone agree on 50-50?

I'll leave this open a little longer to make sure.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes. Luigi is even.

 

[Bowser King]

Agreed. Luigi 50-50.

-Bowser King

 

[(1UP)]

ugweed 50-50

 

[MrEh]

Thread updated. Now discussing Zelda.

I play with DarkMusician on a regular basis, and he's arguably the best Zelda main in the country. I can reliably say that this matchup is pretty bad. Like 40-60 bad.

 

[Red Arremer]

I wholeheartedly and fully agree with MrEh.

Zelda has (surprise!) better aerial game than Bowser, her Thunderkicks pretty much always will connect due to the turtle being such a huge target, she has firebawls, USmash ***** us like nothing else.

We have grab release - and even those are not so easy to pull off on a good Zelda - and can keep her away with Jab, Fire and FTilt... and... that's pretty much it. <_<

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd say 40-60 Zelda. Bowser should have one hell of a time approaching her. And he's the biggest thing in the game so her normally hard to land lightning kicks suddenly become a lot easier to land. On the upside for you guys, zelda isn't the best at approaching you and Din's isn't the best pressure tool.

Usmash outprioritizes and connects against pretty much anything you do above us and Fsmash outranges your ground game... then there's Dtilt which leads into all sorts of scary stuff. All her smashes or even lighting kicks, for example.

Also, a botched fire breath can lead to lightning kicks, or at least din's.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yea, Zelda is a helluva MU. D:

Though I dunno, afaik Bowser's Jab comes out way faster than Zelda's FSmash, and can keep her away from DTilt range, as well.

 

[MrEh]

If you're playing this right, Zelda shouldn't be able to land any Dtilts at all. lol

It's mostly Zelda's smashes and kicks that really mess with Bowser.

We have grab release - and even those are not so easy to pull off on a good Zelda

Inn short, our grab release options are pretty bad. With no grab release Dtilt, it's better to just throw her in most cases.

 

[B!squick]

What about Shiek? Might as well discuss both if only because some people play one just as much as the other.

 

[Red Arremer]

Sheik is actually easier for Bowser than Zelda. I'd say around 60:40-ish for him.

Although Sheik is fast and good in damage racking, she has huge problems killing Bowser. She also has a range problem, as Bowser's Jab and FTilt highly outrange her. Fortress OoS kills off all of her possible combo chances, she's an easy victim for GR shenanigans and sometimes Fire. Bowser has an easier time approaching Sheik than Zelda, and it all mostly comes down to punishing games if one of the opponents wiffs their attacks.

Sheik/Zelda in double are pretty dangerous, though, as long as she doesn't recklessly transform when we can punish her.

 

[hippiedude92]

Everyone agree on 50-50?

I'll leave this open a little longer to make sure.

Abit faster then I thought. Lol,nice agreeable discussion XD. *55-45 if im playing XD j/k*
Just throwing quick two cents on zelda,getting her to the air and juggle traping her is very good. x)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

What about Shiek? Might as well discuss both if only because some people play one just as much as the other.

if you're using both it's probably worse for bowser... all sheik's damage wracking abilities with all of Zelda's KO abilities... and un-stale kill moves at that.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

^Actually, the chances of Sheik turning into Zelda mid-match is unlikely. If Sheik doesn't knock Bowser far enough away to change safely, she'll eat a charged forward smash, garanteed.

I play an average Zelda weekly. It still sucks. 60-40, Zelda's favor. As a side note, I laughed out loud when my dair when right through a short-ranged din's fire. I managed to tack on 2% damage, but it was a surprising 2%.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik should jump transform if she's hit with a non lethal blow from bowser... she'll be WAY too high up for bowser to hit before she is done transforming.

 

[MrEh]

Sheik is actually easier for Bowser than Zelda. I'd say around 60:40-ish for him.

I think Sheik is 50-50.


And there's no reason to switch to Sheik, even for the damage. Zelda racks on enough damage just fine, and Bowser does much better on Sheik then he does on Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think Sheik is 50-50.


And there's no reason to switch to Sheik, even for the damage. Zelda racks on enough damage just fine, and Bowser does much better on Sheik then he does on Zelda.

50:50 vs 60:40 isn't MUCH better... I'd consider the switch for the fresh kill moves alone.

 

[MrEh]

I'd consider the switch for the fresh kill moves alone.

Zelda's Uair, Bair, and Fair will probably be fresh anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Red Arremer]

I dunno, I know a relatively good Zelda/Sheik player, and he pretty much agrees with me on the 60:40 for Bowser against Sheik.
When playing against Sheik, Bowser can stay inside of his shield and Fortress OoS all day, and Jab and FTilt outreach every of Sheiks approaches. Grab release shenanigans work far better on Sheik, too. The only thing she has going for her are pretty much the needles and her speed.

Sheik has a hell of a time trying to approach Bowser due to him simply outranging her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

mayhaps. Iunno. all I have to do with sheik is wait for an opening and then I can normally pile on over 50% damage and then I'll just switch to Zelda as soon as it becomes an option... that or I'll just be zelda the whole time because it's easier.

 

[MrEh]

that or I'll just be zelda the whole time because it's easier.

If being Zelda is easier, then there's no point of using Sheik. lol

Sheik has a hell of a time trying to approach Bowser due to him simply outranging her.

The problem is that Sheik doesn't have to approach Bowser.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If being Zelda is easier, then there's no point of using Sheik. lol.

easier because you don't have to worry about knowing how to play two characters, or finding an opportunity to transform. That doesn't make Zelda alone a better option, just an easier one.

 

[B!squick]

All I know for a fact is that Zelda's UpSmash has the annoying habit of ignoring my shield.

 

[MrEh]

That doesn't make Zelda alone a better option, just an easier one.

No, Zelda is both better and easier. lol

All I know for a fact is that Zelda's UpSmash has the annoying habit of ignoring my shield.

Make sure to shield all the hits. ^^

 

[B!squick]

It's tough though. All it takes is one of the thousands of hit boxes it has to shield poke and I get sucked up into the rest of it. x_x

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No, Zelda is both better and easier. lol

that's up for debate, but that doesn't make my point untrue.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

^So you want us to write a matchup number for the combined change of Zelda and Sheik? Seems needlessly complicated, no?

 

[stealth3654]

Well, Sheik can make Bowser approach with needles and Sheik has the f tilt lock (which racks up a nice amount of % on Bowser). Sheik can also gimp Bowser easily if the Sheik player is smart. When Bowser is at a high enough % and Sheik is given some time, Sheik will transform into Zelda for the kill then switch back into Sheik (which replenishes all stale moves ) unless they decide to stay with Zelda.

 

[MrEh]

Sheik can also gimp Bowser easily if the Sheik player is smart.

'
Haha, srsly?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

'
Haha, srsly?

he was right...... until he said that.

 

[Red Arremer]

I regret posting into the Sheik boards now... Haha.

Oh man. People underestimating Bowser and thinking their prejudices are facts.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

^Their prejudices are facts, though. Maybe not all the facts are there, but yeah... I think you're taking the whole "underestimating Bowser" a bit too far. You could say that about any mid-low tier with ease. Boy, is that list big...

 

[B!squick]

^Their prejudices are facts, though. Maybe not all the facts are there, but yeah... I think you're taking the whole "underestimating Bowser" a bit too far. You could say that about any mid-low tier with ease. Boy, is that list big...

Hmm...

"prej·u·dice (prěj'ə-dĭs) Pronunciation Key
n.
An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts."

Hrmmmm...... :/


... Well, anyway, as long as they were invited, might as well talk about Shiek, too.

.... It's what, about 60/40, 55/45 Bowser advantage, right?