A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[itsthebigfoot]

wolf's bair game is wayyyyy better than dk's bair game

your bair comes out 2 frames sooner and ends 10 frames quicker

they both do the same damage

dks bair has way more range (and therefore more aerial priority), more shield stun (it's actually 1 frame safer on block), more knockback and combos into more moves than yours does.

yours isn't way better, yours isn't even better, I'd trade 2 frames of speed for more safety, priority, range and knockback any day

Shield pressuring is hard against a bowser cuz of his up b oos. And he can move either forward or backwards just like in melee. The up b's start up range is huge and has invincibility frames. You don't really need to hit confirm the bairs, as soon as you see it just up b. Sure it doesnt do that much dmg like you said JJ, but its some damage. I really don't see this playing that huge of a role in the match up though honestly. I mean if the wolf gets tired of approaching and being met with up b's oos, they'll probably start lazoring or go for grabs. The grabs are huge in this match up even more so than shield pressuring i feel. But yea definitely if you can get some matches in with Vex, go for it man. I'd love to see the vids. He seems to stay in the air for a lot of the time and, in my experience at least, bowser just cant keep up with wolf's air game, but his ground game is good enough to make up for it i feel.

there are two reasons bowsers upb is ****, first, shield pressuring isn't just difficult, it's impossible, if you hit the shield you get *****, period, no johns. second,
invincibility frames > grabs. if we see a grab coming upb will make sure it doesn't work.

also, on the off chance you get a grab, wolfs grab game is pretty bad, i think it'll be like 12% tops, maybe more at really low %

Yeah, I suspect Bowser would have to stay out of the air for the most part--Wolf's air game is downright dangerous, and I would think it would be more than enough to lock down most of Bowser's aerial options.

fair is a frame slower than wolfs bair and out prioritizes it. you'll be fine.

lolol, whose airgame isn't better than Bowser's? XD I honestly can't think of a character with worse airgame than Bowser, even Ganon's isn't that bad. =P

bowser's air game is surprisingly good, don't underestimate it or you'll be *****. his bair comes out frame 8 or 9 i think, and kos ridiculously early, his uair kos earlier and has almost no ending lag, and his fair is really quick with great priority, unless you're game and watch you gotta watch out

though dair and nair are pretty useless, sideb ***** in there place though

 

[choice_brawler]

there are two reasons bowsers upb is ****, first, shield pressuring isn't just difficult, it's impossible, if you hit the shield you get *****, period, no johns. second,
invincibility frames > grabs. if we see a grab coming upb will make sure it doesn't work.

If the bowser guesses wrong on the grab or bair or what be it, then he gets punished. Bowser cannot up b all of wolfs approaches. I'm positive that fair is disjointed enough to not get hit. Bowser could up b to protect his shield but it would leave him open to getting punished. If bowser up b's at all and does not hit wolf when wolf is nearby, it will be punished. Wolf's DACUS goes far enough for him to punish bowser if he retreats afterwards and also puts bowser into the air, and if bowser stays in place or moves forward then wolf can do whatever.

also, on the off chance you get a grab, wolfs grab game is pretty bad, i think it'll be like 12% tops, maybe more at really low %

-12% is a dthrow with no pummeling which i personally would take anyways, thats like 1/12th of bowser's health towards getting him to kill %
-uthrow and bthrow place bowser into the air for juggling
-wolf's pivot grab is decent

Bowser's air game definitely is pretty good, but wolf's is better. His air mobility is just too good.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

upb is fairly safe if bowser has enough space behind him to run away

also, 1/12th of a % is not much for a grab, if bowser gets a grab it's jab till ground break - jab - sideb for about 25-30% depending on how many jabs come out

thats 1/4th your stock

 

[Bowser King]

upb is fairly safe if bowser has enough space behind him to run away

also, 1/12th of a % is not much for a grab, if bowser gets a grab it's jab till ground break - jab - sideb for about 25-30% depending on how many jabs come out

thats 1/4th your stock

I'm guessing your saying jab cancel to side b out or release. It's not a guaranteed but still pretty good.

Plus, if you choose to get a chaingrab in, you can get even more (though minimal but it allows that extra 5% and allows you to get to the edge if your close)

-Bowser King

 

[choice_brawler]

upb is fairly safe if bowser has enough space behind him to run away

also, 1/12th of a % is not much for a grab, if bowser gets a grab it's jab till ground break - jab - sideb for about 25-30% depending on how many jabs come out

thats 1/4th your stock

I realize the threat that bowser has with grab releases on wolf. Doesn't grab release bowser sit work on wolf too? I thought i read that somewhere, maybe it was debunked. The reward isn't anywhere near as big for wolf unless if his juggling goes successfully off of the uthrow or bthrow, but it does make it an easier fight for wolf whenever bowser is airborne.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

grab release downb works, but it's only the rising hit of the downb, not the good part

 

[B!squick]

If bowser up b's at all and does not hit wolf when wolf is nearby, it will be punished.

You can dift it off stage and grab the ledge if you're near enough a la Melee. It's good to avoid ending it near the opponent, obviously, lol.

 

[choice_brawler]

yea i was messing around with that, seeing if bowser's up b could retreat to the edge. definitely looks like its not as punishable as i thought. how come i never see bowser's retreat to the edge though?

 

[B!squick]

yea i was messing around with that, seeing if bowser's up b could retreat to the edge. definitely looks like its not as punishable as i thought. how come i never see bowser's retreat to the edge though?

It's not as easy to do as in Melee. If you're facing the ledge it's extremely easy to miss than if you're back is to it. Also, if the distance you glide is far enough that you go off stage as the move ends, then you free fall to your death. And it seems that you can't grab the ledge if you start UpB when your right on top of it sometimes. I go into detail about it in my tech thread.

Though the safety of such a meanuver is godly, it means that Bowser is now on the ledge and probably wont be able to capitalise as quickly as staying on the stage would have. And most of the time Bowser is forced to approach anyway, rendering the usability of this pretty sparse.

I personally try to do it every now then, if only to mind game.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

also, a main reason why you may never see a bowser retreat that to the ledge is that nobody plays bowser

 

[B!squick]

also, a main reason why you may never see a bowser retreat that to the ledge is that nobody plays bowser

Stop it itsthebigfoot, you'll make Bowser-

Awww, now look what you did...

 

[choice_brawler]

also, a main reason why you may never see a bowser retreat that to the ledge is that nobody plays bowser

Theres never been more than one at any tourney i've been to, definitely true. Wolf lacks people too

It's not as easy to do as in Melee. If you're facing the ledge it's extremely easy to miss than if you're back is to it. Also, if the distance you glide is far enough that you go off stage as the move ends, then you free fall to your death. And it seems that you can't grab the ledge if you start UpB when your right on top of it sometimes. I go into detail about it in my tech thread.

Sounds like you've done your research, i'll need to look at your tech thread sometime. Just seems like a lil bit of practice is needed with it and up b oos will be safe so long as you're not right on top of the ledge.

Too bad there arent any good wolf vs bowser videos up on youtube. I can try to get some matches recorded once i go back to school and then put them up.

 

[Collective of Bears]

also, a main reason why you may never see a bowser retreat that to the ledge is that nobody plays bowser

Someone needs to get slapped.

 

[B!squick]

Sounds like you've done your research, i'll need to look at your tech thread sometime. Just seems like a lil bit of practice is needed with it and up b oos will be safe so long as you're not right on top of the ledge.

Too bad there arent any good wolf vs bowser videos up on youtube. I can try to get some matches recorded once i go back to school and then put them up.

I'm just a guy with way too much time on his hands.

That would nice. Our vid thread could use a real update again, it's been awhile since it's had one of those.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

in other news this friday i placed 3rd at a tournament going dk/bowser/wolf (the wolf was gotten off random when i didn't feel like playing a ddd, but it won so i stuck with it).

also, is it just me or does every bowser and dk lack a recorder?

 

[choice_brawler]

Its more like, I'm on spring break, and everyone that goes to school around my hometown was still mid-finals until today, plus i have a bowser in my crew back at school that has recording equipment, lol.

Cool beans, i'll get on it once im back, first week of april. Don't expect it up that week though, just cuz i know i'll have work of all sorts thrown at me.

EDIT:

also, is it just me or does every bowser and dk lack a recorder?

debunked ^

 

[B!squick]

Cool stuff itsthebigfoot. I'd probably pick random too against DeDeDe, lol.

But getting back on topic, I still think it's 50/50 verse Wolf. Too close to call it Wolf advantage. Or even Bowser advantage for that matter... lol, Bowser advantage.

 

[(1UP)]

yeah, i'd call this about 50-50 too.

bowser can approach easier and has overall better OoS options like fortress but wolf has a projectile. both characters are fairly easy to gimp too (especially with b-airs), with wolf a predictable recovery, with bowser his recovery too and his sheer size.

 

[B!squick]

Okay, we ready for Weegee?

 

[Cassius.]

urgh Luigi >_< Nair... D:

 

[Cassius.]

Umm I think its 50:50 especially when BF or platforms in general come into play. I think the platforms protect us from any combos he can work up.

Luigi's Nair is godly and it has ******** priority...so be careful on how you attack/approach him. I think Bowser has a better ground game than Luigi IMO, but Luigi does have fireballs and his tornado, but Bowser's jab and ftilt beat his fireballs. [does the jab beat tornado?]

Bowser's Up-B is always good...but whenever I play a Luigi I always get punished anyways >:\ Being on Battlefield seriously makes me happy when playing a Luigi because of u-smash and u-tilt AND up air because Luigi can't really do anything about things that are below him [except for Nair].

So I think Bowser wins on the ground (yay jab, tilts, and grabs >:3), but in the air I think it could go either way.

50:50.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, Luigi board happened to be discussing Bowser mere days ago and the same conclusions were made. It would really be stage dependent.

 

[Cassius.]

Hmm. Well that cuts a workload in half lol.

 

[MrEh]

Go ahead and start on Weegee. This crap is not even though. Slight Luigi advantage IMO.

 

[B!squick]

Go ahead and start on Weegee. This crap is not even though. Slight Luigi advantage IMO.

:O Why's that MrEh?

 

[MrEh]

:O Why's that MrEh?

Because it's Weegee.


Jokes aside, it's because Luigi can combo the crap out of Bowser. Once he gets Bowser into the air, Luigi can make it total hell for Bowser to get back on the ground. Like Mario, Luigi can rack up damage quickly on Bowser. Unlike Mario though, Luigi can actually kill.

 

[B!squick]

Because it's Weegee.


Jokes aside, it's because Luigi can combo the crap out of Bowser. Once he gets Bowser into the air, Luigi can make it total hell for Bowser to get back on the ground. Like Mario, Luigi can rack up damage quickly on Bowser. Unlike Mario though, Luigi can actually kill.

But Mario has a cape... and a better projectile...

And weren't Luigi players saying it was 50/50? O.o

 

[MrEh]

But Mario has a cape... and a better projectile...

And weren't Luigi players saying it was 50/50? O.o

Remember, that''s just what I think. Whether I think it's 45-55 is irrelevant when this thread is based on what a majority of people say.

If everyone says it's 50-50, then that's what I'll put down.

 

[B!squick]

Well, I haven't actually really played any good Weegees, so I don't know... Tornado is annoying. :/

 

[Cassius.]

Well I personally think it's even because even though Luigi can combo us, can't we do the same to him, or at least get the same amount of damage? I mean he has the Nair and a variety of moves after that, and we have our grabs [if he gets grabbed :V] tilts and aerials. Its not like we get *****, but like MrEh said it is difficult to find breathing ground...meh....idk I still think its 50-50...it's not like Luigi is hella dangerous or anything

<.<

>.>

 

[Cassius.]

And also when it comes to offstage and edgeguarding for Bowser, Luigi's cyclone gives him crazy vertical height, but Bowser's fire beats his down b, his up b and his side b, right?

I really forget, I haven't faced Luigis in ages...let alone played Brawl these past few days. u_u

 

[Red Arremer]

^ Please don't doublepost, it's frowned upon and can result in infractions.

Finally someone pays attention to Weegee.

Okay, let's get the facts straight:
Luigi >>>>>> Bowser in the air (like it's a surprise someone is better than Bowser in the air lulz).
But... Bowser >>>>> Luigi on the ground.

Luigi is more of a close ranged character than Mario, because Luigi's Fireball is pretty bad. However, as MrEh said, Luigi also can combo the crap out of Bowser and actually kill good. Also, Luigi's Recovery is almost godlike and he's rather fast in the air.
Luigi has several moves in the air that can his us pretty bad, mainly NAir, but his Aerials in general are not bad. He also has the Missile and the Shoryuken - considering Bowser is such a huge target, pulling off the Flaming Jump Punch is easier for Luigi than with pretty much everyone else.

However, our groundgame is far better. We have our FTilt, the Jab and our Grab Release, as well as the Fire. And boy, the fire can be used here pretty well if the Luigi player isn't all too careful and comes low through the air or with an FAir. And although Weegee is a good killer, we still are the heaviest character - so we still can live longer. ;O

So yea. Generally I'd say it's pretty even and absolutely stage dependant.

 

[B!squick]

You forgot the pure **** of UTilt.

 

[Red Arremer]

Oh yeh, sowwies. UTilt raeps. ^_^

 

[hippiedude92]

Umm I think its 50:50 especially when BF or platforms in general come into play. I think the platforms protect us from any combos he can work up.

Luigi's Nair is godly and it has ******** priority...so be careful on how you attack/approach him. I think Bowser has a better ground game than Luigi IMO, but Luigi does have fireballs and his tornado, but Bowser's jab and ftilt beat his fireballs. [does the jab beat tornado?]

Bowser's Up-B is always good...but whenever I play a Luigi I always get punished anyways >:\ Being on Battlefield seriously makes me happy when playing a Luigi because of u-smash and u-tilt AND up air because Luigi can't really do anything about things that are below him [except for Nair].

So I think Bowser wins on the ground (yay jab, tilts, and grabs >:3), but in the air I think it could go either way.

50:50.

RAWR! I play as Boozer, and face one of TX's best luigi's (chic <3) on a daily basis. It's been far concluded boozers = ground game and luigi = air game. Its just like mario vs boozer but abit different in some cases. Boozer's oos upb plays a high vital role in here. So combo break anything. The only thing that benefits luigi on BF is if boozer is on a platform (he has a blind spot below him too like luigi) boozer gets combo'd crap'd and has a really hard time getting to ground. But then again, most boozers wont be in that position but thats just something to throw out and benefits better for boozer than luigi :D

Because it's Weegee.


Jokes aside, it's because Luigi can combo the crap out of Bowser. Once he gets Bowser into the air, Luigi can make it total hell for Bowser to get back on the ground. Like Mario, Luigi can rack up damage quickly on Bowser. Unlike Mario though, Luigi can actually kill.

True. But Mario has a easier time killing. His stutter step fsmash has massive range. Luigi's doesn't. Like any other matchup, if luigi's approaching, he'll have a hard time. Usually once boozer gets into the air, luigi's pretty much juggle trap and punish airdodges or anything else like with a utilted fsmash (has IASA frames and kills maybe 90s or 100s? dunno but boozer will live with good DI).

But Mario has a cape... and a better projectile...

And weren't Luigi players saying it was 50/50? O.o

I'm saying it's a 50-50 IMO. I'd go 55:45 anyday but all is fair, so 50/50 IMO lol. Yes mario has a superman cape and luigi has none Techanically in this matchup both mario's and luigi's fireball pretty work equal since they still serve its purpose as a disraction/followup/forcing approachs etc etc.

Well I personally think it's even because even though Luigi can combo us, can't we do the same to him, or at least get the same amount of damage? I mean he has the Nair and a variety of moves after that, and we have our grabs [if he gets grabbed :V] tilts and aerials. Its not like we get *****, but like MrEh said it is difficult to find breathing ground...meh....idk I still think its 50-50...it's not like Luigi is hella dangerous or anything

<.<

>.>

Lol actually, you can juggle trap him too. Once you get him in the air :D. Luigi has a hard time getting to ground since hes so floaty, all he does is airdodging/nair-ing which VERY easily punished with a pivot grab/oos upb/bait airdodge = utilt kill. Oh, and luigi's nair is def shieldgrabbable haha. But it shield pokes so better off oos upb. Luigi players have a habit of always doing a falling nair so predict and punish that. He's dangerous if he does a shoryuken on you >:{ (thats if u gtfo his range lol)

And also when it comes to offstage and edgeguarding for Bowser, Luigi's cyclone gives him crazy vertical height, but Bowser's fire beats his down b, his up b and his side b, right?

I really forget, I haven't faced Luigis in ages...let alone played Brawl these past few days. u_u

Anything beats luigi's recovery. Fight it like a ike except better recovery. Basically any move beats any of luigis recovery.

Luigi is more of a close ranged character than Mario, because Luigi's Fireball is pretty bad. .

Wat? Because you can PS/Jab/Ftilt doesn't mean it's bad lol. It's not like you can do it forever. You'll eventually get hit which serves its purpose of forcing a approach

 

[Red Arremer]

Wat? Because you can PS/Jab/Ftilt doesn't mean it's bad lol. It's not like you can do it forever. You'll eventually get hit which serves its purpose of forcing a approach

I wasn't talking about the jab etc., but rather that the fireball isn't really an awesome projectile, that's it.

 

[kigbariom]

I don't need to say any numbers, but Luigi has a starting advantage in this match-up. I don't like playing on FD, but when I fight Bowser, those empty stages are really my best choice.
Now, Luigi has this advantage because he is great against big characters. He can UpB, nair, SH aerials, lotsa bairs. I just think it's really easy for Luigi to approach Bowser. If Bowser is breathing fire, Luigi can take that damage just to get in, I remember someone saying:

It's worth the skin grafts to get the K.O

I find myself rolling around Bowser whenever he uses a smash attack, not rolling at anytime in the MU, but just when that situation is happening. That way I have a good amount of time to make sure my attack will do some damage, like an UpB from the back.

What I really want to see is what you guys have to say, because I'm always good against big characters, even DDD minus chain grab.

 

[Red Arremer]

However, Bowser has Jab, FTilt and UpB OOS as defensive options to counter your offensive ones. He also has the grab release and the Klaw.

It's really really even.

 

[kigbariom]

I don't know, I just feel Bowser is one of my easiest match-ups, and I'm not just playing noobs.
Granted I see where you are coming from, fighting Bowser makes the foreball approach harder, and his tilts can make an approach difficult of you aren't mixing it up.

As far as the Klaw goes, thats iffy, because its so situational

 

[Red Arremer]

No, it's not really situational. And Bowser is very hard to use properly.

As said, the Flaming Punch is one of the most dangerous things Luigi has in this MU cause Bowser's a big target. But don't underestimate his defensive options.

Invincibility frames on Fortress and the Grab Release can make it a hard time for Luigi.

And I wouldn't really call the Klaw situational...